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Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Insofar as God not needing to be perfect, hopefully you can look at Isaiah 55:8,9 and tell me what you think.

No, I meant, the offerings are very specific in what is required. They have specific animals, they have a specific procedures. So if we start changing those requirements, switching out the animal with a man, and ignoring the other steps in the process, because, as you said God is the one accepting the offering/sacrifice, not humans. Which I took to mean that we as humans are not the ones to choose the particulars of this specific human sacrifice.

My point was, if this is God's choice, and it doesn't need to match up with any of the other offerings/sacrifices, then Jesus does not need to be perfect, Jesus doesn't need t be sinless, Jesus doesn't need to fulfill any prophecies, there are no rules for this specific event. God is making the rules, can change them, and can accept Jesus as the offering/sacrifice regardless of any detail which would I can imagine or read about in scripture.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well, there's more to it. You bring up a good question, however, and I'd like to look into it. I believe you may know more about this than I do right now which is: what does Messiah mean? I know it means anointed one and so I'll look into it. Because I believe the term can apply to more than one. (And yes, there's more to it...) Take care, I am enjoying our conversations. Thanks.

Even more than that. If miracles and a ressurection happened pre-Jesus, then there's another way to receive the holy spirit and to defeat death without Jesus, without the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. That would mean, even today.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Even more than that. If miracles and a ressurection happened pre-Jesus, then there's another way to receive the holy spirit and to defeat death without Jesus, without the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. That would mean, even today.
There's more, dybmh, such as being kings and priests. Fulfilling that responsibility.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Even more than that. If miracles and a ressurection happened pre-Jesus, then there's another way to receive the holy spirit and to defeat death without Jesus, without the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. That would mean, even today.
Actually, God raised Jesus from the dead. Some do not believe Jesus really died during those three days, but as I have learned, it does make sense that he died. Then God raised him.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Even more than that. If miracles and a ressurection happened pre-Jesus, then there's another way to receive the holy spirit and to defeat death without Jesus, without the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. That would mean, even today.

If people fulfill the requirements of the Law then they have no sin and do not deserve death. But our righteousness is like filthy rags. So we accept the sacrifice God has provided or end up being judged by Jesus and hoping for His mercy.
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant, and as Psalm 110 tells us, Jesus is a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.
The requirements of God would not change imo. From the time of Abel and Cain, God has been pleased more when we offer the best we have, and in this case a sinless man is the best that Jesus could do when He offered Himself. And of course, Jesus showed His divine nature by not sinning and if He had sinned He would have died because of His sins and would not be able to pay for the lives of anyone else.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
YHWH is one God who made all things, true.
Why do you think that God created angels to oversee aspects of creation? Where does the Bible say that?
If you need to ask me where in scriptures it states that God made angels to oversee aspects of creation then it shows that you are not an understander of the scriptures. From the amount of time you are posting responses to scriptural matters, from your claims of knowing the ways of the scriptures, from the debates and exchanges of comments and beliefs about scriptures, you do not understand??

But you asked the question - you know the answer but am always trying to test my understanding of the subject hoping to find a glitch that you can criticise. But here is the thing - the scriptures upholds itself, the truth is they’re in the scriptures, and I am mortal and have sin which means I can make errors. My primary calling is to oppose trinity but other issues impact on such opposition. I don’t profess to be an expert on such side matters (all scriptures is not invested in one person nor even at one time - some revelations require their own time period for them to be exposed) But I will try my best not to make errors that mislead others - and accept reproofs if I do err!

To answer the question you asked about God creating angels to oversee creation, however, is not a hard one. In fact, it is an incredibly simple question to answer - an answer that should not be required since it is a simple as answering ‘What is the answer to 2 + 2 (presuming 2 is integer value 1 greater than 1 and 1 less than 3).

What are angels? Scriptures states that they are spirit beings who are created to have great power and intelligence (far greater than mankind!) whose purpose is to serve God. The word, ‘Angel’ is just a westernised English version of the Greek word, ‘Angelos’ which means, ‘Messenger’. But there are ranks of these ‘Angelos’, angels, and some are called by other titles such as ‘Seraphim’ and ‘Cherubim’, etc., who appear to never leave the immediate ‘presence’ of God, who serve God ‘day and night’. Of the majority of angels, scriptures notes God as:
  • making his messengers as ‘Winds’, his servants ‘Flames of fire’ (psalm 104:4)
‘Winds’ are great forces that impact creation but are unseen directly by mankind. ‘Flames of fire’, again, are driven by invisible forces but are visibly impactive on creation. It is very hard to express the power of events in creation and understand that these are impacts ordered by God and enacted by his ‘Angelos’ since some actions negatively impact humanity and other creatures which humanity cannot understand in terms of (selfishly) beneficial to them.

