Did Jesus say he was God???

[Muffled]

"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffled
I doubt that you have fully realized this. I need you to spell things out for me. By now you should realize that making statements without proving their validity doesn't do much for me.

Hey man you said it...I just agreed with you...........I'm trying to figure out what statements I made that aren't back by scripture....Yeshua is not God because he himself said he had a God....Well that sataement can be backedup by scripture....Jesus..in heaven had his own will...Well that can be confirmed by scripture...Yeshua was taught, sent and commanded as to what he should say.....Well, that also can be conformed by scripture........Yeshua said..I'm God..worship me...Well, that's nowhere in the scriptures (4 gospels)......."""

It certainly is a case of calling a kettle black when one is a pot.

Regards,
Scott

I don't doubt that you have provided scripture but I do not find it spelled out how you can reach your conclusions from those scriptures. It seems to me that you just jump to your conclusion without reasoning it out. That is what I am looking for, your reasoning process that leads from your premise to your conclusion.

By this reasoning if God says He has a god then He can't be God. I disagree. If God is His own god then He still is God. If God had another god then you would have a point. However it appears to me from what Jesus has said, The Father is His God and that Means that if Jesus is God, then God is God's god.

I know of no scripture to support this. Back it up!

You and Dre keep saying this but I have proven otherwise and you have not been able to refute this proof.

That is OK with me; feel free to call me to task on it anytime you wish.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I don't doubt that you have provided scripture but I do not find it spelled out how you can reach your conclusions from those scriptures.

Yes, I have provided scriptural evidence from his own mouth that shows He had his own will before coming here ( I'll get to that in a minute to answer what you said below). I have provided evidence that God taught Yeshua, instructed/commanded him what he should say. I have given evidence that he prayed to God. I have given evidence that he informed God that the task that God gave him was complete and he requested the glory he had (WITH.....not AS) God in the beginning before the earth was...before Abraham existed. In NONE...NOT ONE quote from Yeshua can you produce that confirms that he is equal to or is God. This is conjecture on your part. I often hear trinitarians say Yeshua is equal to....well if he is equal to then he is separate from.....We know that he is not equal to God because he said he wasn't. He informed us God was greater him as well as greater than all.

It seems to me that you just jump to your conclusion without reasoning it out.

I said it because it is straight from the scripture. Take a look at your reasoning.....

DreGod07
"You have failed to accurately answer why Yeshua would tell her ....."I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".

Muffled
"Perhaps I misuderstood your question. If you are askingwhy Jesus is making this statement, I can answer that it is impossible to know what motivates Jesus to make any statement."

This is what you said because this is most likely the clearest evidence in the 4 gospels that shows us Yeshua is not God. That verse seems to be a difficult one to address for some trinitarians.

That is what I am looking for, your reasoning process that leads from your premise to your conclusion.

Yeshua was taught/instructed the things he was to reveal to his people. He was commanded what he should say to them. Yeshua was sent down from heaven, not by his own will but the will Of God. He glorified God here on earth and when he was done with the task that God gave him to do he prayed to God and informed him thy will is done.

With that reasoning I can conclude He isn't God because ALL of what I said and have been saying is almost verbatim from the scripture. I would be interested to see you try to disprove that reasoning.

By this reasoning if God says He has a god then He can't be God. I disagree.

Then bring forth your OT scripture to support that. I can tell you before you get started that there is nothing there that will lead you to this reasoning.

If God is His own god then He still is God.

Again, this is not supported by scripture. Jews nor Muslims would ever subscribe to this reasoning.

If God had another god then you would have a point.

But in this case we're not talking about God having a god. We're talking about Yeshua having a god. There is is a huge difference there.

However it appears to me from what Jesus has said, The Father is His God and that Means that if Jesus is God, then God is God's god.

But now do you see how your reasoning on this is faulty? You are presenting conjecture, as I have previously stated.

" it appears to me from what Jesus has said" and "if Jesus is God, then God is God's god"

This is faulty reasoning and if you present this to a Rabbi or Imam they would laugh at such blasphemy. The only logical conclusion that can be made reading that statement is for Yeshua to have a god then he is not God.

