LDS beliefs and the Bible

madhatter85 said:

the problem is that "historic" chrisitanity does not pertain to me because I believe that chrisitanity Apostasized from the true faith, Covenants, and Doctrines.

so stop beating a dead horse, if you disagree then you disagree, leave it at that. especially since you refuse to respond to my valid rebuttles to your statements.

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I think there is various interest, depending on the individual LDS member. If you objectively look at the view count, there is a large interest in this thread. You don't have to return to this particular thread. I think this is a great opporunity for all LDS members to test what your particular church teaches in regards to the other side. I'm not sure it's wise to take any religious institution's teaching without examining it's claims outside of itself. It seems very unreasonable to say something is true simply because people who claim to speak for God through self-appointed authority...to be true. The Bible is outside of ourselves, claiming to be God breathed, or revelation from the God that we both claim to know. I welcome your continued participation, or don't return to this thread if you don't want to discuss these issues. I find that a few LDS members debate with kindness, gentleness, and respect. On the other hand, some are quite hostile and mean. This is a religious forum debate site with freedom to participate or not. What a great opporunity we have to systematically compare our mutually exclusive faiths together. I think most LDS members are busy with unrespectful personal attacks instead of posting scripture to support the Mormon Faith. Non-Christians have sided with the LDS Church because in their unbelieving state, the message of the cross is foolishness to them and a big offense. Here are scriptures we both can apply.

1 Peter 3:15:
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

2 Tim 2
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Fish-Hunter you can delude yourself all you want.

I do not believe a darn thing about my own church just because "someone said so." I spent years outside of my own faith questioning and looking other places.

You do not comprehend things of a spiritual matter because you have closed the door to your spiritual self-
D&C 6:

21 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the same that came unto mine own, and mine own received me not. I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

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D&C: 88

49 The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. 50 Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

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Darkness cannot comprehend Light. Christ is Truth and light

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

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madhatter85 said:

Fish-Hunter you can delude yourself all you want.

I do not believe a darn thing about my own church just because "someone said so." I spent years outside of my own faith questioning and looking other places.

You do not comprehend things of a spiritual matter because you have closed the door to your spiritual self-
D&C 6:

D&C: 88


Darkness cannot comprehend Light. Christ is Truth and light

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I do not consider "Doctrine and Covenant" to be revelation from the Biblical God. Therefore, quoting extra-biblical revelation to a Christian who receives the Holy Bible as final authority of God has no impact. The Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone is the true and living Christ. Here are scriptures from the Christ revealed in the Holy Bible alone.

John 10

The Shepherd and His Flock

1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.

7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep (Gentiles) that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?" 21But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

John 6

Jesus the Bread of Life

25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"

32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Fish-Hunter said:

We can discuss the sovereignty of God as our next topic if that's what you desire. As with the last topic, the Bible is the source of reference to understand God on this thread. Does the God revealed in the Scriptures alone line-up with official Mormon Theology in regards to His complete or partial sovereignty.

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I have no particular desire save for some degree of rigor informing discussion. Thus far you have not been accommodating. To illustrate: there are ten points* I have noted, all of which trace to yourself as subjects, all of which you have failed to respond to or ceded the point on. In addition, there is a fundamental category mistake that undercuts your entire stance on the Pauline corpus. This was noted here as elsewhere.

As to God's sovereignty: this is also subject matter you brought forward in your various references to a Divine determinism. In that regard you have the following absurdities that confront you:

A) A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
B) A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.


The above are not things one can simply run away from or pretend the issues do not exist. Your stance is incoherent.

*The cited post notes nine points. The tenth was my introduction of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Paul's explicit notation of an apostasy.

As far as the question: "Does the God revealed in the Scriptures alone line-up with official Mormon Theology in regards to His complete or partial sovereignty(?)" The answer is, yes.

The Bible is clear that God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone, and God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. We know through Scripture that it is impossible for God to sin, and all that He does is holy, perfect, wise and right.

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If God cannot be tempted and Jesus was Divine then you must reject the story recounted in all the Synoptic Gospels on the temptation of Christ. This means the Bible is flawed. If you believe the Bible is inerrant then you must reject the idea that God cannot be tempted.

There is nothing in the Bible that says it is impossible of God to sin. If that were the case then God would not be a free agent. If God is not a free agent then He cannot be a moral being. If He cannot be a moral being then He cannot be good. This undercuts the other noted characteristics about Deity being holy and wise etc.

Please start and quote biblical scriptures to support your understanding of God.