But the most glorious of all angels, he most intelligent, the strongest, became sinful after aiding in the creation of mankind, ‘in God’s own image’, since mankind only worshipped God. This angel desired also to be worshipped by the creature he helped to make (he made the body but God put the IMAGE into the body to make the creature a LIVING SOUL). This angel caused a coup in heaven and rallied other angels to rebel also. These rebellious angels ‘LEFT THEIR STATIONS’ to join the coup but later found themselves ‘jailed in darkness awaiting a day of trial’ which means their destruction… spirits cannot die nor be ‘killed’ (as humans think of it) They can only de DESTROYED, which removes all remembrance of them!

So, we also have the angels of the ARMY of God, of which an angel is named ‘Micha-El’ is the head.

And there is another Angel of high rank named as Gabriel, who ‘Stands in the presence of God’. Gabriel, also appears to mankind with great revelations and also appears in disputes with fallen angels.

(It is to be noted that God does not approve the naming of angels as a normality since he knows that this can lead to ‘Angel Worship’ - which is a highly sinful thing! So perhaps angels are not named except those few who God knows would oppose being worshipped)

The hierarchy (or ranking) of angels mirrors what mankind set in place in its governmental order and justice systems. And that is not to be wondered at since man is, afterall, ‘Image of God’. Even Jesus instituted a hierachial system in the church (Congregation of God) setting ‘STATIONS’ for each: ‘Bishops’, ‘Deacons’, ‘Priests’, ‘Pastors’, ‘Vicars’, ‘Parsons’… each ministering in his own way in proliferating in the word of God and disseminating it to the world.

God, himself, deploys his ministering angels into the world to do His will. God talks to humanity through a medium, typically and angel (which can also mean, mankind in the way of holy men, prophets, or a simple every-day human being.) When action, rather than words, are required, a relevant angel with the necessary power is dispatched to act out the command of God.

Every organisation needs structure and order in order to function as a cohesive force. As said before, there are ranks of angels in heaven, set by God, to achieve this cohesive heavenly force:
  • “Thrones, dominions, principalities, seraphims, cherubims, powers, sovereignties, archangels, and angels.” (‘Angels’ is a cover term for all spirit creatures, even ‘fallen ones’ whom are called ‘Demon [Angels])
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what crowd you mean. Isaiah 53 statres about whom it is speaking. The servant is identified in the text, and the speaker has reason to discuss this servant and not another. The question of the reference to Abraham is regarding Psalms 110, and, as I pointed out, relies on the use of a particular title which is used textually and specifically for Abraham.

So what are you saying? That some Jews, who are perfect (plural) will suffer, die and be resurrected to free humanity from sin and death?
That Abraham will sit at the right hand of God until God has made his enemies his footstool, then what? Abraham is the Messiah?
Explain-away tactics of the Messiah don't sew up the anti-Jesus case, but unstitch the whole laws of Moses.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
So what are you saying? That some Jews, who are perfect (plural) will suffer, die and be resurrected to free humanity from sin and death?
That Abraham will sit at the right hand of God until God has made his enemies his footstool, then what? Abraham is the Messiah?
Explain-away tactics of the Messiah don't sew up the anti-Jesus case, but unstitch the whole laws of Moses.
Where do you see in Psalm 110 anything about any of that?
Abraham, according to that understanding, waits for God's right hand to save him throughout a particular battle and then, the battle is over with God and Abraham is victorious.

The other popular reading is that the writer of this psalm is speaking OF David who waited for God's right hand of salvation in a different battle.

Where is there any mention of a messiah in that psalm? Or resurrection?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If people fulfill the requirements of the Law then they have no sin and do not deserve death.

Part of that law includes paths, plural, for repentence, atonement, and return.

But our righteousness is like filthy rags.

I disagree.

So we accept the sacrifice God has provided or end up being judged by Jesus and hoping for His mercy.

1) If the sacrifice worked as a ransom, then there is no need to accept it.
2) Jesus has no authority over any Jewish person.