I know of no scripture to support this. Back it up!

Joh 6:38
"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Asked and answered.

You and Dre keep saying this but I have proven otherwise and you have not been able to refute this proof.

All you've done is give us conjecture and presented us with the opinions of those who never met or knew Yeshua. The information you list from the 4 gospels are out of context and they have been dealt with.

 

[Popeyesays]

=

By this reasoning if God says He has a god then He can't be God. I disagree. If God is His own god then He still is God. If God had another god then you would have a point. However it appears to me from what Jesus has said, The Father is His God and that Means that if Jesus is God, then God is God's god.

Tell me, do you ever run into your own back when you argue in such tight circles?

Regards,

Scott

 

[Muffled]

"You have failed to accurately answer why Yeshua would tell her ....."I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God".

This is what you said because this is most likely the clearest evidence in the 4 gospels that shows us Yeshua is not God.That verse seems to be a difficult one to address for some trinitarians.

I find no such evidence in this verse that Jesus isn't God in the flesh. I have no trouble with this verse because it has nothing to do with the divinity of Jesus. You have simply jumped to a false conclusion and since you don't even have any resoning you can't present it. My reasoning that God is God's god is not dependant on scripture. If God has another god beside himself He is no longer God because the meaning of God is the all powerful one. (El Shadai)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I find no such evidence in this verse that Jesus isn't God in the flesh.

Sure it does. You just choose to see with a closed mind. Why would God have to go and be with his god?

Why would God tell us he was sent, not by his will, but the will of God that sent him?

Why would God tell us he was taught, instructed and commanded as to what he should say?

Why does God pray to himself?

Why does God not know the day nor the hour but tells us only he knows the day and the hour?

Why did God pray to himself and say that the work that he gave himself was finished and he wanted to be glorified with the glory he had with himself before the world was?

This is why Yeshua isn't God. God did not reveal himself in this manner when looking through the scripture. You reason that Yeshua was his own father and he was his own son and he blessed himself with the holy power of himself.......

This is illogical and this is not how God is described in the OT and as I've said before you could not take this reasoning to a Rabbi or an Imam and expect to be taken seriously.

This verse is just one of the many verses where he lets us know that he is not God and he is less than God. Every opportunity for him to reveal himself as God he failed to do so. The vague statements that christians pull out to prove his deity are all out of context.

You can disagree all you like but there is no information from the lips of Yeshua in the 4 gospels that shows or proves he is God.

I have no trouble with this verse because it has nothing to do with the divinity of Jesus.

No one is questioning the divinity of Yeshua. We are questioning his deity and how trinitarians come to the conclusion he is God when he himself gave proof that he wasn't.

You have simply jumped to a false conclusion and since you don't even have any resoning you can't present it.

I did no such thing. It is the trinitarians that have jumped to the false conclusion he is God in the flesh regadless of the fact that he himself shows that he isn't. I have prsented my reasoning. You just don't agree with it. Yeshua reasoned he was not God but the son of God, the servant of God....and he was less than God...But you don't seem to agree with that either and if you do agree with that then he can not be God.

My reasoning that God is God's god is not dependant on scripture.

But you came to this conclusion by studying the gospels and the books and letters by the opinions of men thus making interpretation that Yeshua must be God.

If God has another god beside himself He is no longer God because the meaning of God is the all powerful one. (El Shadai)

Very true....so for you to reason that "God" made the statement that he will return to his father, our father and his God and our God is illogical. Again, take that statement to any Rabbi or any Imam and they would NEVER come the conclusion you have. The book of John if full of Yeshua expressing himself in the second or third person but never the first. How many times does he need to say he came not of his own will, he was taught, he was commanded, he was given and he was finished with the task that God gave him to do.....for people to realize he isn't God.

 

[rocketman]

Jesus was called "The Son" because He was born of a woman. That was needed for Him to be 100% human (as well as 100% God)

Exactly. This answers all questions about how God could 'talk to himself' etc. Unfortuantely many today have trouble with this concept. At least the Jews of the day understood. No one can ignore their disgust at what Jesus was doing/saying and then proceed to conveniently pick other verses from the same manuscripts to back up their own ideas and still expect to have a credible argument. Better to ignore anyone who does that I think.

