Isaiah 53 and Human Sin

[PruePhillip]

In the Psalm, David speaks of 2 entities -- God, as represented by the 4 letter name of God, and a person called "my boss."
The most common explanation of the second reference (adonee/my boss) is Abraham, who was called adonee in Gen 23:6.

The Isaiah 53 explain-away-crowd could say that David is speaking of Israel. Jesus himself referred to this verse. How can the Messiah be David's son? He asked. Whoever this mysterous figure is - he will rule over his enemies. I think emplying Abraham to fill this spot is not a good argument.

 

[rosends]

The Isaiah 53 explain-away-crowd could say that David is speaking of Israel. Jesus himself referred to this verse. How can the Messiah be David's son? He asked. Whoever this mysterous figure is - he will rule over his enemies. I think emplying Abraham to fill this spot is not a good argument.

I'm not sure what crowd you mean. Isaiah 53 statres about whom it is speaking. The servant is identified in the text, and the speaker has reason to discuss this servant and not another. The question of the reference to Abraham is regarding Psalms 110, and, as I pointed out, relies on the use of a particular title which is used textually and specifically for Abraham.

 

[Brian2]

Moses was instructed BY GOD to tell the Israelites that they are not to do as the pagan nations do: believe in many Gods as their figures of worship… they must believe that whom they worship is ONE and one only God. That this one and only God made all things by himself.

In other beliefs there are many Gods who made aspects of creations and governed over such aspects. The truth is that the one true God created angels to oversee aspects of creation. These are what the scriptures states as ‘Powers’, ‘Principalities’, ‘Dominions’, and ‘Stations’,of which the angels called ‘Satan’ and ‘Devil’, occupies the highest position.

I know that you already know all this but are just choosing to be objectionable as a plaything.

YHWH is one God who made all things, true.
Why do you think that God created angels to oversee aspects of creation? Where does the Bible say that?

 

[101G]

linguistically, your question makes no sense. You can "LOL" all you want but you clearly don't know English. In its current form it is even more problematic for its use of the wrong article.

GINOLJC, to all.
LOL, LOL, LOL, ... yes 101G will laugh out loud concerning the flawed understanding of the Hebrew Language. and YES, LOL, LOL, LOL, U don't know Hebrew either, especially the ECHAD of God.

Let God, by 101G teach you some Hebrew, God is not an ECHAD, as in Joining of NOTHING, nor any united, or unity of anything. none of that NONESENSE. he is a ECHAD of "EQUAL SHARING" of himself within. not a division, nor a separation "FROM", but the EQUAL "SHARING "of" within himself as the "ANOTHER" of, of, of himself. and the Greeks confirm this "EQUAL SHARING" (ECHAD) as "ANOTHER" in its terminology as G243 Allos. using the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words it means, "Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". now while U are online go to dictionary.com and look up sort, you will get this, when used as a noun. 1. a particular kind, species, variety, class, or group, distinguished by a common character or nature:
2. character, quality, or nature.

there is no one in God class, group, nor his Kind, or any of the rest describe. or as #2 state his character, quality, or nature, except the "Lord" Jesus who is God Equally Shared in Flesh, in a G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō') state. just as Philippians 2:6, 7 & 8 states. and as well as the OT scriptures fore-told. example, Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." this was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. Matthew 26:31 "Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."

or this one which shows the ECHAD as the Greek word G243 Allos express in numerical difference .... as the Ordinal First and Last. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." YES, the same ONE "LORD" in Deuteronomy 6:4. now this, yes, the SAME one LORD in Deuteronomy 6:4., Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, (LORD, the Father) I also am the last (Lord, the Son)."

rosends, UNDERSTAND. the numerical difference is the ECHAD expressed in Ordinal designations as FIRST, and LAST, and the same sort which denotes the same one PERSON. listen Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

that term FELLOW in the Hebrew is H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

see how the KJV can translate the word ..... "another" and definition #2, states "concretely". meaning in flesh, (That ARM, HIS, GOD'S, OWN ARM). scripture, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." this OFFSPRING, G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

just as Zechariah 13:7 states this man is God's "FELLOW". A. he's concrete flesh, bone, and blood, a man Isaiah 53. B. kin as in KINSman REDEEMER, yes, the Saviour, the deliver from our sin. GOD in flesh. this is just too easy not to understand.

this is why the prover is so TRUE, Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter." and we're kings and priest of GOD. we need to search out the matter.

