Why Didn't the Universe Always Exist?

[David Davidovich]

Although better proof to me would be Hebrew text and ancient rabbinical writings that showed advanced medical and technological information since those texts are supposed to not have been lost and are supposed to have stayed intact for thousands and thousands of years.

So, I guess you came up snake eyes on that one, @Ehav4Ever?

 

[David Davidovich]

Not insulted, but the statement isn't logical.

If something creates something else it does so by choice. If it itself is not limited and also not itself created by something else then it has the choice to choose how it does anything and everything. It is also not bound by the logic of something int created. Especially, when that something is so small in the scope of reality.

Besides, Torath Mosheh Jews are vey clear that Hashem is not a human being nor does Hashem have human logic. If a human, with the limited about of universal knowledge we have, thinks that the universe should have been created as something diffeent then it would stand to reason that a human would simply have to create a universe in the way they deem logical. If they can't do such a thing they are subject to whatever can and did.

Assuming if this 'whatever' which could have and did actually exists... Since your acceptance of that is only based upon your belief and your logic.

 

[David Davidovich]

I read all of that I understand what you were saying. What I am saying is that by using the words "god", "religion", and "morality they are not applicable to what Torath Mosheh Jews actually hold by. I.e. the foreign terms, "in English", mean something different than what is found in the Hebrew text. That is why people who want to start at an English basis will always be tripped up. The Torah was not written in the English language nor was it written using western logic. Thus, I will go over the answer again below.

Well, this might merit its own thread, but why are there verses in the Torah such as Exodus 20:3? Because it uses the word "other." And weren't those "other" gods that are being referred to, i.e. Avodah Zara gods? And correct me if this has a different meaning in Hebrew.

'Thou hast no other Gods before Me.

(And I like quoting from Young's Literal Translation)

And similarly, there's Exodus 20:22-26.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’

Therefore, altars, sacrifice, and comparing himself to Avodah Zara gods? Sure does sound like godship and worship to me.

And then there's Exodus 34:14, which again mentions "other," but this time mentions jealousy. Also, see Deuteronomy 5:7, and Deuteronomy 6:14.

And what about this act in the "inspired" (if I am saying that correctly) Hebrew text of Isaiah 6:1-3 that looks very much like obeisance and worship?

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphim, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glor

Same thing with Daniel 7:9-14, Psalms 68:17, Psalms 69:34, Isaiah 55:12, Psalms 98:6-7, Isaiah 42:10, Ezekiel 1:4-28 and the list goes on. However, @Ehav4Ever, you seem to make this whole thing with Hashem sound completely scientific. However, from what I've seen in the Hebrew text, there seems to be a lot of praise and worship involved in relation to Hashem.

Again, this is completely the wrong direction - because as I stated above it is not the perspective of the Torah. We are not talking about "Super Beings." A super being can easily be the creation of a more super being. A super being can easily have limitations. A super being can easily be bound by terms like Almighty, Omnipotent, All-powerful, All-knowing, etc., and the arguement people want to make because of said terms.

If something is the Source of reality and it is the Source of the ability to create, then none of these terms have meaning. i.e. by defintion the Source created all aspects of reality, is not bound by the logic of its creations, nor is there anything above it placing barriers on how the Source wants to do something. If the source wants to create or allow a universe to develop in what is peceived to be be billions of years to one of its creations it is only logical to say that also space-time are one of the things it created. If time is one of its creations then the concept of time is not a constraint for the Source - it is a contraint of its creations that change due to time. Thus, the creations may feel like a different method may have been better (shorter, longer, less complex, etc.) but that feeling by a created thing is meaningless because the Source is not bound by what anything or anyone it created thinks is a more logical process.

Besides, there are some humans who jump for joy and are in amazement of a universe/reality that is potentially billions of year old, from our perspective. There are some humans who are excited when they learn that reality Is full of complex process and such. The concept of understanding the reality we were created in has sparked all kinds of revolutions in human history and employees countless people who have an interest in understanding how the universe works.

Further to that, when a Torath Mosheh Jews look at this complex reality and universe it causes us to be in awe of the Source and this has sparked thousands of years of Torath Mosheh Jewish discussion. It has also provided Torath Mosheh Jews with the strength to survive some of our darkest challenges in history because we know that even when our enemies have tried to wipe out the Jewish people the Source of reality is above and beyond those said enemies.