 

[Popeyesays]

The whole 100%+100% argument is nonsensical.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Exactly. This answers all questions about how God could 'talk to himself' etc.

This is nonsense.

When they accused him of portraying to be God he cleared it all up and they still misunderstood what he was tryting to tell them. He said that (God blessed) him and sent him into the world and he was the son of God and they were one in purpose.

That was something they didn't want to hear and at that point it would have been nothing else he could say to change their minds because their minds were made up and they wanted to kill him.

 

[rocketman]

Hosea 13:4: "You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior but me."

Matt 1:20,21: "..an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is convceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins..' "

Luke 2:9-11: "An angel of the Lord appeared to them....Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord."

Luke 19:9: "Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house ...for the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.." v44: "You did not recognise the time of God's coming to you.."

Matt 26:63-65 "..are you the Christ..?..'Yes, it is as you say'... why do we need any more witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy."

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Hosea 13:4: "You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior but me."

First of all this verse has nothing...NOT ONE THING to do with Yeshua. This is about God, not Yeshua.....There is a big difference. God can and has saved his (creation) plenty of times and God didn't have to come down from heaven to do it. You are under the impression that because God said there is "no saviour but me" that this is Yeshua speaking and it's not. This is God speaking to a specific group of people. Let's look and see if God is the only one who can save.

Isaiah 19:20
And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto God because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

They shall cry out to God and HE sall send them a saviour. Just because saviour is mentioned in the bible it doesn't always have to refer to Yeshua.

Matt 1:20,21: "..an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said 'Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is convceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins..' "

Again, this is in line with Isaiah 19:20...God sends saviours..No problem here.....but it has nothing to do with God being the only saviour and everything to do with God sending a saviour. There is NO information in any of the NT scriptures that says God sent himself.

Luke 19:9: "Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house ...for the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost..

I wasn't going to respond to this one but I'm left wondering what's the point of focusing on the word (save) here. So Yeshua was a saviour. We know he was. He was a saviour to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you have listed above, Matthew 1:20, 21 confirms this where the angel says Yeshua will save HIS PEOPLE (lost sheep) from THEIR SINS.... Yeshua confirms that as well in Luke 19:9 where he says "Salvation has come to THIS HOUSE"......but all that aside, there's nothing in any of that to show proof that he is God.

" v44: "You did not recognise the time of God's coming to you.."

It took me a while...I mean a long time to try and figure out where you got this verse from. This is an incorrect translation. That translation is not in ANY of the bibles I have. Can you share with us the bible and the date of the bible you are using? I couldn't find the word used for God in the Latin Vulgate or any of the Greek translations I have.

Matt 26:63-65 "..are you the Christ..?..'Yes, it is as you say'... why do we need any more witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy."

It would be nice to see the whole quote but you snipped pieces of the conversation and that does it no justice. The question was asked (Are you the Christ)...and here is what he (ACTUALLY) said...

Matthew
26:63 But Yeshua (Jesus) held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Messiah, the Son of the Almighty.

26:64 Yeshua (Jesus) saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The question was asked and he said (YOU....said I am). Note he does not say YES in that verse to confirm nor deny who he was. For you to be sure I'm not pulling a fast one on you, I'm actually quoting from a KJV of the bible which is the one that a lot of people seem to use because it would appear that you are using a bible that is highly flawed in its translations. If this is the case then I can see how people can get the wrong impression as to who Yeshua was. The scriptures being used are mistranslated to make him appear as though he was God when other bibles clearly show that he isn't nor did he ever claim to be. I normally use a Revised Standard Version because In my opinion it's a better and more accurate translation. You may need to invest in a Revised King James Version if the KJV is the one you like. But again, that verse has nothing to do with him being God....at all.......

 

[rocketman]

This is about God, not Yeshua.....

