Too far off the wall and out of touch with the reality of Exodus and Joshua. Back peddling gets you nowhere quick.
Not worth responding to.
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Unresolvable problems with Exodus in archaeology, history and contradictions in the Torah
- Thread starter shunyadragon
- Start date
Not worth responding to.
Actually no, there would be mixed generations some born on the road and others younger, and some the same generation as Joshua and Keleb. Joshua led the Hebrew people out of the Sinai regardless.
Again back peddling and playing Duck, Bob, and Weasel does not help your argument.
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Apparently, you have found ways to enjoy yourself and amuse yourself by playing Duck, Bob and Weasel changing your story frequently to suit your agenda whatever that is.
In other words you are too erratic and inconsistent to constructively contribute to the thread.
River Sea
Active Member
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala Yadavas are the indigenous people; am I understanding correctly?
@Bthoth are people living in Egypt indigenous people too?
@shunyadragon Yes, a person can agree with evolution and also agree with the findings of archeology about the Exodus. Do you agree too that it is possible for people to comprehend Exodus along with evolution?
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many cultures combined in egypt. For example: kush and middle east
I see the exodus as an evolution. That it does not require nobility to comprehend how to be moral. With word, understanding can be conveyed and understood within the conscious experience. I observe the exodus as a time of emancipation from central control of morality /ethical comprehension to individual (commandments to stone (words)) capability.
Well rwo different issues. yes I guess one could accept evolution and the scientific history of the earth and have 'faith' in the account of Exodus and Joshua are true, nut there are contradiction is the evidence for Exodus and Joshua. The archaeological and historical evidence demonstrates that something took place concerning Hebrewsand/or other Semites leaving Egypt at the time described by Exodus and Joshua, but the Biblical description does not fit the evidence. Like all the Pentateuch written ~600 BCE it consists of a compilation of narratives form different Canaanit, Simerian, Babylonian anf traditional stories handed down in Hebrew traditions, and not factual history.
Most Rabbis today emphasise the spiritual and traditional meaning of the accounts of the Creation, Noah flood, and Exodus reading the plain text as is without commenting whether they are true or not. Some Reform Rabbis with accept they are not true acounts
Why would there be “massive destruction”?
Deuteronomy 6:10,11.
So looking for massive destruction in Canaan would be a fruitless endeavor.
*Some* destruction, like that at Jericho, occurred but not massive.
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For those who are interested, Google “Patterns of evidence series by Tim Mahoney”…. some of it might even be on YouTube.
Except from Wikipedia:
“Patterns of Evidence: Exodus is a 2014 documentary film directed by Tim Mahoney.[3] The film presents the view that the biblical story of the Exodus of the Hebrew slaves from Egypt was an historical event that took place during the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. To the extent that other scholars consider the Exodus a historical event, it is usually placed later, during the New Kingdom of Egypt. It was released at the Pan Pacific Film Festival in July 2014, and in theaters by Thinking Man Film on January 19, 2015.”
Notice, the timeline for the Exodus is pushed further back, to the Middle Kingdom. And this coincides well with destruction found at Jericho.
Except from Wikipedia:
“Patterns of Evidence: Exodus is a 2014 documentary film directed by Tim Mahoney.[3] The film presents the view that the biblical story of the Exodus of the Hebrew slaves from Egypt was an historical event that took place during the Middle Kingdom of Egypt. To the extent that other scholars consider the Exodus a historical event, it is usually placed later, during the New Kingdom of Egypt. It was released at the Pan Pacific Film Festival in July 2014, and in theaters by Thinking Man Film on January 19, 2015.”
Notice, the timeline for the Exodus is pushed further back, to the Middle Kingdom. And this coincides well with destruction found at Jericho.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Off-topic discussions have bounced around in other threads concerning Exodus. In this thread, I will provide specifics
Bart Ehrman, a historian at UNC University has done research over the years concerning the Bible.
First, the Biblical contradictions concerning Jericho.
