Does theism lead to immoral behaviour?

[ChristineM]

I would like to see the Atheist develop an optimize ethical foundation for their children

What i would like to see is religious people develop and optimise their view of atheism. I, as an atheist do not recognise the atheist you try to paint in the above post.

 

[Heyo]

Religious morality [...] does not allow the ego to over develop

When a solider enlists and goes to boot camp, the first thing they do is break down their ego;

Religious morality is often more self policing; first lessons of God.

I would like to see the Atheist develop an optimize ethical foundation for their children, before encouraging the spoiled ego who then has to find this sweet spot, after a rocky adolescence start, that can embitter them. This approach also requires a later ego building stage; teen years, but with this good foundations of basic ethics in place.

That sounds very authoritarian, almost despotic. Liberty doesn't seem to be on your list of moral values.

 

[Copernicus]

I would like to see the Atheist develop an optimize ethical foundation for their children, before encouraging the spoiled ego who then has to find this sweet spot, after a rocky adolescence start, that can embitter them. This approach also requires a later ego building stage; teen years, but with this good foundations of basic ethics in place.

I've known lots of atheists who were not raised to be religious and turned out just fine. They learned their morality through a process of obedience to parental authority and imitation of the behavior of those around them. Later on in life, they tended to acquire more nuanced rationalizations as their mental capacity expanded and matured. Most atheists don't tend to end up in jail, but those who do find themselves just as outnumbered, if not more so, than when they lived out in general society.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Most atheists don't tend to end up in jail,..

Don't start that .. trying to use "damned lies and statistics" to prove how good atheists are..

One must give a detailed breakdown of the prison population..
..and as we know, in the US, it includes more black and hispanics, due to the inequality in wealth.

 

[ChristineM]

Don't start that .. trying to use "damned lies

Nope, damned truth and statistics

In the US the number of Christian prisoners is higher than the average population of Christians while the number of atheist prisoners is several times lower than the population of atheists.

Religion in Prisons - A 50-State Survey of Prison Chaplains.


In 2021, atheists made up only 0.1% of the federal prison population


Are Prisoners Less Likely To Be Atheists?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In the US the number of Christian prisoners is higher than the average population of Christians while the number of atheist prisoners is several times lower than the population of atheists.

I didn't say it wasn't .. but you are implying that that shows that atheists are more moral than believers.
It does not. It has something to do with race and poverty.

 

[ChristineM]

I didn't say it wasn't .. but you are implying that that shows that atheists are more moral than believers.
It does not. It has something to do with race and poverty.

You said damned lies, i went from there

Actually i wasn't implying any such thing however now that you mention it, in my experience i find atheist do tend to be more moral than believers.

 

[Copernicus]

Don't start that .. trying to use "damned lies and statistics" to prove how good atheists are..

I actually didn't start to do that. I made an observation that most of us would regard as true. Atheists are a minority of the general population and a very small minority according to some surveys, but we could bring statistics to bear, if you want that. Christine brought up some sources for the demographics of the jail population. And, as she pointed out, she wasn't implying that atheists were more moral than believers. Neither was I. Are you implying that believers are more moral than atheists? If so, I think you are the one who has started with the "lies, damned lies, and..." --well, I haven't seen any statistics from anyone to back up such an argument.

One must give a detailed breakdown of the prison population..
..and as we know, in the US, it includes more black and hispanics, due to the inequality in wealth.

Unlike Christine, I do not find that atheists tend to be more moral than believers. I couldn't begin to make such a generalization, since I don't usually know the views of most people who commit immoral acts. I assume that everyone has done some immoral things, regardless of their views on religion.

As for the population of racial and ethnic minorities in jail, I think that that has more to do with the inequities built into our justice system than their tendency to engage in immoral acts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As for the population of racial and ethnic minorities in jail, I think that that has more to do with the inequities built into our justice system than their tendency to engage in immoral acts.

..well you brought it up.. "Most atheists don't tend to end up in jail, but those who do find themselves just as outnumbered, if not more so, than when they lived out in general society."

Why did you say that?

 

[Copernicus]

..well you brought it up.. "Most atheists don't tend to end up in jail, but those who do find themselves just as outnumbered, if not more so, than when they lived out in general society."

Why did you say that?

Because we know that atheists are vastly outnumbered by believers in the general population. It stands to reason that they would be outnumbered in jail cells even if a much larger proportion of them were jailed than their proportion in the general population. You yourself mentioned race and poverty as factors affecting jail populations. Even though black and Hispanic prisoners represent a greater proportion of jail populations than their proportions in the general population, they still do not come close to outnumbering whites.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because we know that atheists are vastly outnumbered by believers in the general population.

Do we?
I would imagine it would depend on the locality.
If it is anything like the UK, we find a growing number of atheists in major cities.
..although Islam is actually growing .. probably more to do with immigration than anything else.

 

[Copernicus]

Do we?
I would imagine it would depend on the locality.
If it is anything like the UK, we find a growing number of atheists in major cities.
..although Islam is actually growing .. probably more to do with immigration than anything else.