understand, I don't laugh at YOU, the person, NO, 101G laugh at your IGNORANCE of not understanding your own Language. Just like us in the English Language. the devil has made fools of all of US, yes US, Jews as well as Gentiles. 101G just refuse to stay in IGNORANCE anymore no matter who agrees or rejects 101G finding. that's why I study and LEARN from God himself. and STAND on God's TRUTH. for a lie has no foundation and will fall, just as the definition with ECHAD. the true answer is in SHARING of oneself equally as the ANOTHER of one's OWN-SELF. that's how 101G know, Isaiah 53 is the ARM of God in Flesh per Isaiah 63:5.

and also how 101G knows that God is not a ECHAD of unity before creation, per Isaiag 44:24, "I" is a singularity, and not a united, or a unity.

we all need to STOP letting the devil use and guide us into destruction. let's put aside our pride in either language, and let God teach us.

there is nothing wrong in hearing what someone else has to say, but pass it by God before taking hold of it as TRUTH.

101G has found out over the years, just because the majority say so, don't make it the only way that is right.

101G.

 

[dybmh]

Jesus could not be the suffering servant of His own choice. That is the choice of God, and Jesus said He was sent from God for that purpose. It is the LORD who made His life an offering for sin (Isa 53:10) and it is the LORD who showed us that this was true by resurrecting Jesus so that He could see children and show God's approval of Him. (Isa 53:10)

Maybe, maybe not.

(The guy in Ps 89:30 had children too and he also was killed)

I just read the psalm as carefully as I could, and the best I can see is, he had children then died.

To be an offering for sin He had to have been spotless, no sin, or He would be dying for His own sin. (So who of normal men is or could be sinless)

OK. That's step 1 of a guilt offering. What about the other steps? Honestly I think the guilt offering idea is a dead end.

His sacrifice was for all sin not just the sins we have committed, but sins we will commit.

I have yet to find any evidence supporting this.

It is interesting that you think that Jesus may have wanted to be the suffering servant (and from what Jesus said it appears Jesus wanted that and saw it as His role, the reason He had come). But also if Jesus could be the suffering servant that would mean that the Christian translation and interpretation can be correct.

It takes multiple assumptions to get there. Primary among them that much of the chapter is written in past tense meaning the suffering servant was in Isaiah's time.

 

[dybmh]

Looking at the biblical account, Jesus did not pick up a sword to attack those who came to arrest him or even defend himself. He did not fight them. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter. He knew his time had come. That he cried out loud expressed his
John 12:27 - "Now I am troubled, and what should I say? Father, save me out of this hour. Nevertheless, this is why I have come to this hour." In fulfillment of prophecy, Jesus would seem forsaken by God. And suffer death.

I don't think so. If he knew his time had come and was expressing this, then he would not have said cried out loudly "WHY". And again, even if he was silent at the beginning, crying out loudly at the end ruins it. If I begin a meal thanking God, but end the meal thanking artemis, is that proper in your eyes? If not, then crying out loudly at the end means he opened his mouth and that is not what the suffering servant does.

 

[dybmh]

Animals are not equal to humans, animal sacrifices were offered at the temple, unless you believe in evolution, i.e., that humans are animals. Therefore equal to goats, lambs, doves, etc. God blessed Jesus by raising him from the dead and giving him power.

I think I understand what you're saying. But it cuts both ways. If a human is not an animal, then it cannot be used in a guilt offering.

 

[dybmh]

Let me ask you a question, not to put you on the spot but to reason on matters. I have heard that some Jews believe the Moshiach will come when all the Jews go back to Israel. Is this a concept taught?

Mostly no, that's not what is taught. Some think that gathering in Israel will hasten the arrival of Moshiach. Emphasis on hasten. But some think that it's prohibitted to return to Israel until Moshiach. So there's opposing views on that one. And it's not that Moshiach will come at that point, but that it will help speed up the process.

There's other things some people think will hasten Moshiach. Nothing too surprising in the list. Repentence is one of them; Torah study is one of them; Charity is one of them.

The concept I have heard of that will trigger an immediate arrival is proper observance of the Sabbath by every Jew all at the same time. There's a theory that this would do it. Some say it needs 2 Sabbaths. But it's basically the same idea.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't think so. If he knew his time had come and was expressing this, then he would not have said cried out loudly "WHY". And again, even if he was silent at the beginning, crying out loudly at the end ruins it. If I begin a meal thanking God, but end the meal thanking artemis, is that proper in your eyes? If not, then crying out loudly at the end means he opened his mouth and that is not what the suffering servant does.