Historical Problems with the Hebrew Bible: The Conquest of Canaan | The Bart Ehrman Blog
This will be my final post, for now, on the problems with the Hebrew Bible. I couldn’t resist one last set of comments on the historicity of the accounts narrated there, this time with respect to the stories in the book of Joshua about the Conquest of the Promised Land (Jericho and so on).ehrmanblog.org
When considering the historicity of the narratives of Joshua, the first thing to re-emphasize is that these are not accounts written by eyewitnesses or by anyone who knew an eyewitness. They were written some 600 years later, and were based on oral traditions that had been in circulation among people in Israel during all those intervening centuries. Moreover, they are clearly molded according to theological assumptions and perspectives. Biblical scholars have long noted that there is almost nothing in the accounts that suggest that the author is trying to be purely descriptive of things that really happened. He is writing an account that appears to be guided by his religious agenda, not by purely historical interests. That is why, when read closely, one finds so many problems with the narratives.
And what kind of verification do we actually get for the narratives of Joshua? The answer appears to be: none of the above. There are no references in any other ancient source to a massive destruction of the cities of Canaan. Archaeologists have discovered that few of the places mentioned were walled towns at the time. Many of the specific cities cited as places of conquest apparently did not even exist as cities at the time. This includes, most notably, Jericho, which was not inhabited in the late 13th century BCE, as archaeologists have decisively shown (see box 4.2). The same thing applies to Ai and Heshbon. These cities were neither occupied, nor conquered, nor re-inhabited in the days of Joshua. Moreover, there is no evidence of major shifts in cultural patterns taking place at the end of the 13th century in Canaan. There are, to be sure, some indications that some towns in Canaan were destroyed at about that time (two of the twenty places mentioned as being destroyed by Joshua were wiped out at about the right time: Hazor and Bethel) But that is true of virtually every time in antiquity: occasionally towns were destroyed by other towns or burned or otherwise abandoned.
- Internal discrepancies. As we have seen, parts of Joshua stress that Joshua was fantastically successful in conquering the land: “Joshua defeated the whole land” (10:40); “Joshua took all that land” (11:16); “Joshua took the whole land” (11:23). If it were true that Joshua took “all” the “whole” land – why are there so many parts of the land that the text admits were not taken? The Deuteronomistic historian later has to acknowledge that when “Joshua was old…the LORD said to him ‘very much of the land still remains to be possessed’” (13:1). And so we are told that Jerusalem had not yet been taken (15:63); or parts of Ephraim (16:10); or parts of Manasseh (17:12-13). At the end of the book Joshua has to persuade the people to drive out the natives living in the land (23:5-13).
- Tensions with other Accounts. A similar problem arises between Joshua and other books of the Deuteronomistic history. In ch. 11, for example, the Israelite forces completely annihilate the city of Hazor: “they put to the sword all who were in it, utterly destroying them; there was no one left who breathed, and he burned Hazor with fire.” If that were true, why is it that in the next book, Judges, the Canaanites still very much live in and control Hazor, under their king Jabin, whose powerful army afflicted and oppressed the Israelites (Judges 4)?
- General Implausibilities. A number of the stories in Joshua are so chock-full of the miraculous that historians simply cannot deal with them as historical narratives (see the excursus in ch. 1). None of the miracles is more striking than the account in ch. 10, where the Israelite armies are having such a huge success, routing the coalition of kings aligned against them that Joshua cries out to the sun to stop its movement in the sky. And the sun stands still at high noon for twenty-four hours before moving on again, giving the Israelites ample time to complete the slaughter. As readers have long noted, it would be a miracle indeed if the earth suddenly stopped rotating on its axis for a day and then started up again, with no disturbance to the oceans, land masses, and life itself!
- External Verification and Archaeology. For biblical scholars, just as significant is the surviving physical evidence (or rather lack of it) for the conquest. Archaeologists have long noted that there is scant support for the kind of violent destruction of the cities of Canaan – especially the ones mentioned in Joshua. Think for a second: if one were to look for archaeological evidence, or other external verification, to support the historical narratives of Joshua, what would one look for?