Again, wrong concept. From your perspective as a human millions or billions of years is a long time and a part of your definition for what the Source should do. That is not the case, the Source CHOSE to do develop reality the way it wanted. By definition it doesn't have to snap any fingers or anything else. Also, because the Source is not subject to time, one of its creations, from the Source's perspective (again getting metaphysical) billions and even trillions of years is less than a snap of a finger - because past, present, and future are a creation - the source is not bound by them. Especially when the Source has the choice to do so for the purposes the Source wants. There is a Torath Mosheh Jewish concept that humanity benefits all the time from the CHOICE of the Source to create reality as it did, whether we know it or not.

Again, the Source didn't have to create anything if it didn't want to. The Source didn't have create reality the way it did. Due to it being the Source it CHOSE to and becaue it has nothing placing barriers on what it should do, then its choice is what is it is. I personally like the fact that the Source chose to create a complex universe with all the various facets that exist in it. I know that I am not alone in this.

But, @Ehav4Ever, that just sounds like semantics to me. Because I don't see the difference between everything that you said and the concepts of Almighty, Omnipotent, All-powerful, All-knowing, etc.

 

[leroy]

No, there are no scientific hypothesis that say god did it. There may he religious belief but i don't think they count as valid scientific hypothesis.

The point being all the scientific hypothesis are based on observable phenomena, measurements and/or mathematics.

The god did it ideas is based on belief which is why they are not scientific hypothesis

I didn't say that God did it is a scientific hypothesis

I said that some hypothesis (those who point to a First cause) suggest the existence of God

 

[ChristineM]

I didn't say that God did it is a scientific hypothesis

I said that some hypothesis (those who point to a First cause) suggest the existence of God

A hypothesis is based on observable and/or measurable evidence, not belie.

But feel free to bastardise the word if it makes you feel better

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Assuming if this 'whatever' which could have and did actually exists... Since your acceptance of that is only based upon your belief and your logic.

No. It is based on the question that you posed and not my acceptance of anything.

If something has the power to create something it only makes sense that it is not bound by the rules of the thing it created. If it is bound by rules, then it is bound rules that either it put into place or rules from something above it, if such a situation exits. If I make a car, I am not bound by the rules that govern cars. I.e. I don't have to have my body physically inspected the way a car has to be inspected when I walk on the street. I don't have to wear a licence plate around my neck when I am walking around. I also don't have to a VIN number like a car does. A a non-car I have different set of rules I go by.

If a different scenary exists then said scenary can be presented.

Please be aware, I also entertained the idea that nothing created everything that exists in the universe.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, I guess you came up snake eyes on that one, @Ehav4Ever?

Snake eyes on what? Jewish writings for thousands of years have been discussing medecine and technology. Many of the greatest leaders in Jewish history were scientists and doctors. There is no reason, based on the Torah, that Jews are supposed to be superhuman mutants because of the Torah. There is no where in the Torah where a claim is made.

What is stated is that by keeping the Torah Jews would be able to survive as an ethnic group, even in exile, and to be able to advance with the reality as it exists.

Although better proof to me would be Hebrew text and ancient rabbinical writings that showed advanced medical and technological information since those texts are supposed to not have been lost and are supposed to have stayed intact for thousands and thousands of years.

Yet, you have never read a text in Hebrew. How would you know if that information is in them or not? For example, have you ever read the Rambam's treastise on medicine?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

A Joe Rogan video? About lost civilizations? Although better proof to me would be Hebrew text and ancient rabbinical writings that showed advanced medical and technological information since those texts are supposed to not have been lost and are supposed to have stayed intact for thousands and thousands of years.

So, in other words you are saying that the only people who appear on the Joe Rogan are non-scholars who have no value in anything they say? Is there information in what they stated that you dispute?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, this might merit its own thread, but why are there verses in the Torah such as Exodus 20:3? Because it uses the word "other." And weren't those "other" gods that are being referred to, i.e. Avodah Zara gods? And correct me if this has a different meaning in Hebrew.

(And I like quoting from Young's Literal Translation)

And similarly, there's Exodus 20:22-26.

Please be aware you reading an English translation, one that looks like it is Christian in nature. The starting point is the Hebrew text not a translation. If you remember I explained that the word god does not mean what the word (אלהים) means in Hebrew. The word god is not in the Hebrew text. You will have to accept that the translations you have on hand are not accurate depications of what the Hebrew text states. Even Jewish translations often have to add loads of commentary to fill in the linquistic gap.

One of the reasons I started doing videos was to address the linquistic gap that I know some people have.