He did not say to God why are you doing this to me? He said something else. No, sorry, crying out as if he would alienate himself from prophecy as messiah does not mean what you say it means. He cried out loud not against God. He always was in harmony with the will of God. If you believe that because of that he was not the Messiah, do you believe he was raised from the dead? That he raised dead ones? If not, there is really no discussion. To be honest with you because you use that as a reason to say he was not the messiah makes me wonder about the rest of your beliefs.

 

[YoursTrue]

Mostly no, that's not what is taught. Some think that gathering in Israel will hasten the arrival of Moshiach. Emphasis on hasten. But some think that it's prohibitted to return to Israel until Moshiach. So there's opposing views on that one. And it's not that Moshiach will come at that point, but that it will help speed up the process.

There's other things some people think will hasten Moshiach. Nothing too surprising in the list. Repentence is one of them; Torah study is one of them; Charity is one of them.

The concept I have heard of that will trigger an immediate arrival is proper observance of the Sabbath by every Jew all at the same time. There's a theory that this would do it. Some say it needs 2 Sabbaths. But it's basically the same idea.

I guess if M. Schneerson came out of the grave there might have been a mass exodus to Israel.
There are many Jews that don't keep the sabbath day or keep kosher. Do all Jews have to keep kosher for Moshiach to come, or do they simply have to keep the Sabbath Day all together? Furthermore, if you don't KNOW, then what?

 

[YoursTrue]

I think I understand what you're saying. But it cuts both ways. If a human is not an animal, then it cannot be used in a guilt offering.

God, not humans, accepted Jesus as the sacrifice. But proper understanding leads to the conclusion that he is now the reigning king next to God, his Father in heaven. And things are going to change on this earth.

 

[dybmh]

He did not say to God why are you doing this to me? He said something else.

This is what you said: "He knew his time had come. That he cried out loud expressed his"

This is what he said: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you far from saving me, Far from my cries of anguish?"

No, sorry, crying out as if he would alienate himself from prophecy as messiah does not mean what you say it means.

If I start the meal thanking God, but end the meal thanking artemis, is that proper in your eyes?

He cried out loud not against God.

Agreed.

He always was in harmony with the will of God.

Maybe. Maybe not.

If you believe that because of that he was not the Messiah, do you believe he was raised from the dead?

I don't know what happened. I wasn't there.

That he raised dead ones?

I wasn't there.

If not, there is really no discussion.

OK. I'll finish answering your questions, and you're welcome to ignore them.

To be honest with you because you use that as a reason to say he was not the messiah makes me wonder about the rest of your beliefs.

We've never really talked about my beliefs. Maybe just scrips and scraps. But I've had a life so far, I have many beliefs.

 

[dybmh]

I guess if M. Schneerson came out of the grave there might have been a mass exodus to Israel.

Maybe.

There are many Jews that don't keep the sabbath day or keep kosher. Do all Jews have to keep kosher for Moshiach to come, or do they simply have to keep the Sabbath Day all together?

That's a good question. I'm guessing yes. It would need to be all Kosher food too. Easiest thing, combine it with a fast day. Yom Kippur on a Saturday would maybe do it.

Furthermore, if you don't KNOW, then what?

God takes good care of us. It'll happen when it happens.

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe.



That's a good question. I'm guessing yes. It would need to be all Kosher food too. Easiest thing, combine it with a fast day. Yom Kippur on a Saturday would maybe do it.



God takes good care of us. It'll happen when it happens.

I look forward to the time soon when the earth will be transformed from heaven to the earth. Meaning the earth will be a far better place for mankind than it is now. There's enough bad things happening, now and before. Those things will be gone, done away with.

 

[dybmh]

God, not humans, accepted Jesus as the sacrifice.

Then he doesn't need to be perfect. He doesn't need to fit any prophecy. None of the rules apply. Which is fine.

But proper understanding leads to the conclusion that he is now the reigning king next to God, his Father in heaven. And things are going to change on this earth.

This is what I think. And I think this will clarify my position for @Brian2 as well. Assuming the story is true. The ressurection is confirmation of something amazing happening, the question is "what was it?" And the stories of the apostles, the holy spirit, shows that something amazing was happening as a result of this event, the question is "what was it?"

When we go back to the Hebrew bible it's unclear. There's very few real prophecies that match up well. The best one is Isa 53, but it's got a few issues. It's not really describing a sacrifice like the ones in Leviticus. We don't have enough info to understand the mechanism of what's going on. So we don't really have any clear answers explaining the miracles descibed in the Christian bible. Not by going backwards. But! That doesn't undermine the good that resulted and continues to come from this.

The questions I'm asking myself are: How is this replicated? What are its limits? Is there potential harm?