- References to the invasion and conquest in other written sources outside the Bible.
- Evidence that there were indeed walled cities and towns in Canaan at the time.
- Archaeological evidence that the cities and towns mentioned actually were destroyed at the time (Jericho, Ai, Heshbon, etc.).
- Shift in cultural patterns: that is, evidence of new people taking over from other peoples of a different culture (as you get in the Americas when Europeans came over bringing with them their own culture, different from that of the native Americans).
We are left, then, with a very big problem. The accounts in Joshua appear to be non-historical in many respects. This creates a dilemma for historians, since two things are perfectly clear: (a) eventually there was a nation Israel living in the land of Canaan; but (b) there is no evidence that it got there by entering in from the East and destroying all the major cities in a series of violent military campaigns. Where then did Israel come from?
All these problems have been resolved and you have been shown how, but you still attack the credibility of the Bible.
PureX
Veteran Member
"Unresolvable problems with Shakespeare and the historical record"
"Unresolvable problems with Star Wars and any actual possible future"
"Unresolvable problems with the myth of Donald Trump and the reality of him"
Expecting mythology to align with reality is a silly expectation as that is not what myths are about, or for. Myths deliberately exaggerate stories about reality to help us recognize and understand some ideal lesson to be learned from the experience. Myths are a mixture of fact and fiction intended to represent some truth about reality, not to actually BE REALITY.
"Unresolvable problems with Star Wars and any actual possible future"
"Unresolvable problems with the myth of Donald Trump and the reality of him"
Expecting mythology to align with reality is a silly expectation as that is not what myths are about, or for. Myths deliberately exaggerate stories about reality to help us recognize and understand some ideal lesson to be learned from the experience. Myths are a mixture of fact and fiction intended to represent some truth about reality, not to actually BE REALITY.
Not resolved at all. Selective interpretation of archaeological evidence does not resolve the contradictions.. It remains there is no evidence for Joshua invading and conquering Canaan when it was mostly occupied by Egypt. The fact that Jerecho was destroyed is not evidence as to who destryed it. The credibility of the historical accounts of the Pentateuch is questioned based on objective verifiable evidence,
The accounts in Joshua describe massive destruction, moast of Canaan was ovccupied by Egypt where Joshua claimed he conquered and claimed he wipped out the population as detailed in chapter 10 through 12 in the Book of Joshua.
Of course, you have to deal with the unresolvable conflicts between the books of the Pentatuch concerning the accounts of the invasion by Joshua. This undermines the credibility of the acounts. You cannot just 'hand wave' away obvious contradiction concerning the Joshua invasion, as well as unresolvable conflicts in the historical reliability of the Pentateuch.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
If the evidence was objective and verifiable there would be no complaint, but archaeology is a science of opinion.
We know that Egypt had conquered Canaan and was meant to be protecting it from invasion from other nations etc. but just when Israel was meant to be in the process of conquest and continued conquest after Joshua, we see archaeological evidence of letters from Canaan to Egypt (Amarna Letters) complaining about Egypt's lack of presence and protection in the face of ongoing attacks.
I guess Egypt was busy with other things.
The Amarna Letters
The Amarna Letters are documents written to Egyptian Pharoahs from vassal Kings in the land of Canaan. These letters clearly indicate Habiru presence in both Canaan and Egypt.
Egypt had not been honest with anyone about the Hebrews escaping and doing a lot of damage to Egypt. Too embarrassing.
Canaan saw those who were invading as Habiru.
Then there is the Soleb inscription (around 1400BC) about the people of Yahweh where Israel was meant to be at that time.