It establishes that we are not to acknowledge anyone else as Savior except God. The word Savior here is almost always written with a capital 'S' unlike Isaiah 19:20 which is not titular. We see the same capitalisation and titular inference in Matthew etc. There is a definite 'authority to save' implied, regardless of the instrument of that salvation. Combine that with the 'only one God' scenario and the "Son of Man" takes on a more profound meaning. If Jesus is not God, then God cannot take the credit as Savior. How can God give his 'only begotten' Son when he says he has no offspring (no other Gods)? The 'Son'(human body) he gave was himself.

God can and has saved his (creation) plenty of times and God didn't have to come down from heaven to do it.

Imagine for a minute that he did: Everything about Jesus's conduct would fit. The difference of opinion we have here is not in the finer detail of the interelation between Father and Son, which you say shows '2'. It is rather in the requirements of the Savior. If you don't think the Savior needed to be God, then your interpretaion kind of fits in a rough and ready way, with some glossing over of verses such as John 1:1. and Jesus constant blasphemy. If on the other hand only God was qualified for the job, then God in a human body subject to the legal system we are would be bound by the rules and commands he laid out for us and would have to follow them all, including prayer etc. So you see, nothing you say about the details even remotely challenges the diety of Jesus IF God himself was the only one qualified to do the job. That being the case, everything is as it should be.

There is NO information in any of the NT scriptures that says God sent himself.

John 1:1,14: "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... The Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

Phip 2:7-8 "..Who, being in very nature God...but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.."

Col 2:9 "..For in Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form.."

So Yeshua was a saviour. We know he was.

Glad we agree that he was a savior. Now how did he save? He said himself that he had to be executed. John the baptist called him the 'lamb of God' who would take away the sins of the world. So he had to die, just as lambs were offered up at the temple. Why? Because the Law demanded it. It was either him or us. That's how he saved us.

So, whoever the lamb was, he had to be worth more than all of us put together, blameless (and thus free of deserving the penalty for himself) and of our type (son of Man/Adam). Whoever Jesus was he kept pointing out that he was indeed a physical man, in fact he wouldn't shut up about it .."the Son of Man.." every five minutes and so on. He also said he existed from ancient times and once shared God's glory (even though God says in the OT that he does not share his glory). He must have sounded up himself to some people.

When they asked John the baptist who he was, he quoted Isaiah 40:3 as if it applied to himself: "(I am) A voice of one calling in the desert prepare the way for the YHWH.." He didn't say he was preparing the way for an angel, or some odd creature of a type we know not, or even a God-offspring, including an eternal 'partial' God, all of which would have been blasphemous eg: Is44:8 "Is there any God besides me?.. I know not one.." and 43:10 "..before me no God was formed, nor will there be one after me." It's the born of woman bit you seem to miss : "For God so loved the world that he gave his only [born of woman] Son.." You and I are not begotten sons of God. Jesus was the only one, yet according to Jesus there is only one God, so who was the Son? It should be obvious.

It took me a while...I mean a long time to try and figure out where you got this verse from. This is an incorrect translation. That translation is not in ANY of the bibles I have.

Luke 19:44

NIV: "They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

CEV: "Not one stone in your buildings will be left on top of another. This will happen because you did not see that God had come to save you. "

NLV: "There will not be one stone on another. It is because you did not know when God visited you."

TNIV: "They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

It would be nice to see the whole quote but you snipped pieces of the conversation and that does it no justice. The question was asked (Are you the Christ)...and here is what he (ACTUALLY) said...

Irrelevant. See Matt 16:16,17 for example. Jesus admitted he was the Christ.

Your ideas hang on the premise that someone lesser than God could be equal to all of us put together and also be blameless and also of our type (after our image) and so could die in our place. If such a sinless being can exist who is of our type and existed long before us, then why make flawed man? Why not just make more Jesus-beings??? This is one of many places where your argument bottoms out. Not to mention your view that the experts of the law of Jesus day were behaving in a disingenuous fashion throughout Jesus' ministry and the implication that the strict monotheism of Judaism never really existed. None of which can be supported by scripture or history. I'm yet to see an alternative take on this issue that convincingly accounts for all of the associated theology. Still, believe what you like. At least we agree he was the Savior.

Well, work is about to catch up with me in a big way over the next few weeks so that's it from me for now. Peace Dre.