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That is a rather large question given the number of pages that make up the Bible. Here are a few:

1) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. -Gen. 1:26

2) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: -Gen 3:22

3) Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting. -Isa. 63:16

4) Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy. Micah 7:18

5) For there is no respect of persons with God. Rom 2:11

6)Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. -John 20:17

Would you like more?

I assume you are going to present that mankind is sovereign over God in salvation.

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That is an odd assumption. Why would any theist assume that man is sovereign over God? If this is a serious statement/question, then you truly have no understanding of Mormon Thought.

Do you believe natural disasters which thousands perish happen outside the sovereignty of God; does nature have a will of it's own outside the control of God?

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If this is a categorical and If by sovereignty you mean control then obviously not. Such is an absurd notion. Deity can control things and can bring disaster i.e. what was noted happening to Sodom, but to take the ability to do as meaning that Deity is thereby doing everything (and thus controlling everything) is simply stupidity on stilts. This leads to the noted issue: "A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god."

Nature does not have a will. Nature is not a sentient being. Nature is a system that entails ecosystems in toto, weather, seasons etc. Does nature operate along random lines? Of course!

The bottom line, can you trust God according to His biblical revelation to mankind ?

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Yes, I can. Can I trust a Calvinist interpretation of that same Biblical revelation? No.

How does God reveal Himself in the Scriptures?

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God reveals Himself in the Scriptures through prophets: both anciently and today.

The Scriptures teach us three essential truths about God, truths we must believe if we are to trust Him in adversity. They are:

1. God is completely sovereign.
2. God is infinte in wisdom.
3. God is perfect in love.

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I have no issue with the above as long as sovereign is understood per its basic meaning: authority and thus the believer in the Bible holds that Deity is the ultimate authority. If one holds that "completely sovereign" means total control of everything all the time, then that cancels out points 2) and 3) as such a being must be evil given the existence of evil and God's total control.

Fish-Hunter said:

Sola Scriptura does not mean that a person can have private interpretation of Scriptures.

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If you reject private interpretation then what is the authority? At a basic level one has the text (the object to be interpreted) and the reader. A text cannot be its own interpretation as that is a logical circularity (a logical mistake). If the subject is not the interpretor and there is the "sola" meaning "sole" or "only" then no other elements may be added to the equation. This means the sola scriptura idea turns into yet another absurdity.

My understanding is historical throughout the history of the church.

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This is not correct. Your understanding as thus far presented is thoroughly a product of the 16th Century innovations of Reformed Protestantism.

Fish-Hunter said:

Orontes wanted to debate the sovereignty of God.

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I made no such request. I have spoken to a deterministic penchant that you had repeatedly referred to.

I've also noticed that most LDS members will post personal comments like yours, without dealing with the topic at hand.

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Please go back to the opening post and see what this thread is all about.

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I don't think you are in the position to speak on not dealing with the topic at hand. You have a real established pattern of not reponding to the various logical failings of your position.

The Bible is a fixed object and does not change.

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The Bible is not fixed and has changed. Protestant removal of the deuterocannon is one simple illustration.

Fish-Hunter said:

The Historic Christian Faith is very uniformed on the essentials of Biblical Christianity (Ephesians 4).

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This is simply wrong. The history of Christianity is a history of division (both along sectarian and doctrinal lines) and blood. This notion of uniformity cannot be made by one familiar with Christian history.

We seem to agree that the Mormon understanding of the gospel cannot be supported by the 13 Epistles of Paul (1/2 of the New Testament).

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Who is the plural above referring to? As I've read and participated in the thread, there are no Mormons who agree with you as I recall. I know I have personally presented three distinct Pauline verses and you have either left them unanswered or failed to show any incongruity with Mormon precept. Therefore, your claim seems flawed. In fact, I don't recall anything of substance from yourself other than this base assertion of yours. Do you have an argument to present on the subject? If not, then claiming a Mormon understanding cannot be supported by Paul is empty.

Orontes said:

This is simply wrong. The history of Christianity is a history of division (both along sectarian and doctrinal lines) and blood. This notion of uniformity cannot be made by one familiar with Christian history.



Who is the plural above referring to? As I've read and participated in the thread, there are no Mormons who agree with you as I recall. I know I have personally presented three distinct Pauline verses and you have either left them unanswered or failed to show any incongruity with Mormon precept. Therefore, your claim seems flawed. In fact, I don't recall anything of substance from yourself other than this base assertion of yours. Do you have an argument to present on the subject? If not, then claiming a Mormon understanding cannot be supported by Paul is empty.