From this site: Three Egyptian Inscriptions About Israel
1. The Soleb Inscription
At the end of the 15th century B.C., the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III built a temple to honor the god Amun-Ra at Soleb in Nubia (modern-day northern Sudan). Within the temple area are a series of columns on which Amenhotep III listed the territories he claimed to have conquered. Each territory is listed by a relief of a prisoner with their hands tied behind their backs over an oval “name ring” identifying the land of the particular foe. The most interesting from a biblical perspective is a column drum that lists enemies from the “the land of the Shasu (nomads) of Yahweh”. Given the other name rings nearby, the context would place this land in the Canaanite region. In addition, the prisoner is clearly portrayed as Semitic, rather than African-looking, as other prisoners in the list are portrayed.1 Two conclusions are almost universally accepted: this inscription clearly references Yahweh in Egyptian hieroglyphics (the oldest such reference outside of the Bible), and that around 1400 B.C. Amenhoteph III knew about the god Yahweh. Moreover, it would indicate an area in Canaan in the 15th century B.C. inhabited by nomadic or semi-nomadic people who worship the god Yahweh.
This inscription is also evidence that points to an early date for the exodus. According to a literal reading of 1 Kings 6:1, Solomon began building the temple in the 480th year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, placing the exodus around 1446 B.C. Moreover, when Moses first went to Pharaoh to deliver God’s message to let His people go, Pharaoh responded by saying, “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go” (Ex. 5:2). By around 1400 B.C., when the Israelites would have been nearing the end of the conquest of Canaan, the ruling Egyptian Pharaoh does know about Yahweh. Egyptologist, Dr. Charles Aling and historian Dr. Clyde Billington summarize: “If the Pharaoh of the Exodus had never before heard of the God Yahweh, this strongly suggests that the Exodus should be dated no later than ca. 1400 BC because Pharaoh Amenhotep III had clearly heard about Yahweh in ca. 1400 BC.”2
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Brian2
Veteran Member
One would think that people who read Joshua and the first chapter of the next book, Judges, would see the overall true by combining it all into one unified story which tells us of partial conquest and much more conquest that had to be done.
But no, all you want to see and quote is the part that tells us of the conquest,,,,,,,,, and you don't seem to realise that the promises of God were fulfilled in the whole of the land not being conquered completely.
That is little more than embarrassingly silly word-play.
Brian2
Veteran Member
If the evidence was objective and verifiable there would be no complaint, but archaeology is a science of opinion.
Which part do you disagree with and why?
"One would think." does not respond to my post.
The Book of Joshua describes the conquest as complete, defeat of all the kings, and brutal killing of all.
Again . . .
Of course, you have to deal with the unresolvable conflicts between the books of the Pentatuch concerning the accounts of the invasion by Joshua. This undermines the credibility of the acounts. You cannot just 'hand wave' away obvious contradiction concerning the Joshua invasion, as well as unresolvable conflicts in the historical reliability of the Pentateuch.
Avaolutely ridiculous and not comprehendable. Ypu ovject to and misrepresent archaeological evidence and then cite misrepresentations of the evidence.
We know that Egypt had conquered Canaan and was meant to be protecting it from invasion from other nations etc. but just when Israel was meant to be in the process of conquest and continued conquest after Joshua, we see archaeological evidence of letters from Canaan to Egypt (Amarna Letters) complaining about Egypt's lack of presence and protection in the face of ongoing attacks.
I guess Egypt was busy with other things.
The Amarna Letters
The Amarna Letters are documents written to Egyptian Pharoahs from vassal Kings in the land of Canaan. These letters clearly indicate Habiru presence in both Canaan and Egypt.www.israel-a-history-of.com
Yhe letterd are from generals and appointed leaders of occupied Canaan and are rvidence that Egypt ovvupirf Canaan, eith absolutely no reference to an invasion by Joshua,
Unbelievable "personal" conjecture and speculation to justify your agenda, There is no evidence to justify this statement,
Then there is the Soleb inscription (around 1400BC) about the people of Yahweh where Israel was meant to be at that time.
From this site: Three Egyptian Inscriptions About Israel
1. The Soleb Inscription
A reconstruction of the “Land of the Shasu of Yahweh” inscription at the temple of Soleb.
