Regarding the rat-in-a-maze situation, I would say that the rat definitely has free will. Our circumstances manipulate all of our choices. What "free will" means at a gut level is that one can foresee options, calculate the effects of choosing each option, and then choose the option that we judge to be "best". Even when someone holds a gun to your head, you can choose to disobey. It's just that you must calculate the risks of disobedience. The rat can choose to take the path available to it, to go back the way it came, or to remain in place. If it chooses to go forward, that is the exercise of free will.
I see what you are saying, Copernicus. I will have to think whether I agree or not... I have been living for a while with the idea that true free will doesn't exist due to the fairly deterministic nature of the universe.
In defense of my analogy, however, it was meant merely to show the strangeness in the idea that a belief in a thing makes it true regardless of what reality holds.
Willamena said:
I will! Yes, the rat in the maze analogy demonstrates free will as it choose at each turn, at each moment, the direction of its path. Every moment of existence is an opportunity to exercise free will. Regardless that someone opens and closes doors before you, you still determine your own path.
Thanks! Ok, this is like what Copernicus was saying. I can certainly see the point. I think my objection falls under the lines of something like: An omnipotent Being could manipulate you directly in order to bring about the choices it wants. You would still retain the illusion of free-will, but you wouldn't have it. Or perhaps, this being just messes with you indirectly, like my rat-maze directer. It knows you intimately, so it knows what sort of circumstances to bring about to make you choose a certain way. Hypothetically, you could choose a different option, but realistically, you never could.
Willamena said:
Yes, Santa exists to those who believe in him, simply because we believe in those things we regard to be true. If a thing isn't seen as true, then belief doesn't occur. Similarly, if a thing becomes no longer seen as true, belief is abandoned.
I just can't agree. What makes a delusional person's beliefs less valid then? I just don't see how Santa, or unicorns, or flat earth's were ever real.
Willamena said:
It still is! Just look around you, what do you see? Is what you see true, or a lie? Now that imaginary objective observer world see a different picture... And what he sees is the "truly" true picture, but then he has a whole new perspective for us that he didn't have for them, so even for him then it was "truly" true.
Appearences can be deceiving. Does the magician ever actually cut the beautiful lady in half? A flat earth is simply a faulty belief begat from limited knowledge. The belief itself never changed the actuality of the shape of the Earth. If this were so, then shouldn't have all those sailors who believed in a flat Earth have fallen over the edge somewhere? Or, shouldn't have Columbus actually landed in India as he believed, rather than a whole new set of continents?
Willamena said:
There is a perspective from which everything in the world is appearances. The world is as it appears to be. Free will, whether seen as illusion or not, is as it appears to be (illusion, or not).
That is true only according to your perspective. According to my perspective, free-will exists or does not exist irregardless of my beliefs. Both beliefs are incompatible, and thus one must be true and the other false... which is an idea incompatible with your beliefs. Relativism just creates confusion and paradox.
Hey! What happened to that Truth thread... 'cause it would make more sense for this to go in there. This is another area I find fascinating and just can't seem to wrap my mind around it.