Also, if you remember that I showed that the word (אלהים) means power or strength. Thus, in ancient Jewish writings anything that has power or strength can be called a (אלהים) - Judges are called (אלהים), people can be called (אלהים), the malakhim can be called (אלהים). Yet, because Hashem is the power above powers we Jews often call Him (אל עליון). In English, just because something or someone has power or strength doesn't mean that people call that something or someone a "god."

Thus, this is a huge linquistic difference. You have to accept that if you are going to understand what I am talking about.

 

[David Davidovich]

Snake eyes on what? Jewish writings for thousands of years have been discussing medecine and technology. Many of the greatest leaders in Jewish history were scientists and doctors. There is no reason, based on the Torah, that Jews are supposed to be superhuman mutants because of the Torah. There is no where in the Torah where a claim is made.

Well, I had asked for another example from the Hebrew text rather than a Joe Rogan video. Also, I understood the point that you were making from the Joe Rogan video, and I am not disputing that, however, I had mentioned to you that better proof for me would be additional Hebrew texts that conveyed either advanced medical information or technological information, which would be in addition to the very, very complex Genesis 1:1 verse that you said was so difficult to understand. Unless that only happens to be the only Hebrew text that has such advanced information in it... for some reason. (And which could hint at that maybe it was not really understood by the ancient Hebrew rabbis and pundits, etc.)

Yet, you have never read a text in Hebrew. How would you know if that information is in them or not? For example, have you ever read the Rambam's treastise on medicine?

I supposed that I would just have to trust and believe what you've been telling me all along about what's in the Hebrew. Unless of course, someone else who speaks Hebrew would give a different viewpoint than you did, which I noticed happened in the For Torath Mosheh Jews Only: Who is Hashem? thread, which I haven't had the time to even reply in yet.

 

[David Davidovich]

Please be aware, I also entertained the idea that nothing created everything that exists in the universe.

Could you show me where that's at. Also, could you tell me why you also entertained the idea?

 

[David Davidovich]

So, in other words you are saying that the only people who appear on the Joe Rogan are non-scholars who have no value in anything they say? Is there information in what they stated that you dispute?

No, I'm just just admitting that there's a bit of prejudice (it you can call it prejudice since I'm not really prejudging) on my part towards Joe Rogan. (I just don't like the guy.) However, see what I said in my post #230. Plus, I already watched this video below several weeks ago:

therefore, further proof wasn't even needed about ancient advance civilizations. However, what I had requested from you were other examples of ancient Hebrew text that had either advanced medical information or advanced technological information in them, which would have been more impressive to me. However, you came up snake eyes with that request.

 

[David Davidovich]

Please be aware you reading an English translation, one that looks like it is Christian in nature. The starting point is the Hebrew text not a translation. If you remember I explained that the word god does not mean what the word (אלהים) means in Hebrew. The word god is not in the Hebrew text. You will have to accept that the translations you have on hand are not accurate depications of what the Hebrew text states. Even Jewish translations often have to add loads of commentary to fill in the linquistic gap.

One of the reasons I started doing videos was to address the linquistic gap that I know some people have.

Also, if you remember that I showed that the word (אלהים) means power or strength. Thus, in ancient Jewish writings anything that has power or strength can be called a (אלהים) - Judges are called (אלהים), people can be called (אלהים), the malakhim can be called (אלהים). Yet, because Hashem is the power above powers we Jews often call Him (אל עליון). In English, just because something or someone has power or strength doesn't mean that people call that something or someone a "god."

Thus, this is a huge linquistic difference. You have to accept that if you are going to understand what I am talking about.

Okay, I will accept that. However, could you please tell me what this word "god" is about? Also, this might be an odd, contradictory, or irrelevant question, but did the ancient non-Israelite nations who practiced Avodah Zara, let's say during the time period of Exodus 20:22-26, did they have a belief in gods? And if yes, that would make Exodus 20:22-26 more confusing I suppose.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, I had asked for another example from the Hebrew text rather than a Joe Rogan video. Also, I understood the point that you were making from the Joe Rogan video, and I am not disputing that

So, let's start there. What is the point you understand I was making from the Joe Rogan video where Jimmy Corsetti and Ben van Kerkwyk spoke abou their research and Graham Hancock's work?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I had mentioned to you that better proof for me would be additional Hebrew texts that conveyed either advanced medical information or technological information,

This goes back to what I said from the start. You don't have to accept what is written in Jewish text. You can pass it off as mythology and that is fine. Yet, if you are asking how Jewish texts describe, define, and explain thousands of years old texts in Hebrew and a story/claim found in them, then you have to accept that they were not written in the language you use. They were written in a language that does not have a word for word translation with your language. If it did you wouldn't have to ask any Jew anything. You would 100% confident in your translation. If that point alone is not something you can accept then no one can supply you with an answer to your question. Notice I didn't say to make you beleive the answer. I stated that no one can supply you with an answer to your question.