 

[Muffled]

[/color]

Sure it does. You just choose to see with a closed mind. Why would God have to go and be with his god?

Why would God tell us he was sent, not by his will, but the will of God that sent him?

Why would God tell us he was taught, instructed and commanded as to what he should say?

Why does God pray to himself?

Why does God not know the day nor the hour but tells us only he knows the day and the hour?

Why did God pray to himself and say that the work that he gave himself was finished and he wanted to be glorified with the glory he had with himself before the world was?

This is why Yeshua isn't God. God did not reveal himself in this manner when looking through the scripture. You reason that Yeshua was his own father and he was his own son and he blessed himself with the holy power of himself.......

This is illogical and this is not how God is described in the OT and as I've said before you could not take this reasoning to a Rabbi or an Imam and expect to be taken seriously.

This verse is just one of the many verses where he lets us know that he is not God and he is less than God. Every opportunity for him to reveal himself as God he failed to do so. The vague statements that christians pull out to prove his deity are all out of context.

You can disagree all you like but there is no information from the lips of Yeshua in the 4 gospels that shows or proves he is God.




No one is questioning the divinity of Yeshua. We are questioning his deity and how trinitarians come to the conclusion he is God when he himself gave proof that he wasn't.



I did no such thing. It is the trinitarians that have jumped to the false conclusion he is God in the flesh regadless of the fact that he himself shows that he isn't. I have prsented my reasoning. You just don't agree with it. Yeshua reasoned he was not God but the son of God, the servant of God....and he was less than God...But you don't seem to agree with that either and if you do agree with that then he can not be God.




But you came to this conclusion by studying the gospels and the books and letters by the opinions of men thus making interpretation that Yeshua must be God.




Very true....so for you to reason that "God" made the statement that he will return to his father, our father and his God and our God is illogical. Again, take that statement to any Rabbi or any Imam and they would NEVER come the conclusion you have. The book of John if full of Yeshua expressing himself in the second or third person but never the first. How many times does he need to say he came not of his own will, he was taught, he was commanded, he was given and he was finished with the task that God gave him to do.....for people to realize he isn't God.

You can not see something from words, you can only read the words and understand their meaning. I have a very open mind and don't mind adressing the issues at hand.
You have not reasoned anything from this verse only asked a question. You expect me to read God's mind and know why He had to go. I can only speculate from the context. Jesus had just been crucified and the people who wished to kill him would probably try to kill him again. I say this because they wished to kill Lazarus because he had been raised from the dead. Also God had completed His purpose for being on earth in a body and no longer needed to be here.

Because the physical mind of the body has a separate will from the mind of the spirit. This is true for all of us. Our physical being does not define our identity that comes from our spirit and the physical mind strives with the spiritual mind. Paul described this battle well in Rom 7. What else would you call it for God to enter into a body in distinction from not being in the body, except a sending. I suppose that you thinl that a sending implies a separate spiritbut that is not necessarily the case. In a sense when I send a letter do I not send an expression of myself? God has sent an exact expression of Himself in the person of Jesus. It also is a sending because it proceeds from God and ends up in a body ie. God has proceeded from a purley spiritual state into a physical state. Jesus could not proceed himself because there was not a separate spirit to do so. Jesus only exists because the spirt of God is in a body. In other words there was no other pre-existing spirit. Eph. 4:4

The explanation is the same as previously explained. The mind of the body needs to be taught, instructed and commanded by the spirit.

For our benefit.

God will not retain His manifestation as Jesus that long.

I don't see any valid reasoning here on your part.

I don't mind dealing with their irrationality if they wish to express it but your irrationality is enough for me for now.

Even though you haven't provided any proof as to why God can't talk to Himself, send himself etc., I have proof that He can: Mt 19:26And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Muffled]

NLV: "There will not be one stone on another. It is because you did not know when God visited you."

NLV is not a strict translation. This is what the ASV says:
Luke 19:44 and shall dash thee to the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

My NASB says the same thing.

I appreciated the input. I think the fact that only God is Savior is in the OP, but it is nice to see a discourse on it.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

It establishes that we are not to acknowledge anyone else as Savior except God.

