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The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I realize that. I am not convinced as to how life originated. Except by "God's hand," i.e., His creative power.
"God's hand" does not constitute a "how." It's a claim of agency, nothing more.

The upshot is:
Religion is a claim of magic and agency, based on no objective evidence.
Science is an explanation of mechanism, based on tested, observable, reviewed and reproduced, objective evidence.
Reasonably, which seems more likely; more well founded?

Why do you embrace the unfounded, unevidenced alternative?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I must say that I don't agree with everything @TrueBeliever37 believes, but I must also say that question about leprechauns is ridiculous.
The leprechaun question is a good analogy.
People don't believe in leprechauns because there is no objective evidence they exist. Yet they believe biblical claims despite an equivalent lack of evidence.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Hi Polymath257,

That's one of the reasons I have a problem with evolution. If it was really true that evolution is the way different species came to be, then there shouldn't be such gaps in the fossil records.

Knowing how fossilization actually happens, it's actually amazing that we have as many fossils as we do.
Gaps in the fossil record are not only expected, they are inevitable.

This has nothing to do with evolution being accurate or not. How many fossils we can expect to find is determined by the process for fossils to form.
In terms of evolution, it's more like: IF we find fossils, we expect such and such. And the fossils we DO find, completely fit an evolutionary history.

We don't find rabbits in pre-cambrian strata, for example.

There should be smooth transition.

And there is. This is apparent even with the little fossils that we have available. Here are a few examples:

horses:

1709730363123.png


whale ancestral feet when their ancestors still lived on land, to the flippers they have today

1709730565283.png


Human ancestral skulls

1709730777713.png


1709730793346.png



There are many many many many more, off course.

There should be more intermediate/transitional forms between different species. It should be the norm.
It is the norm.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Sorry, but I just don't believe you really have evidence from a billion years ago.

Your belief is irrelevant though, nor is it required.

Facts are facts.

Even if you did, you talk about something lending itself to errors and misinterpretation.
"even if you're right, you're still wrong".


aka "heads i win, tails you loose"

The definition of closedminded dogmatism.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You don't understand that simple concept?

"I don't believe X is true"
"I believe X is false".

Do you understand the difference between these two? They are not equivalent statements.

I'll give you an analogy. The gumball machine.

There is this gumball machine with an unknown number of gumballs in it. That number is either uneven or even.
We don't know which it is and we are unable to open the machine to count them.

Some guy comes up and says "I claim there is an even number of gumballs in the machine, do you believe this claim?"
And note that "believe" means = to accept as true; to commit to the claim as being true/accurate.

You say "no", since you don't know if it is even or uneven, so you can't commit to the claim that it IS even as being true.

Does you answering "no" to that question mean that you now will say "yes" to the question "do you believe the claim that the number of gumballs is UNEVEN?"


Rationally, your answer should be "no" again.


So, to sum up: saying you do NOT believe the claim "it is even", does NOT mean you believe the claim that it is "uneven" nor does it mean that you believe that the claim that is even is false (believing that it is false would mean you believe it is uneven).


Do you understand now?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You can't prove that. It's only speculation.
No. It's demonstrated by DNA.

Just like the DNA of you and your sister demonstrates that you share parents.
Additionally, we have evidence of life existing as far back as 3.5-3.8 billion years ago, off course.


Well.... that, or the entity that created you and your supposed sister went out of his way to plant false evidence to make your DNA look as if she was your sister.

Sure, technically, that is possible I suppose.

Just like it is technically possible that this house didn't burn down, but that it was just build that way:

1709731307767.png
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I realize that. I am not convinced as to how life originated. Except by "God's hand," i.e., His creative power.

Which is irrelevant to the question of evolution. Evolution is what happens *after* life gets going. The evidence for evolution is independent of anything to do with abiogenesis. Even if there was 'God's hand' to get life started, the evidence for evolution is *still* conclusive.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I think many involved in science want there not to be a God so bad, they go to almost any lengths to find a way to convince themselves he doesn't exist.
Science says nothing at all about gods and plenty of scientists (who see no need to reject science) believe in god.

So I have no idea what you are talking about.

I think you might be confusing your wizard god who created everything proverbially last thursday with any god one could potentially believe in.
There are many god concepts, including incarnations of the christian god, which do not require people to reject the evidence of reality at all, you know....
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Knowing how fossilization actually happens, it's actually amazing that we have as many fossils as we do.
Gaps in the fossil record are not only expected, they are inevitable.

This has nothing to do with evolution being accurate or not. How many fossils we can expect to find is determined by the process for fossils to form.
In terms of evolution, it's more like: IF we find fossils, we expect such and such. And the fossils we DO find, completely fit an evolutionary history.

We don't find rabbits in pre-cambrian strata, for example.