For example, I challenge you to find one English translation that translates the following words from Hebrew to English in one word.

You won't find it because does not have a "word" to translate this. Even in Hebrew explainations for the words are lengthy because these two words define what the text is talking about. Yet, your translation can't convey w/o a lengthy explaination of what the words are, what they mean, and how the context is defined. So, that being said there is no way to start with a translation and treat the translation as if you have gotten what is in the original.

which would be in addition to the very, very complex

No, it is not complex. Jewish children here in Israel learn it in grade 1. They can easily understand it in grade 2 to 3. Why? Because they are learning it directly from the original and the thousands years of information around it.

It may be complex if one is trying to explain it to someone who doesn't Hebrew, who is using a Christian translation, and not realizing that their translation is not sufficient. The reality is exactly what the Tanakh or anything other Torath Mosheh Jewish text states in only relevant to Jews, for the most part

In fact, I can easily explain this to someone face to face or on Zoom in a way that is completely understandable. I have done this before and it is lot faster than trying to write out explainations on a forum.

Genesis 1:1 verse that you said was so difficult to understand. Unless that only happens to be the only Hebrew text that has such advanced information in it... for some reason. (And which could hint at that maybe it was not really understood by the ancient Hebrew rabbis and pundits, etc.)

Again, if you want to believe that Jews (rabbis/pubdits/etc.) of any generation didn't understand what the Hebrew text says, even though it was their native language, you would have to assume that we Jews of today aldo don't understand it. Thus, your question would serve no purpose in even asking because you also have no way to understand it because you are experiencing.

As I have mentioned before, the Torah was given for the Jewish people to study, debate, investigate, and pass on to Jewish children. It was not meant for the non-Jewish world to take translate and make into what the want to make it. Yet, it is not the job of Jews to convince the world - we don't missionize.

Thus, it is not my job to convince you that my and every other Jews ancestors understood the Torah. I am simply answering questions you are asking. You are free to not agree and reject the answer.

I supposed that I would just have to trust and believe what you've been telling me all along about what's in the Hebrew.

All you have to do is take the sources I provided in Hebrew, screenshot them, and ask various Jews who know Hebrew. You can even email rabbis to see if what I stated is actually found in ancient Jewish texts. That is whole reason I provide screen shots of what i am talking about in my videos so that it is clear that I not just making stuff up.

In fact, I will make it simple for you. Take the following graphic and ask every Jew you can find who knows Hebrew for a one word translation of the words I circled. Then ask them for a translation where that one word translation is found.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Could you show me where that's at.

Sure in my post HERE, see the last paragraph, and also years ago I stated it in the thread below.

Tools for Determining the Truth

Also, my response HERE to a question about the OP and also HERE.

Also, could you tell me why you also entertained the idea?

Because a person never use blind faith in how they direct their lives and what they hold by as reality. They should have solid reasoning and also accept that they can be 100% wrong about any and everything. This is a fundamental in Torath Mosheh. Thus, I constantly evaulate what I hold by using the following method.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, I will accept that. However, could you please tell me what this word "god" is about?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Also, this might be an odd, contradictory, or irrelevant question, but did the ancient non-Israelite nations who practiced Avodah Zara, let's say during the time period of Exodus 20:22-26, did they have a belief in gods? And if yes, that would make Exodus 20:22-26 more confusing I suppose.

I discussed that in this thread below.

The Importance of Correct/Accurate Terminology in Discussing Torah/Yahaduth

Like ancient Israeli/Jews, they didn't have a word that equates to the etymology of the English word god. They had words that are similar to (אל - אלוה - אלהים) which are terms that denote power/strength/the abiliyt to do and are not specific to deity like god is. These words can even be applied to concepts that people give power to over their way of thinking and acting. I actually addressed this in the Avodah Zara video, if you remember.

From 2:08 to 6:45 I talk about this exact issue in detail showing the language of the region you are asking about.

So, in short the nations in this region were not religious in the way you may be used to it in the west. They had concepts of their being powers in reality, some of which was the idea that they are harnessing the powers that exist in the universe to accomplish certain needs that they had.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

call it prejudice since I'm not really prejudging) on my part towards Joe Rogan. (I just don't like the guy.)