I have no problem with God being the saviour and I can aknowledge that he sent Yeshua to save his (lost sheep of the house of Israel) people from the lives they were living even though there is no mention from the lips of Yeshua...him saying he was the "saviour"...that was a description that people gave him....

The word Savior here is almost always written with a capital 'S' unlike Isaiah 19:20 which is not titular.

It would interesting if you could be the first person in history to find capitalization in aramaic, hebrew, arabic or greek.

We see the same capitalisation and titular inference in Matthew etc. There is a definite 'authority to save' implied, regardless of the instrument of that salvation.

Who cares if the scholars rendered that word with capital letters.......? No uppercases or lowecases in greek...that I know of...

Originally Posted by DreGod07
God can and has saved his (creation) plenty of times and God didn't have to come down from heaven to do it.

Imagine for a minute that he did:

Here's the problem right here...I'm not the one "imagining" he did. The scriptures show very clearly he did not come down from heaven because he was God and he wanted to save us. The scriptures tell us he was SENT by God....

The difference of opinion we have here is not in the finer detail of the interelation between Father and Son, which you say shows '2'. It is rather in the requirements of the Savior.

I don't care whether we consider him saviour or not. It has nothing to do with the father son relationship. The fact of the matter is, it is 2. It's the very way that Yeshua expresses it.

If you don't think the Savior needed to be God, then your interpretaion kind of fits in a rough and ready way, with some glossing over of verses such as John 1:1.

There was no need for me to take that verse as a testamony of Yeshua's deity. Shucks, I'm still waiting for the scholars to make up their minds and come to some agreement on the translation of that verse. In all reality, it doesn't matter. I can't help it if the writer of John presumed Yeshua was God and wrote it as such.. Although that is in striking contrast to the accounts of Yeshua's ministry the writer documented.

John
4:34 Yeshua saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

This is just one of dozens of quotes from the writer where he reveals Yeshua informing us his mission was that he was sent here by God to do the will of God.

If on the other hand only God was qualified for the job, then God in a human body subject to the legal system we are would be bound by the rules and commands he laid out for us and would have to follow them all, including prayer etc.

Nonsense..... God of the OT was not and could not be bound by its creation thus "having" to following the laws of that which he created. Ask a rabbi or an imam if God prays to himself. There no information in the OT to suggest this at all. Yeshua left no information to show that God prayed to himself or was subject to will of his creation.

Now how did he save? He said himself that he had to be executed. John the baptist called him the 'lamb of God' who would take away the sins of the world. So he had to die, just as lambs were offered up at the temple. Why? Because the Law demanded it. It was either him or us. That's how he saved us.

So, whoever the lamb was, he had to be worth more than all of us put together, blameless (and thus free of deserving the penalty for himself) and of our type (son of Man/Adam).

Ezekiel
18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Whoever Jesus was he kept pointing out that he was indeed a physical man, in fact he wouldn't shut up about it .."the Son of Man.." every five minutes and so on.

Tells you somethin' huh......??????

Yeshua seems to have to constantly inform his followers that he is just a man, a servant of his father, our father and his god and our god and he was sent by God, not of his own will, but of the the will of God to complete a task that God gave him to do.

He also said he existed from ancient times and once shared God's glory (even though God says in the OT that he does not share his glory). He must have sounded up himself to some people.

Can you post that OT Verse. I wanted to look at it but can't seem to find it.

When they asked John the baptist who he was, he quoted Isaiah 40:3 as if it applied to himself: "(I am) A voice of one calling in the desert prepare the way for the YHWH..

So far nothing is there from John the baptist to suggest that he believed God was coming. He knew Yeshua was the son of God because that is what he called him.

" He didn't say he was preparing the way for an angel, or some odd creature of a type we know not, or even a God-offspring, including an eternal 'partial' God,

Nor did he say he was preparing a way for God......He called Yeshua the son OF God and the lamb OF God.....He never viewed Yeshua as God.

It's the born of woman bit you seem to miss : "For God so loved the world that he gave his only [born of woman] Son..

Shucks, I didn't miss that and really, in the grand scheme of things that has nothing to do with him being God. I know he was born of a woman...

