The witchhunt continues...

[icehorse]

Speech is considerably regulated to varying extents in the majority of countries globally. Please try to step out of the US when making arguments about "much of the world." China and India alone contain almost half of the world's population.

Didn't I literally say "much of the world" ?

As I have said many times, I understand that free speech is not absolute. The limits vary from country to country, I understand that.

You are back to the habit of rephrasing others' positions instead of responding to what we actually say. I have no interest in having to correct misrepresentations every other post, so focus on what I'm actually saying or tell me if you don't want to so that I spare my time and know not to engage you.

As we all know, sometimes posters post loaded questions, or if not loaded, questions that might better be cast from a different perspective. I can assure you that I'm not trying to dodge any of your questions, I'm trying to demonstrate that there are different - perhaps better - perspectives.

I reject the very notion that anti-harassmsnt laws that cover trans people "erode free speech" in the first place. The majority of the world's most posperous countries that top freedom indices have hate speech laws and significant medical and legal support for trans people's rights. They're doing fine, and they have more freedom per multiple metrics than the US does. That includes Canada, the home of Bill C-16.

I understand your position. I suspect we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I think a lot of new-ish "hate speech" laws have been implemented due to short term political pressure, not to long preservation of free societies. To be clear, I'm not supporting hate speech, I just think that we can fight hate speech with tools less dangerous to society than censorship laws.

Do you realize that Europe's most developed and free countries all have hate speech laws? The same goes for Australia.

I will iterate what I said above: try to think of the wider global scope and the evidence from developed countries outside the US instead of focusing only on the US and the alarmist mantras of its ideologues.

I believe I've answered this earlier in this post, but let me add: The whole world has been corrupted by unchecked capitalism. Much of the world has become some form of Oligarchy / Kleptocracy. We are all awash in a sea of propaganda, marketing, and other forms of coercion. In that context, I think we have to step back, and try to evaluate issues using evidence, logic, and common sense, not the identity politics based solutions provided by activists.

Several decades ago the Muslim world erupted over cartoons. Almost the entire world of journalism capitulated. We have to be able to think for ourselves. It seems to me we have overwhelming historical evidence that the beginning of tyranny is also the seemingly well intended introduction of censorship laws.

Censorship should be our last line of defense. Should we fight against bigotry and harassment? Of course!!!! But we have tools other than censorship to fight with.

 

[icehorse]

I have direct anecdotal evidence of white people getting scared around black people and fearing for me when I'd go to the black part of town.
Oh well, bigots be damned.
With trans and restroom usage, again, oh well. There just isn't the evidence to justify such fears.

Assaults HAVE happened. What's your threshold for how many assaults would be too many? And how do you weigh the dread of the many to support the feelings of a few?

It appears to be your opinion that women have nothing to fear when ANYONE enters their restrooms. Really? At this point HUGE men with facial hair can enter women's restrooms under the guise of being trans. And some non trans evil men are doing just that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't know much about Dylan Mulvaney -

I didn't know this person existed before all this. And I still don't care and will forget this exists after this has blown over.

I still don't understand the hype about social media personalities and influencers because I generally avoid social media

Here is it for me as well. As for the rest, it just seems like people with a camera saying "look at me! look at me! Over here! LOOK AT ME!"

Am I missing something with Mulvaney?

Nah. Just means more time for the real world outside of the Matrix.

LOL! One of seen, like that but different, same text but it had the woman figure, man figure and then an alien, lmao.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As we all know, sometimes posters post loaded questions, or if not loaded, questions that might better be cast from a different perspective. I can assure you that I'm not trying to dodge any of your questions, I'm trying to demonstrate that there are different - perhaps better - perspectives.

No, what DS said is true. There is a problem some here have with putting words into member's mouths (I just had to correct you on this as well).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Assaults HAVE happened. What's your threshold for how many assaults would be too many? And how do you weigh the dread of the many to support the feelings of a few?

It appears to be your opinion that women have nothing to fear when ANYONE enters their restrooms. Really? At this point HUGE men with facial hair can enter women's restrooms under the guise of being trans. And some non trans evil men are doing just that.

Christ! I called you out in an earlier post for putting words in my mouth and here you doing it again!
And some white people have been assaulted by black people. Hell, some friends and I were jumped by some black gang members years ago. Should we go back to racial segregation because some bigoted honkeys hold all black people accountable?
And guess what? Cis-men have always been finding ways to molest, harass and assault women. Like janitors putting cameras in women's restrooms and changing rooms. The uncle who rapes his niece at home. The boss who forces himself on his secretary.
Try thinking outside of your bubbles for once.

 

[icehorse]

No, what DS said is true. There is a problem some here have with putting words into member's mouths (I just had to correct you on this as well).

Seriously, whatever debating offenses I might have committed:

- my intentions are EXACTLY what I just stated
- EVERYONE, you and @Debater Slayer are guilty of similar infractions.

We ALL implicitly restate or ignore each other's questions. But if you want to isolate a specific exchange, I'd be happy to walk through it with you

 

[icehorse]

Christ! I called you out in an earlier post for putting words in my mouth and here you doing it again!
And some white people have been assaulted by black people. Hell, some friends and I were jumped by some black gang members years ago. Should we go back to racial segregation because some bigoted honkeys hold all black people accountable?
And guess what? Cis-men have always been finding ways to molest, harass and assault women. Like janitors putting cameras in women's restrooms and changing rooms. The uncle who rapes his niece at home. The boss who forces himself on his secretary.
Try thinking outside of your bubbles for once.