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Not to interrupt, but hello Oro. Long time no see fellow master of the horse:unicorn:
Carry on. I agree with what Oro said:yes:

Orontes said:

This is simply wrong. The history of Christianity is a history of division (both along sectarian and doctrinal lines) and blood. This notion of uniformity cannot be made by one familiar with Christian history.



Who is the plural above referring to? As I've read and participated in the thread, there are no Mormons who agree with you as I recall. I know I have personally presented three distinct Pauline verses and you have either left them unanswered or failed to show any incongruity with Mormon precept. Therefore, your claim seems flawed. In fact, I don't recall anything of substance from yourself other than this base assertion of yours. Do you have an argument to present on the subject? If not, then claiming a Mormon understanding cannot be supported by Paul is empty.

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Okay, before we move to the sovereignty of God according to Scripture, please post Scripture references from the 14 Epistles of Paul to support the Mormon understanding of the gospel of God's grace. These are not new issues that I have presented to you. Biblical Christians have always claimed that the Mormon Church teaches a works righteousness gospel, which is not the gospel of God's grace according to the Bible or the Apostle Paul.

Fish-Hunter said:

I do not consider "Doctrine and Covenant" to be revelation from the Biblical God. Therefore, quoting extra-biblical revelation to a Christian who receives the Holy Bible as final authority of God has no impact. The Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone is the true and living Christ. Here are scriptures from the Christ revealed in the Holy Bible alone.

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How can you recieve a Book as the Final authority from god when there was never made such a statement from the bible itself.

All authority does not lay within ANY book. In the words of esteemed New Testament scholar N. T. Wright, “The risen Jesus, at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, does not say, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to the books you are all going to write,’ but [rather] ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.’ “In other words, “Scripture itself points . . . away from itself and to the fact that final and true authority belongs to God himself.” - Jeffery R Holland

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

madhatter85 said:

How can you recieve a Book as the Final authority from god when there was never made such a statement from the bible itself.

All authority does not lay within ANY book. In the words of esteemed New Testament scholar N. T. Wright, “The risen Jesus, at the end of Matthew’s Gospel, does not say, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to the books you are all going to write,’ but [rather] ‘All authority in heaven and on earth is given to me.’ “In other words, “Scripture itself points . . . away from itself and to the fact that final and true authority belongs to God himself.” - Jeffery R Holland

Matthew 28:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

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Sure, we finally agree on something. N.T. Wright is a historical Bible Christian too. We know all authority in Heaven and earth belongs to God. It always has and always will be. That is why I have brought up the sovereignity of God, because He rules and reigns with complete authority and sovereignty.

How does the One True God communicate or reveal Himself to mankind. Biblical Revelation is called special revelation. General or natural revelation is non-saving revelation given by God to all mankind (Pslam 19, and Romans 1). I think you are trying to debate how God reveals Himself. The Bible claims to be God-breathed or the Word of God. The context of this thread is defined within Biblical revelation only. If you want to debate authority and extra-biblical revelation, you need to start a new thread.

Fish-Hunter said:

Sure, we finally agree on something. N.T. Wright is a historical Bible Christian too. We know all authority in Heaven and earth belongs to God. It always has and always will be. That is why I have brought up the sovereignity of God, because He rules and reigns with complete authority and sovereignty.

How does the One True God communicate or reveal Himself to mankind. Biblical Revelation is called special revelation. General or natural revelation is non-saving revelation given by God to all mankind (Pslam 19, and Romans 1). I think you are trying to debate how God reveals Himself. The Bible claims to be God-breathed or the Word of God. The context of this thread is defined within Biblical revelation only. If you want to debate authority and extra-biblical revelation, you need to start a new thread.

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the problem is that you think the Bible is all God would give to his children, when clearly It is not a place for people to make "common ground" because each person interpits each passage of scripture differently as to destroy all confidence in them. it is far from "common Ground" but rather a Battleground unfortunately.

hence why we need continuing revelation for our time. because if the scriptures were "so plain and clear" then why would everyone have thier own interpitation?

madhatter85 said:

the problem is that you think the Bible is all God would give to his children, when clearly It is not a place for people to make "common ground" because each person interpits each passage of scripture differently as to destroy all confidence in them. it is far from "common Ground" but rather a Battleground unfortunately.

hence why we need continuing revelation for our time. because if the scriptures were "so plain and clear" then why would everyone have thier own interpitation?

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Actually, the Holy Bible is God's revelation to His elect only. Biblical truth is concealed to many, and revealed to some. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? The answer to that question can be found in the Holy Bible.

1. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
2. Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? The answer is found in the Bible. Click the link below to find out for yourself.

Bible Resources, Online Bible, Read the Bible, Search the Bible, Bible Study Plan, Passage Search, Keyword Search

In addition, only those who have been born from above, and united to Christ have the privledge to call God "Father". The old humanity or those still united to Adam are called children of disobedience, children of wrath, children of the devil, and children of darkness according to the Holy Bible. That sure does not line-up with Mormon doctrine, does it?

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. - John 1

Ephesians 2

Made Alive in Christ

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[g] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:2:

2in which you (A)formerly walked according to the course of (B)this world, according to (C)the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in (D)the sons of disobedience. - NASB

zippythepinhead said:

Not to interrupt, but hello Oro. Long time no see fellow master of the horse:unicorn:
Carry on. I agree with what Oro said:yes:

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Howdy!

Fish-Hunter said:

Okay, before we move to the sovereignty of God according to Scripture, please post Scripture references from the 14 Epistles of Paul to support the Mormon understanding of the gospel of God's grace. These are not new issues that I have presented to you. Biblical Christians have always claimed that the Mormon Church teaches a works righteousness gospel, which is not the gospel of God's grace according to the Bible or the Apostle Paul.

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Posts 824, 825 and 826 have not been responded to. Given your pattern, I assume you cannot respond or cede the points made until I see otherwise. Post 827 you quote, but don't actually engage, so I assume the points there are ceded.

To your post:


I'm not sure what a "gospel of God's grace" is as I'm not sure how you are using gospel. Are you using gospel as a synonym for doctrine? I also don't know what a Biblical Christian is. Is this simply an Evangelical like yourself? If so, then you should say Evangelical as there are no Christians I know of you don't use the Bible, so Biblical Christian would include all, or near all Christians: including Mormons which would make your statement incoherent. If by "works righteousness gospel" you mean that Mormons believe good acts actually exist and can be recognized as such: guilty as charged. If helping old women cross the street constitutes a good act and someone performs that act, then ipso facto, they have performed a good act.

To your request, you strike me as a Book of Romans man. Evangelicals typically see Romans 7 and 8 as the heart of Romans, so maybe I should give a reference from there. How about Romans 7:19-25 to Romans 8 1:2:

The passage:

19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.​

The above is a great scripture. Now, my guess is that were I to ask one like yourself the meaning I would get something like: the above demonstrates the fallen and miserable state of man. Paul speaks as a victim of his own sinful nature: constantly born down by the evils of the flesh. This wretched man can only hope for the redeemer Christ to pull him from his despair. And thus we can see it is not anything Paul, as a fallen man can do (and thus we reject the pride of any works based approach), but only through Christ that any hope is possible. Am I close?

The exegesis:

I have noted you state a few times that context is important. I agree. Context does not simply mean the verses that surround a chosen passage or even the book or the Bible proper, but actually entails the entire socio-cultural milieu any piece of literature was written in. The Greco-Roman World is the context. Paul as a Hellenized Jew was fully able to communicate to a Greek speaking audience on their own terms. A simple example would be his referencing the Greek poet Aratus when speaking to the Aeropagus on Mars Hill (Book of Acts). In Romans a similar tact is taken.

If I asked 'what is going on in verse 19?' My guess is the reply from yourself would be something connected to the notion of Original Sin and man's sinful falleness. This would be an anachronistic reading of the text that is only possible by one divorced from the linguistic-cultural context of the passage. I'll illustrate: if I asked what does "to be or not to be" mean? Some might give a response on existential angst. Most would tie it to Shakespeare. Some may even tie it to Hamlet. The above phrasing from verse 19 would have a similar impact on a Greek speaking audience. The phrase is a medean turn. What does that mean? It refers to Medea from Greek Tragedy.* The phrase is most commonly found in Euripides's "Medea':

"I am being overcome by evils. I know that what I am about to do is evil but passion is stronger than my reasoned reflection "

It can also be found in the larger literature of contemporary's and near contemporary's of Paul. For example. Epictetus:

"What he wants to do he doesn't do, and what he doesn't want he does."

Ovid's Medea:

I see the better and approve it, but I follow the worse"

Verse 24's phrase Paul's uses is almost an exact phrasing of his contemporary Seneca who wrote in his Medea Trajedy:

"O wretched woman that I am!" The phrase is "talaiporos ego anthropos".