YoursTrue, can we agree that this episode with Jesus and the ressurection has potential to lead people into idol worship and transgression?

 

[YoursTrue]

Then he doesn't need to be perfect. He doesn't need to fit any prophecy. None of the rules apply. Which is fine.



This is what I think. And I think this will clarify my position for @Brian2 as well. Assuming the story is true. The ressurection is confirmation of something amazing happening, the question is "what was it?" And the stories of the apostles, the holy spirit, shows that something amazing was happening as a result of this event, the question is "what was it?"

When we go back to the Hebrew bible it's unclear. There's very few real prophecies that match up well. The best one is Isa 53, but it's got a few issues. It's not really describing a sacrifice like the ones in Leviticus. We don't have enough info to understand the mechanism of what's going on. So we don't really have any clear answers explaining the miracles descibed in the Christian bible. Not by going backwards. But! That doesn't undermine the good that resulted and continues to come from this.

The questions I'm asking myself are: How is this replicated? What are its limits? Is there potential harm?

YoursTrue, can we agree that this episode with Jesus and the ressurection has potential to lead people into idol worship and transgression?

We can. Here's how I figure it, and I haven't seen it yet, but I hope to. However it works out. God is God. We are not. We are not equal to God, one reason is because He made us in the sense allowing the mechanics plus the breath of life to enter our bodies. Nephesh. So I go back to the beginning to understand things sometimes, and that is again, Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. Since I don't like long posts, I'll stop there. Except when I say 'go back to the beginning,' I am speaking of a beautiful place to live in, with God's help, life everlasting.

 

[YoursTrue]

Then he doesn't need to be perfect. He doesn't need to fit any prophecy. None of the rules apply. Which is fine.



This is what I think. And I think this will clarify my position for @Brian2 as well. Assuming the story is true. The ressurection is confirmation of something amazing happening, the question is "what was it?" And the stories of the apostles, the holy spirit, shows that something amazing was happening as a result of this event, the question is "what was it?"

When we go back to the Hebrew bible it's unclear. There's very few real prophecies that match up well. The best one is Isa 53, but it's got a few issues. It's not really describing a sacrifice like the ones in Leviticus. We don't have enough info to understand the mechanism of what's going on. So we don't really have any clear answers explaining the miracles descibed in the Christian bible. Not by going backwards. But! That doesn't undermine the good that resulted and continues to come from this.

The questions I'm asking myself are: How is this replicated? What are its limits? Is there potential harm?

YoursTrue, can we agree that this episode with Jesus and the ressurection has potential to lead people into idol worship and transgression?

Oh, ok. one more thing. Miracles and resurrections were performed as recorded in the Hebrew/Aramaic scriptures, dybmh.

 

[dybmh]

Oh, ok. one more thing. Miracles and resurrections were performed as recorded in the Hebrew/Aramaic scriptures, dybmh.

Right. Isn't that a good reason to think that Jesus is not the only way? And, is this your answer to the question about potential for harm coming from the Jesus ressurection story?

 

[YoursTrue]

Then he doesn't need to be perfect. He doesn't need to fit any prophecy. None of the rules apply. Which is fine.



This is what I think. And I think this will clarify my position for @Brian2 as well. Assuming the story is true. The ressurection is confirmation of something amazing happening, the question is "what was it?" And the stories of the apostles, the holy spirit, shows that something amazing was happening as a result of this event, the question is "what was it?"

When we go back to the Hebrew bible it's unclear. There's very few real prophecies that match up well. The best one is Isa 53, but it's got a few issues. It's not really describing a sacrifice like the ones in Leviticus. We don't have enough info to understand the mechanism of what's going on. So we don't really have any clear answers explaining the miracles descibed in the Christian bible. Not by going backwards. But! That doesn't undermine the good that resulted and continues to come from this.

The questions I'm asking myself are: How is this replicated? What are its limits? Is there potential harm?

YoursTrue, can we agree that this episode with Jesus and the ressurection has potential to lead people into idol worship and transgression?

Insofar as God not needing to be perfect, hopefully you can look at Isaiah 55:8,9 and tell me what you think.

 

[YoursTrue]

Right. Isn't that a good reason to think that Jesus is not the only way? And, is this your answer to the question about potential for harm coming from the Jesus ressurection story?

Well, there's more to it. You bring up a good question, however, and I'd like to look into it. I believe you may know more about this than I do right now which is: what does Messiah mean? I know it means anointed one and so I'll look into it. Because I believe the term can apply to more than one. (And yes, there's more to it...) Take care, I am enjoying our conversations. Thanks.