Okay, so ignore Joe Rogan and let's address what his guests talked about. Also, I posted a video that did not have Joe Rogan in it. The videos you send me I take into account what they are saying irregardless of how I feel about the person making the content.

therefore, further proof wasn't even needed about ancient advance civilizations. However, what I had requested from you were other examples of ancient Hebrew text that had either advanced medical information or advanced technological information in them, which would have been more impressive to me. However, you came up snake eyes with that request.

Good, so IF for more than 2,000 years Jews have discussing the meaning of Beresheeth, the actual name of the section of the Torah, and they have been stating things are the same as or similar to what modern scientific research posits one has to acept the inforamtion is there. Second, IF, the claim by the Jewish authors for their information is a) from the Oral Torah and b) from their own personal research and all of that information within that 2,000 year time frame then one has to accept that the information exists.

Now, you may decide that you don't agree with their claims of where they got their information. That is fine. Yet, that is not important to the authors and it is not important to the discussion. Yet, IF the information is actually there and it is dating in that 2,000 year period it proves that they were talking about it in the way that the information claims they were.

Again, I have already provided the sources I am talking about. You can easily take them to a rabbi or a historian and ask them if said documents come from the time frames they are claimed to come from or if they were a modern creation to make it appear that Jews knew something about the Torah that they didn't know.

As a side note, you will notice that when Creastionist and Athiests debate science the vast majority of the time it is Christian vs. Athiest. Most the time Jews are not involved because the science has never been a problem for us.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I had mentioned to you that better proof for me would be additional Hebrew texts that conveyed either advanced medical information or technological information

I thought about this statement you mad a bit more and the more I thought about it I realized that what you are actually making here is a religious claim and not one found in Torath Mosheh. I.e. there are various religious proponents who propose that their religion opens the doors to the universe or to perfect understanding for all those who would accept it. Also, these type of religions work hard to convince and proof to those who don't beleive them that their religion, and by extension, they [said members] some hidden knowledge on how reality works that non-beleivers don't have.

This claim is foreign to the Torah. The Torah gives a message to a Jew that the more we learn and advance the more we will wrestle with reality. The more answers we find the more questions that will be produced.

Also, in Talmud there is a statement made about Israel vs. the nations in terms of what each one knows. The statement posits, "If they say to you that wisdom/knowledge exists in the non-Jewish nations believe them; if they say the Torah is in the non-Jewish nations don't believe them." What this means is that knowledge, in the general and advanced sense, can be found all around the world in various nations. The Torah is not needed for advanced medicine and technology to exist. That is a natural human progression. Yet, the Torah requires the written text and the oral Torah which only the Jewish people received have spent thousands of years of perfecting our understanding of it. This Torah, for the Jewish people, helps us deal with the advancements of all types that will naturally happen due to human advancement.

Thus, how did previous generations of Jews record information about the universe - easy because that is covered in written Torath in Beresheeth and thus they had a reason dig deep into those concepts because it was known there was a reason for doing so. The Torah though does not spend a lot of time on something medicine and technology because that is already a natural part of the world that Jews can obtain like any other human can. (Even though before the exile there was information that one of the kings of Israel gathered about medicine.)

The Torah isn't required for someone to know that eating healthy, staying in a healthy environment, keeping active mentally, and exercising are some of the most advanced health advice any human has ever needed in history. The Torah isn't needed to know that one of the most advanced technologies throughout history has been the human mind/enginuity such as knowing how to be self-sufficient - natural food production, water collection, not wasting materials, recycling, using proper farming methods, etc. Yet, what the Torah does give to "Jews" is the ability to do both of these things with the focus on Hashem who provided the material from all of this can be developed thus when do these things we do them for a reason different than the rest of the world. Thus, Rabbi Mosheh ben-Maimon has a whole section in his book of Jewish law, Mishnah Torah, that discuss health as a mitzvah in order to give a Jew the ability to perform other mitzvoth and focus on Torah.

Further, the point of the Torah is that humans (Jewish and non-Jewish) will have to work to develop medically and technologically in a responsible way. This is one of the points of the result of Adam's and Hawwah's (Eve's) actions and the concept of Ya'aqov (Jacob) wrestling with a malakh.

Lastly, whenever there is a need to progress medically and technologically Jews have always been there in order to make doing the mitzvoth more efficient and to wrestle with the reality that we are created into.