At the end of the 15th century B.C., the Egyptian Pharaoh Amenhotep III built a temple to honor the god Amun-Ra at Soleb in Nubia (modern-day northern Sudan). Within the temple area are a series of columns on which Amenhotep III listed the territories he claimed to have conquered. Each territory is listed by a relief of a prisoner with their hands tied behind their backs over an oval “name ring” identifying the land of the particular foe. The most interesting from a biblical perspective is a column drum that lists enemies from the “the land of the Shasu (nomads) of Yahweh”. Given the other name rings nearby, the context would place this land in the Canaanite region. In addition, the prisoner is clearly portrayed as Semitic, rather than African-looking, as other prisoners in the list are portrayed.1 Two conclusions are almost universally accepted: this inscription clearly references Yahweh in Egyptian hieroglyphics (the oldest such reference outside of the Bible), and that around 1400 B.C. Amenhoteph III knew about the god Yahweh. Moreover, it would indicate an area in Canaan in the 15th century B.C. inhabited by nomadic or semi-nomadic people who worship the god Yahweh.
This inscription is also evidence that points to an early date for the exodus. According to a literal reading of 1 Kings 6:1, Solomon began building the temple in the 480th year after the people of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, placing the exodus around 1446 B.C. Moreover, when Moses first went to Pharaoh to deliver God’s message to let His people go, Pharaoh responded by saying, “Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD, and moreover, I will not let Israel go” (Ex. 5:2). By around 1400 B.C., when the Israelites would have been nearing the end of the conquest of Canaan, the ruling Egyptian Pharaoh does know about Yahweh. Egyptologist, Dr. Charles Aling and historian Dr. Clyde Billington summarize: “If the Pharaoh of the Exodus had never before heard of the God Yahweh, this strongly suggests that the Exodus should be dated no later than ca. 1400 BC because Pharaoh Amenhotep III had clearly heard about Yahweh in ca. 1400 BC.”2
Yes, Egypt knew of the Hebrews in the Hills of Judah. So what!?!?!? Egyptian records descriptions of all the tribes and kingdoms in the Levant region, with absolutely no records of the conquest by Joshua. We have no evidence of any written records by Hebrews at the time. All the evidence demonstrates that the Hebrews were a pastoral tribe, without a written language no significant miltary to achieve what is fiscribed as Joshua's conquest of Canaan. Again . . . yes, Egypt had records of defeating the Henrews and capturung slave.
Yes, there is adequate records and wvidence of Eghpt defeating Hebrews and having slaves, but abaolutely no evidence of the scale and description of events in the conflicting texts of the Pentateuch
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Thos like you who refuse to consider the objective veifiable archaeological, historical and geological evidence will always refuse and persist in intentional ignorance where there is not question as to what the evidence demostrates. The Pentateuch is not a historical document. It is narratives compiled ~600 BCE from various sources with nothing written at the time the events occured.
Can you explain the accuracy of the Pentateuck when no Hebrew written records are known until after ~600 BCE?
The only written records available and there is abaolutely no record of Joshua's invasion when Egypt occupied and colonized Canaan.
/
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Biblical history shows Kings and Priests who have turned away from YHWH and to the gods of the people of Canaan. Only a handful of faithful YHWH followers remained at times. It was not until after the Exile that the whole nation once again turned to follow YHWH.
Is it any wonder that the writings associated with the supremacy of YHWH were hidden away by the faithful.
But they were found.
It's easy to explain if you read the Bible and believe it.
If you want to say that the writings have not been found so it did not happen, that is your prerogative but is based on not taking the Bible record seriously.
So you end up believing one of a number of fantasies that have been made up to explain the Jews in Canaan.
Really? Do you think that Israel was a nation with a human King which decided to invade and conquer Canaan, like the Pharaohs did?
Do you think that this Israelite nation would keep records and set up Steles and have monuments engraved with their mighty conquests?
Well I suppose you must think that.
Yet as I have shown there is record of what they did in the Archaeology if you have eyes to see it.
Bharat Jhunjhunwala
TruthPrevails
I agree. There is archaeological evidence of intrusion. The biblical record may be hyperboled but it did exist.