I said "it appears to be".

These are complex issues we're discussing. I'm not trying to twist your words, I'm trying to offer counter arguments. If I misunderstood you, it was not intentional. My approach is to read what you've written, understand it the best I can, and offer counter arguments. The fact that I might re-frame a response or disagree with you does not indicate bad faith on my part.

You have ignored several of my questions, this is just par for the course.

off to work, back later

 

[Viker]

The only "dread" I have about using a public restroom is that someone might hear me poop (if it's a noisy one).

Then, no bean burritos with extra cheese for you!

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have direct anecdotal evidence of white people getting scared around black people and fearing for me when I'd go to the black part of town.
Oh well, bigots be damned.
With trans and restroom usage, again, oh well. There just isn't the evidence to justify such fears.

What if the trans person was really big and an expert at the Limbo?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have direct anecdotal evidence of white people getting scared around black people and fearing for me when I'd go to the black part of town.
Oh well, bigots be damned.
With trans and restroom usage, again, oh well. There just isn't the evidence to justify such fears.

Me, too. On my first visit to New Orleans, I was in a motor home, and we parked on Hwy 10, up near Lake Pontchartain. Everybody told me not to take the bus from around there (and where not to go downtown), so the first thing I did was get on a bus to take me downtown.

Now, I am definitely white, and there was exactly one white person on that bus. But when I asked someone sitting next to me to tell this poor Canadian where to get off -- I had a bus-full of friendly help. They were all very kind, and made me feel welcome.

 

[Brickjectivity]

But what about the dangers of masturbation?

Most people forget one of the main claims when cold cereal was first invented.

Are they saying that Kellogs Frosted Flakes protects from rub burns? I dont understand. What are the dangers it protects against?

 

[Rachel Rugelach]

Me, too. On my first visit to New Orleans, I was in a motor home, and we parked on Hwy 10, up near Lake Pontchartain. Everybody told me not to take the bus from around there (and where not to go downtown), so the first thing I did was get on a bus to take me downtown.

Now, I am definitely white, and there was exactly one white person on that bus. But when I asked someone sitting next to me to tell this poor Canadian where to get off -- I had a bus-full of friendly help. They were all very kind, and made me feel welcome.

I believe that most people are kind -- wishing only to be treated kindly in return.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Are they saying that Kellogs Frosted Flakes protects from rub burns? I dont understand. What are the dangers it protects against?

Things like corn flakes and graham crackers where inventes to keeo boys from maturating and going blind, growing palms, and some other things those prudes actually managed to convince themselves of.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I said "it appears to be".

No, you put words into people mouths.

I'm not trying to twist your words, I'm trying to offer counter arguments. If I misunderstood you, it was not intentional.

It really looks that way because this thread alone I'm not the only person you tore a ligament jerking that knee and proclaiming we said things we didn't say. And you kept dping it even after getting called out over it.
If someone didn't actually say then quit saying they did.

You have ignored several of my questions, this is just par for the course.

Quit twisting our words and start honestly and accurately addressing what you say and you'll find things are more productive when we aren't having to correct your bull****.

 

[Father Heathen]

I have talked to women who feel dread. Are the few trans people's feelings more important than those women's?

People's rights and freedoms do indeed supercede the irrational and unsubstantiated fears of others.

 

[Father Heathen]

Wow! You think physical size and strength doesn't justify dread?

BTW, interesting (and civil), debate. But I will be offline most of the day, I'm not disappearing

What about cis women who are large, stocky, "butch", etc.? What if a woman was racist and felt dread around other women who were racial minorities? Should restrooms be racially segregated to put her fears at ease?

 

[Father Heathen]

Assaults HAVE happened. What's your threshold for how many assaults would be too many? And how do you weigh the dread of the many to support the feelings of a few?

It appears to be your opinion that women have nothing to fear when ANYONE enters their restrooms. Really? At this point HUGE men with facial hair can enter women's restrooms under the guise of being trans. And some non trans evil men are doing just that.

Could you link some news articles covering any such assaults? Smells like another bull**** strawman.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What about cis women who are large, stocky, "butch", etc.? What if a woman was racist and felt dread around other women who were racial minorities? Should restrooms be racially segregated to put her fears at ease?

Reminds me of a manager I had at Arbys. She's a fiercely proud dyke, big for a cis-woman, very butch in appearance and masculine in mannerisms (she out butches most guys), and if you disrespect her family she's coming after you with a baseball bat.

 

[Kenny]

So you're going to cop out and not dig into the volumes of research? Do I have to take time away from my schedule to post dozens of verifiable and credible sources? Can you help me?

Once again, there is no appeal to authority.

I disagree. To say that the biological evidence of XX and XY is irrelevant is liken unto saying that the evidence of a round earth does not mean the earth is not flat.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I disagree. To say that the biological evidence of XX and XY is irrelevant is liken unto saying that the evidence of a round earth does not mean the earth is not flat.

No, it's saying we know Nature isn't that simple.