And there is. This is apparent even with the little fossils that we have available. Here are a few examples:

horses:

View attachment 89100

whale ancestral feet when their ancestors still lived on land, to the flippers they have today

View attachment 89101

Human ancestral skulls

View attachment 89102

View attachment 89103


There are many many many many more, off course.


It is the norm.
Horse evolution is very well supported by evolution and as a result is the victim of dishonest quote mining by creationists. There are over fifty species of "horses" in their history. The quote mining that you will here is that the relatively simple picture that evolution did not occur as portrayed in the picture that you linked. Of course creationists will quote mine it to mean that it never happened. But what we know instead is that it is far more complex than the simple ABCD pictures that we see. There are all sorts of offshoots that have their own small trees before they went extinct and even with modern "horses" we have the domestic horse, Przewalski's horses, (these two can fertilely interbreed even though they have a different number of chromosome pairs, just as had to be the case in our own history), donkeys (three species and I can't say the more proper "***"), and three species of zebras. Those are all from the last surviving branch, and like all life when a group is narrowed down to one species and then spreads all over much of the Earth it once again undergoes speciation. For the horses we see at least eight species today.

So as a preemptive strike here is a link to the quote mine that your post is likely to generate:

 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"basic" cause and effect?

What you refer to by "basic" is actually just classical newtonian-style physics as it applies within a space-time continuum.

Debatable.

There is no phenomenon of causality as we know it at the quantum level.

Not true as every single book I have read on BB cosmology deals with various hypotheses on what led to the BB with one exception. The first time I ran across non-causation was a hypothesis on this from Hawking. But he didn't claim that this is what happened but that it was hypothetically possible.

To ask about "what happened 'before' the universe" thus becomes asking "what happened 'before' time" which is a non-sensical question.

Our minute universe likely expanded for a reason, so the question is what was that reason.

And then there's string theory, so ... :shrug:
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Debatable.



Not true as every single book I have read on BB cosmology deals with various hypotheses on what led to the BB with one exception. The first time I ran across non-causation was a hypothesis on this from Hawking. But he didn't claim that this is what happened but that it was hypothetically possible.



Our minute universe likely expanded for a reason, so the question is what was that reason.

And then there's string theory, so ... :shrug:
I would say that Hawking's work is not a fact yet, but it is getting close. It is possible that it may not be quite right. But from my limited understanding the math for it is very very strong, and that part of the sciences right now can only be modeled and tested mathematically. Could the math be wrong? Yes, but am not going to be the one that refutes it. At least no one has come knocking on my door asking me to do that yet. <darn>
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would say that Hawking's work is not a fact yet, but it is getting close. It is possible that it may not be quite right. But from my limited understanding the math for it is very very strong, and that part of the sciences right now can only be modeled and tested mathematically. Could the math be wrong? Yes, but am not going to be the one that refutes it. At least no one has come knocking on my door asking me to do that yet. <darn>

I agree, and imo, there's strength in saying "I don't know".

But one thing that I know Hawking is 100% correct on, and that is "he's a demagogue who appeals to the lowest common denominator", and I do believe you know who he was referring to. :confused:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Debatable.



Not true as every single book I have read on BB cosmology deals with various hypotheses on what led to the BB with one exception. The first time I ran across non-causation was a hypothesis on this from Hawking. But he didn't claim that this is what happened but that it was hypothetically possible.



Our minute universe likely expanded for a reason, so the question is what was that reason.

And then there's string theory, so ... :shrug:
Well, it is certainly tricky.

Sure, there is an explanation for the big bang, one way or the other.
It's just that "causality" is problematic, because causality is necessarily temporal as causes happen before effects.
Causality, furthermore, is a phenomenon of physics. Physics, as it applies in the universe.

So to invoke it to explain the universe must be a misnomer of some kind.
Whatever explains the big bang, it was not a "cause" like we understand causality to work.

Unless space-time itself exists in a larger space-time off course. But then we enter into multi-dimensional stuff that makes my head spin even more.

I'm just saying, we need to be careful with our language and "intuition" here.
Yes, there is an explanation for the big bang.
Likely, it is nevertheless nonsensical to talk about "before" the universe.


I agree, off course, that the best answer we currently have is simply "we don't know".
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Almost everyone involved in science never gives God a thought.

What an absurd statement!

"According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006."

Ok, not a particulatly recent poll, but I doubt the numbers are significantly different today.

 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
What an absurd statement!

"According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006."

Ok, not a particulatly recent poll, but I doubt the numbers are significantly different today.

Did you ever give god a thought while you were actually doing the science of astronomy or was it peripheral to the actual job?
 

Regiomontanus

Ματαιοδοξία ματαιοδοξιών! Όλα είναι ματαιοδοξία.
Did you ever give god a thought while you were actually doing the science of astronomy or was it peripheral to the actual job?