The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant,

Sorry, it cannot. It is an eternal covenant, God is not like a man to change its mind.

and as Psalm 110 tells us, Jesus is a priest forever in the line of Melchizedek.

I'm sorry, I really am. It doesn't say that.

The requirements of God would not change imo.

Great, then why not apply that same logic to the eternal priesthood, the Mosaic law, and every other eternal promise?

From the time of Abel and Cain, God has been pleased more when we offer the best we have, and in this case a sinless man is the best that Jesus could do when He offered Himself.

He doesn't have to be sinless to be better.

And of course, Jesus showed His divine nature by not sinning

He actually did sin, it's just that Christians don't know the law to the point of noticing it. And I've mentioned it to a few Christians, and they always deny it. And this is where the trinity is useful, because, as God incarnate none of that actually matters.

and if He had sinned He would have died because of His sins and would not be able to pay for the lives of anyone else.

Again, this is applying the guilt offering model to something outside of that paradigm.

The requirements of God would not change imo.

Read up on the offerings in Leviticus and then we can talk about Jesus as a guilt offering. It simply doesn't work. Something else is going on. And that assumes the gospel story is true, it requires that there is a hidden prophecy in Isa 53, it requires the actual words in past tense to be shifted to future tense, a change in the periodic nature of these offerings, and it requires a lowered expectation about what it means to be the suffering servant.

All of those progressively diminish the liklihood that Jesus was a guilt offering.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Where do you see in Psalm 110 anything about any of that?
Abraham, according to that understanding, waits for God's right hand to save him throughout a particular battle and then, the battle is over with God and Abraham is victorious.

The other popular reading is that the writer of this psalm is speaking OF David who waited for God's right hand of salvation in a different battle.

Where is there any mention of a messiah in that psalm? Or resurrection?
Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

101G
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant,

dybmh said: Sorry, it cannot. It is an eternal covenant, God is not like a man to change its mind.


Well what is this then? Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice HOUSE, and not tribes.

101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Even more than that. If miracles and a ressurection happened pre-Jesus, then there's another way to receive the holy spirit and to defeat death without Jesus, without the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. That would mean, even today.
please post those scriptures then, (smile).

101G
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

101G
and how does that refer to a messiah, resurrection or being freed of sin and death? By the way, the verb in the verse is not in future tense. It is actually in past tense. "He struck kings..."
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Brian2 said:
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant,

dybmh said: Sorry, it cannot. It is an eternal covenant, God is not like a man to change its mind.


Well what is this then? Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice HOUSE, and not tribes.

101G.
Yes, "house" because it is speaking of the 2 large kingdoms, each of which was made up of tribes. You can go back to Ex 16:31 to see how the entire people is called "house of Israel". It happens again in Ex 40:38 and 2 other times in the 5 books of Moses. That term continues to be used throughout the prophetic writings to refer to the kingdom as a whole or the kingdom of Israel. If you look at 1 Kings 12:21 you will see one of many uses of "House of Judah" to refer to the Kingdom of Judah as a collective entity.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
and how does that refer to a messiah, resurrection or being freed of sin and death? By the way, the verb in the verse is not in future tense. It is actually in past tense. "He struck kings..."
the Holy Spirit, who is the Lord Jesus in Amalgamation with his own Spirit, per John 17:3, Rev. 5:6, and 12..... (smile).

101G.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Brian2 said:
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant,

dybmh said: Sorry, it cannot. It is an eternal covenant, God is not like a man to change its mind.


Well what is this then? Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice HOUSE, and not tribes.

101G.

It's adding not deleting. You could call it an addendum.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Yes, "house" because it is speaking of the 2 large kingdoms, each of which was made up of tribes.
ERROR
You can go back to Ex 16:31 to see how the entire people is called "house of Israel". It happens again in Ex 40:38 and 2 other times in the 5 books of Moses. That term continues to be used throughout the prophetic writings to refer to the kingdom as a whole or the kingdom of Israel. If you look at 1 Kings 12:21 you will see one of many uses of "House of Judah" to refer to the Kingdom of Judah as a collective entity.
ERROR again. the one's which was scattered. James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." AND, 1 Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
101G.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Brian2 said:
The priesthood can change, especially with a new Covenant,

dybmh said: Sorry, it cannot. It is an eternal covenant, God is not like a man to change its mind.


Well what is this then? Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Notice HOUSE, and not tribes.

101G.

Can you find anything anywhere in the OT where God changes an eternal covenant?
 
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