" You and I are not begotten sons of God.

But not Yeshua...but that's a subject for a long forgotten debate.....

Jesus was the only one, yet according to Jesus there is only one God, so who was the Son? It should be obvious.

Heck, I never doubted Yeshua being a son God's. Where did I do that? God has lots of sons.....

Genesis 6:2
The sons of God....................

Job 1:6
And there was a day when the sons of God came together before the Lord.........

Luke 3:38
The son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God......

Luke 20:36
And death has no more power over them, for they are equal to the angels, and are sons of God...........

Matthew 5:9
Happy are the peacemakers: for they will be named sons of God.

Luke 19:44

NIV: "They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

CEV: "Not one stone in your buildings will be left on top of another. This will happen because you did not see that God had come to save you. "

NLV: "There will not be one stone on another. It is because you did not know when God visited you."

TNIV: "They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

Again, they appear to be incorrect. Even Muffled agrees with me on the translation of NLV (At least on that verse). I admonish you to get an RSV bible.

The RSV was translated by 32 scholars of the highest emminence, backed by 50 cooperating denominations and here's what they had to say,

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation"

 

[rocketman]

Can you post that OT Verse. I wanted to look at it but can't seem to find it.

I'm totally behind time now but I am not one to ignore a request.

As requested:

Is 42:8 NKJV "I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images."

Is 48:11 NKJV "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."

Jn 17:5 NKJV "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Some more reading if anyone is interested. Link. Link. Link. Link. Link.

I really have to go now. See you in a few weeks.

Is 40:3 NKJV "A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the YHWH ...."

 

[blackout]

RocketMan....

She packed my bags last night pre-flight
Zero hour nine a.m.
And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then
I miss the earth so much I miss my wife
It's lonely out in space
On such a timeless flight

And I think it's gonna be a long long time
Till touch down brings me round again to find
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Oh no no no I'm a rocket man
Rocket man burning out his fuse up here alone

Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids
In fact it's cold as hell
And there's no one there to raise them if you did
And all this science I don't understand
It's just my job five days a week
A rocket man, a rocket man

And I think it's gonna be a long long time...

~Elton John~

(enjoy the cosmos...
and have a safe flight back....)

 

[Muffled]

I have no problem with God being the saviour and I can aknowledge that he sent Yeshua to save his (lost sheep of the house of Israel) people from the lives they were living even though there is no mention from the lips of Yeshua...him saying he was the "saviour"...that was a description that people gave him....


I admonish you to get an RSV bible.

The RSV was translated by 32 scholars of the highest emminence, backed by 50 cooperating denominations and here's what they had to say,

"Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century, the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation"

Joh 12:47And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

I grew up on the KJV and there is not an egregious problem with it. There are errors in translation as there are with the RSV which I don't consider to be all that hot. God told me to use the NASB and I have had no issues with it. The NIV isn't too far from it either. The NKJV seems to have cleared up the errors in the KJV.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I'm totally behind time now but I am not one to ignore a request.

As requested:

Is 42:8 NKJV "I am the LORD, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images."

Is 48:11 NKJV "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do this. How can I let myself be defamed? I will not yield my glory to another."

Jn 17:5 NKJV "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Thanks for the quotes. Either God is lying when he says he will (NOT give his glory to another) or Yeshua is delusional when he requested God to glorify him with his glory HE HAD WITH GOD before the earth was. I don't think so. I see God in the scripture holding back his glory and giving it to whom he wants. Yeshua wouldn't had ask for God's glory if God had NEVER given his glory to some one.

Jeremiah 30:19 (NOTE: This scroll comes AFTER the scroll of Isaiah)
And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.


John 12:28 (NOTE this is from Yeshua)
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

In the above verse Yeshua asks for God's glory and once again a voice from the heavens makes an affirmation. Remember back when he was being baptized and the holy spirit decended upon him and God spoke from the heavens and said this is my son whom I am well pleased? Well, here's God speaking again....NOT YESHUA....saying he does glorify others. This wasn't the "SON/GOD" making a statement....This was the son of God making a request. No where in the scripture does God request anything of himself. If Yeshua does not have the Glory and only God has the glory and Yeshua has to ask God for the glory then Yeshua could not have been God. This is all confirmed by the scripture. I don't say these things as though I'm pulling them out of thin air. Yeshua said it and he gave us clear evidence of their separateness.