I honestly don't know, because the term "atheist" carries such a stigma and is so poorly defined that many nonbelievers are motivated not to accept the label. Moreover, religious institutions may tend to overestimate the number of people who actually consider themselves religious. Church attendance is way down, and surveys that turn up counting a substantial number of respondents as "None" only tell us that that they consider themselves "unaffiliated", not that they really think of themselves as nonbelievers or non-spiritual.

See:

Modeling the Future of Religion in America​

Europe is more advanced than the US in terms of the growing population of those claiming no affiliation with a religion. It is somewhere down around 30% in the US population right now, but Pew estimates that it will become a majority by 2070, if the trend continues here.

 

[F1fan]

I didn't say it wasn't .. but you are implying that that shows that atheists are more moral than believers.
It does not. It has something to do with race and poverty.

Well it suggests religion doesn't keep believers in line. And as you should know from your experience with atheists, many are able to think for themselves and consider their own moral principles.

 

[DNB]

Then let me ask a slightly different question:

Does the teaching of theism lead to moral actions?

By your own logic it doesn't. It leads, in most cases, to the profession of theism - which is, in most cases, a lie.
And, depending on if you call deception amoral or immoral, we could even say that the teaching of theism leads to immorality in most cases.

God exists, as this discussion of morality would be impossible without a spiritual dimension endowed in man, in order for him to even comprehend the concept.
Therefore, since morality is from God, and by definition it enacts the obligation in man to do good. So, as long as one keeps these principles in mind, he is then compelled and enabled to do good.
In other words, there is no such concept or significance to morality if God does not exist.
Theism always leads to morality, provided that one keeps the theism in mind at all times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God exists, as this discussion of morality would be impossible without a spiritual dimension endowed in man, in order for him to even comprehend the concept.
Therefore, since morality is from God, and by definition it enacts the obligation in man to do good. So, as long as one keeps these principles in mind, he is then compelled and enabled to do good.
In other words, there is no such concept or significance to morality if God does not exist.
Theism always leads to morality, provided that one keeps the theism in mind at all times.

Sorry, but that is just terrible circular reasoning on your part. Why do you think that one cannot have a sense of right and wrong if there is no god? I know, it is much easier and more comforting to use logical fallacies than to use rational arguments.

 

[Heyo]

God exists,

not in evidence

as this discussion of morality would be impossible without a spiritual dimension endowed in man

not in evidence

, in order for him to even comprehend the concept.
Therefore

ex falso quodlibet

, since morality is from God, and by definition it enacts the obligation in man to do good. So, as long as one keeps these principles in mind, he is then compelled

contradicted by evidence

and enabled

contradicted by evidence

to do good.
In other words, there is no such concept or significance to morality if God does not exist.
Theism always leads to morality, provided that one keeps the theism in mind at all times.

 

[DNB]

Well, I'm talking about sincere theists, though I agree that sincere theistic religion is often exploitative.



I'm not even necessarily talking about full-blown atrocities. I'm talking about things like:

- LGBTQ kids in religious homes being driven to suicide by their parents and their church.

- legislators denying funding for important research to cure diseases because it involves stem cells, which they're opposed to for religious reasons.

- how some Mennonite denominations are so anti-education that they will shun members who get university degrees.

- the mistrust and xenophobia that religion often fosters by making its members think that those who hold different beliefs from them are, as you put it, "devout to [...] not the holy God of love and righteousness, but more likely His arch-enemy."


... just as a few examples.

But, again, detractors of theism always point to the 'adherents' in order level their accusations. But, since when does anyone define a religious system based on the position of the interpreters?
Find in the Bible where Jesus endorsed any of the acts that you criticized.

God is the author of morality - a concept incomprehensible to the secular realm. Therefore, provided that one does not lose their focus on God, theism will always lead to morality.

 

[Heyo]

You said damned lies, i went from there

Actually i wasn't implying any such thing however now that you mention it, in my experience i find atheist do tend to be more moral than believers.

I'm not really sure that atheists are more moral.
First, we shouldn't conflate moral with law abiding.
And second, maybe it has to do with a general disposition not to believe things that are not in evidence. Maybe they simply ask themselves "do you really believe that you can get away with it?".

 

[Heyo]

Theism always leads to morality, provided that one keeps the theism in mind at all times.

And who does that?
What you are doing is to call those who fail to be moral "no True™ Theists™.
Also, that doesn't answer why the teaching of theism doesn't lead to pupils of theism keeping the theism in mind at all times.

 

[ChristineM]

I'm not really sure that atheists are more moral.
First, we shouldn't conflate moral with law abiding.
And second, maybe it has to do with a general disposition not to believe things that are not in evidence. Maybe they simply ask themselves "do you really believe that you can get away with it?".

It's a personal view based on lifes experience.

I can honestly say that i have never been hurt by an atheist, i honestly wish that i could say the same about christians.

And i would contest my morality against most christians