What is going on here? Why would Paul refer to a figure from Greek myth and why this specific phrasing? The reason is because the figure of Medea and the phrasing was commonly used in the Greco-Roman world to illustrate akrasia which refers to weakness of the will or lack of self mastery. Attaining self mastery was a central principle in Greek and Roman Thought. This is why writers in Athens would often sing the praise of their mortal enemies the Spartans (often seen as those most able at self mastery). It is one of the reasons why Stoicism became the dominant ethos of the Roman world. It is also why Greco-Romans might become interested in Jewish Thought. The Law of Moses was portrayed as a vehicle for self mastery (Philo is a simple example of this). What Paul is skillfully doing in the passage is both showing how it is pathe that leads to wrong doing (hamartein), but also he is engaging in a trope when he turns the notion back on his audience. "Medea" was used as an illustration of the dangers of the foreign: the evils that can occur when the other is let within. The Romans/Greeks were very aware of the barbarorum and sought to maintain the divide. Paul's use turns the Romans/Greeks into the other vis-a-vis the Law of Moses. They are compared to the foreign Medea, the ones who have gone against the good and corrupted themselves. Once this is established, Paul then is able to show it is not adherence to a foreign law of Moses that will bring self mastery, but rather through Christ via the spirit.

The Conclusion

Now what you should notice is there is none of the stark divide between a grace vs. works dynamic which is a complete misreading of Paul's rhetoric. This also means that the very question of a "gospel of grace" is a failure to understand the text and ties into a larger mistaken Justification Theology that makes stark distinction between the saved and the other. This is common with Evangelical readings because they approach Paul as a believer and then begin to mine the text as a believer, rather than understanding who the text was actually written for and the rhetoric employed. The problem is then compounded by the base unfamiliarity with Greco-Roman Thought. The rub is basically that for the Greco-Roman, as for the Mormon, Paul's work was/is concerned with bringing the person into a relation with Deity, not drawing arbitrary justification lines in the sand and declaring who is or isn't worthy.

Fish-Hunter said:

Actually, the Holy Bible is God's revelation to His elect only. Biblical truth is concealed to many, and revealed to some. Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? The answer to that question can be found in the Holy Bible.

1. Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
2. Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Why do you think Jesus spoke in parables? The answer is found in the Bible. Click the link below to find out for yourself.

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Alas, the two verses speak to an esoteric element, but do not say anything about the Bible or the Bible being for the elect. You have committed a hasty induction. This is a logical fallacy.

Fish hunter, how does anything you said relate to my post?

Orontes said:

Alas, the two verses speak to an esoteric element, but do not say anything about the Bible or the Bible being for the elect. You have committed a hasty induction. This is a logical fallacy.

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Hi Orontes,

Are you ready to discuss the sovereignty of God according to the Holy Bible? We have to leave our own personal wisdom, and seek biblical revelation on the subject. We should be consistent with the opening post, right? Could you post the official LDS position on the subject of the sovereignty of God, free will, etc...and post scripture proofs to support the LDS doctrine on the topic? I will get off the site for the day, and look for your posting tomorrow morning. ..Lord willing. :rainbow1:

madhatter85 said:

Fish hunter, how does anything you said relate to my post?

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Hi madhatter...that's a cool name. I'm not trying to ignore you, but I have too many discussions right now with other religiousforum members. I honestly don't remember your post that you mentioned. Do you mind debating the topic of the sovereignty of God revealed in scripture with your LDS brother?

Fish-Hunter said:

Hi Orontes,

Are you ready to discuss the sovereignty of God according to the Holy Bible? We have to leave our own personal wisdom, and seek biblical revelation on the subject. We should be consistent with the opening post, right? Could you post the official LDS position on the subject of the sovereignty of God, free will, etc...and post scripture proofs to support the LDS doctrine on the topic? I will get off the site for the day, and look for your posting tomorrow morning. ..Lord willing. :rainbow1:

Click to expand...

Hmmm, there are still posts 824, 825, and 826 you have not addressed. There is also post 835 outstanding (which you specifically asked I post on) and post 836 that you quote but don't engage. This is the same thing you did with post 827. I expect you either refute the arguments in those posts, concede you have no counter or admit they are correct. The noted posts do not even count the earlier posts regarding your category mistake etc. that you have not dealt with. It isn't kosher to simply ignore posts and points that undercut your position. I noted in an earlier comment to another, you considered name calling childish. I understand. By that same token, not dealing with posts that directly frustrate your own stance is disingenuous. So, the arguments in those posts await. Either present counters, admit you cannot refute the arguments or concede to the points made.