John 17:1
These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

This is just the beginning. That whole chapter is a PRAYER (TO) GOD. This isn't God praying. There is no information in the scriptures to suggest that God prays or prays to himself.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

God would not have to request a thing. ALL is his....He created it.....but Yeshua would have to act this way because he's not God. He is the prophet/messenger of God....sent here to do the will of the ONE who sent him.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

You can not see something from words,

But yet we are to gaze upon the MANY verses of Yeshua expressing himself not to be God.....and (believe) that he is?

John 12:28
Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

There's that voice from heaven again.

John 17:1
These words spake Yeshua, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

You have not reasoned anything from this verse only asked a question.

Actually I did both. I reasoned that Yeshua is not God because he said he wasn't.

Also God had completed His purpose for being on earth in a body and no longer needed to be here.

I see....So when Yeshua says God taught him..it is to say he taught himself..when it says God gave him a command as to what he should say he was really letting us know that he commanded himself... (does this mean he had his own will and if he went against himself and didn't follow the commandment he gave himsel he would destroy himself ????:areyoucra).....So when he says God sent him he was actually saying he sent himself..........so on and so on and so on.......

You can answer if you like....but you don't have to because it wouldn't make any sense....

Because the physical mind of the body has a separate will from the mind of the spirit. This is true for all of us. Our physical being does not define our identity that comes from our spirit and the physical mind strives with the spiritual mind. Paul described this battle well in Rom 7. What else would you call it for God to enter into a body in distinction from not being in the body, except a sending. I suppose that you thinl that a sending implies a separate spiritbut that is not necessarily the case. In a sense when I send a letter do I not send an expression of myself? God has sent an exact expression of Himself in the person of Jesus. It also is a sending because it proceeds from God and ends up in a body ie. God has proceeded from a purley spiritual state into a physical state. Jesus could not proceed himself because there was not a separate spirit to do so. Jesus only exists because the spirt of God is in a body. In other words there was no other pre-existing spirit. Eph. 4:4

Well you have your interpretation........ I think I'm going to see it the way Yeshua saw it. I think I'm going to see them separate as he saw it......

John
8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.

8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

8:38 I speak that which I have seen (with) my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

8:54 Yeshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

He saw it as he was one in purpose but NEVER one in the same.

For our benefit.

Nonsense.....

Even though you haven't provided any proof as to why God can't talk to Himself, send himself etc.

There's no proof that he did....Why must you speculate that he did?

I have proof that He can: Mt 19:26And Jesus looking upon them said to them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

You rationalize that because all things are possible to God he "possibly" talked to himself...He "possibly" prayed to himself........but you never proved that it was the way that you interpreted it.

If the requirement is that it was "possible" then the Mormons have gotten it right and the JW's got it right (Doctrine in all)....It's possible the muslims got it right (Muhammed is the last messenger).....but I can bet you you're not a follower of any of these faiths....

It goes without saying...that with God all things are possible but that wasn't the case here with Yeshua. There is no scriptural evidence to support the theory he is God.....

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Joh 12:47And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

I'm fine with that one. I just missed that verse. But as I recall, I did say I certainly don't see a problem with him being a saviour.

I grew up on the KJV and there is not an egregious problem with it. There are errors in translation as there are with the RSV which I don't consider to be all that hot. God told me to use the NASB and I have had no issues with it. The NIV isn't too far from it either. The NKJV seems to have cleared up the errors in the KJV.

The revised king james version is ok...It's not what I'd like to use but I often quote from it because the RKJV is the one a lot of people are familiar with. I don't like some of the other ones out there becaue of the obvious mistranlations or the additions of wors where there isn't in other bible. I personally like what that council did when creating the RSV. I'm happy when 32 christian scholars get together to make changes and take out a few things that weren't in the older text...and to be backed by 50 cooperating denomination is the cherry on top (for now)....