Good question. Not for a long time, no. But it was the cognitive dissonance from trying to make sense of the universe without God that finally helped to open my eyes; our Universe had a Creator.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Good question. Not for a long time, no. But it was the cognitive dissonance from trying to make sense of the universe without God that finally helped to open my eyes; our Universe had a Creator.
That is fine as a belief and a personal conclusion, but I assume you never found a god term to put in a calculation, only that you were left wondering why it was as you found.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good question. Not for a long time, no. But it was the cognitive dissonance from trying to make sense of the universe without God that finally helped to open my eyes; our Universe had a Creator.
Where was this Creator before the universe existed?

By what technique did the Creator bring the universe into existence?

Why?

Why does this Creator care about the followers of one of earth's many many religions on one of many many planets around literally septillions or more of stars in the universe, and not bother with the rest?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think many involved in science want there not to be a God so bad, they go to almost any lengths to find a way to convince themselves he doesn't exist.
That's not how scientists think, but that IS how creationists think. They want their deity to exist so badly that they go to any lengths to convince themselves that the contradictory evidence doesn't exist. I think you're projecting.
That's one of the reasons I have a problem with evolution. If it was really true that evolution is the way different species came to be, then there shouldn't be such gaps in the fossil records. There should be smooth transition. There should be more intermediate/transitional forms between different species. It should be the norm.
You're not qualified to determine what gaps are too large or how large they should be. Neither am I. We would have to know how likely it is for any given creature to become a fossil, what fraction of fossils have survived to the present, and what fraction of those are found.
You can't prove that. It's only speculation.
Even were that the case, why is that a problem for a creationist? That's the currency of a creationist's belief - speculation. He believes things that he can't demonstrate. Your previous comment about the size of the gaps in the fossil record was just speculation. And this is a good illustration of what I just said about creationists going to any lengths to deny the science, including introducing a double standard for religious and scientific belief. That cannot be justified.

Regarding your use of the word prove, you've probably been told that little is proven in science. The standard is demonstration beyond reasonable doubt, which has been done. The theory is correct beyond reasonable doubt. Those rejecting it don't have valid (properly reasoned) arguments. Their doubt is unrelated to reason, thus not a reasonable doubt. They are unreasonable doubts.

As an exercise, think about what would become the new paradigm if the theory were falsified and how unreasonable it would be to believe that that was the case before falsifying the theory. You've still got to explain all of the evidence that we would then know didn't get there by blind forces of nature.

Let me give you a hint with an analogy. Suppose that we have mountains of evidence that a certain suspect was guilty of a particular murder - DNA, fingerprints, eyewitness accounts, closed circuit TV, ballistics, etc.. all pointing to the same suspect, who was convicted. Then one day, something is uncovered that falsifies the verdict, whatever that might be, and we now know that the theory of the murder was wrong. What's the new paradigm? It's fraud. Somebody went to great pains to deceive, perhaps the police, perhaps enemies of the suspect.

So what do you suppose the new paradigm would become? Biblical creationism? That's ruled out by the existing evidence, which would now need to be reinterpreted in the light of the falsifying find, but that doesn't resuscitate biblical creationism. It would, however resuscitate creationism by a deceptive creator or creators (fraud again), but not the kind humanity could have perpetrated, as some of that evidence is in the DNA and some fossil evidence will eventually be found as the ice caps melt away. Man couldn't have engineered either of those.

So who did? The default paradigm would be that the earth had been visited by a race of superhuman extraterrestrials that themselves arose through naturalistic processes (abiogenesis and evolution) orchestrated a massive fraud, or a supernatural explanation with supernatural deceivers. The latter would still be an unreasonable doubt given the absence of evidence for supernaturalism and the lack of need to invoke it over a naturalistic hypothesis, which though presently also unreasonable to believe, would become the leading hypothesis if the theory were falsified.
I must also say that question about leprechauns is ridiculous
Not to an atheist or even an enlightened theist who understands that the evidence doesn't support his beliefs but chooses to hold them any way presumably because it's comforting or familiar.

This is an interesting phenomenon to me - the believer who is offended by having his deity compared to other things believed in by faith. It's predictable that some theists would feel this way to anybody that can imagine what it's like to be a zealous one.

And should the atheist be offended that you call this analogy ridiculous? I doubt any are. Can you not see how the world looks to him the way he can see how it looks to you? Are you unable to see how a leprechaun and a god are equivalent to an atheist, assuming that he is also an aleprechaunist, and that he is not trying to offend you?

What other insufficiently evidenced character that people have believed exists but which you don't believe in could the atheist compare your god to that wouldn't be ridiculous in your estimation? A ghost (assuming that you don't believe in their existence)? Another god, but one that you reject, like Zeus or Odin? Whatever the answer, substitute that for leprechaun.
 
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