Proof against the existence of God?

[We Never Know]

Perhaps his intention was to demostrate that God is not necessary in the world. It's been a while. I don't remember the name of the program. One part was that time didn't exist befire the Big Bang, so God wouldn't have time to create the Universe. Before that he endevoured to show that the Universe sprang into existence without God. That's what I remember.

"One part was that time didn't exist befire the Big Bang"

Something existed or everything came from something that didn't exist. .

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't. It makes the discussion of gods moot. How can we sensibly talk about a thing we don't know what it is?

It makes a group discussion moot, but those with similar conceptions about God can discuss God among themselves.

 

[PearlSeeker]

That being said I am a committed theist and the the God I believe in is an Unknowable Essence.

Usually we call "God" someone who is knowable (revealed).

 

[John53]

There are different claims for different gods or God, that is true. In my culture (strongly influenced by Western culture) when people talk of God they usually refer to a single Creator God to which both our indigenous people and Christians believe.

About the same here except the Indigenous Gods that I've read about are very different to the Christian God and in the last census I believe no religion took over the top spot. Not that I really know what no religion means, I doubt it means they are atheist. If it's the Christian God you were referring to in the OP my answer remains the same, I don't have proof he doesn't exist but I do have plenty of evidence, enough in fact for me to leave Christianity many years ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

That reasoning part ultimately has feeling behind it. Your suffering has made you empathetic about suffering in the world, don't you think? In turn, since you are empathetic about it, you can't accept the suffering that exists. It is hard for you see that in cases of undeserved suffering created by the world, in the end the next world compensates for that. This is compounded by your lack of trust in the next world doing that. Am I on the mark?

You are close. Nobody knows what will happen in the next world, that must be believed on faith.

The next world for you is something unknown that you don't want to go to, and that is why read books like The Afterlife Revealed so you can get certainty about how it is in the next world, so you won't be anxious about the next world. This anxiety is another emotion that you have in spades in your life. How am I doing as a therapist this time? I feel like I am rambling.

The whole scenario has changed now. I do want to go to the next world now that Lewis is there. I am doing everything I can to hold onto hope that things could get better, just to have a reason to live. That is why I have not given up on Mike.

No, I read books like The Afterlife Revealed simply because I find them fascinating and God knows no scriptures have been of any help explaining what the afterlife will be like. Why shouldn't I want to know? I consider it unfair of God to keep that a secret, especially given how much suffering some people have to endure in this life.

Oddly, my overall anxiety is not as bad now that I am all alone. I think a lot of it was anxiety over Lewis even though I was not consciously aware of it at the time.

 

[RestlessSoul]

We have a pretty good understanding about gravity, time and infinities. We have less understanding about Dark Matter or Dark Energy but we can devise tests to learn more. We know virtually nothing about gods (or consciousness for that matter) and we have no idea how to learn about them. In fact, many torpedo any attempt to try.

We have theories, beliefs and perspectives about time, gravity, infinity and consciousness, but they are all terms which mean different things in different contexts. And they are all somewhat mercurial phenomena once we begin to examine them closely.

That said, if we introduce the concept of time, for example, into a conversation, there’ll be no great mystery what it is we are referring to. The mystery reveals it’s depths only when we begin to think more deeply about what it is we are discussing, what it means to us, and what part it plays in framing the nature of our existence and our experience.

We can make exactly the same observation about our use of the word God; I find it most disingenuous when certain parties pretend ignorance, on hearing a word in such common usage. Confronted with the concept, we can either try to understand, or we can, as you say, torpedo any attempt to try.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't cover this part. Sometiumes it isn't beneficial at the time. But as I said in my previous post, even if isn't beneficial in the life before death, the afterlife compensates for that, but you can't accept that for emotional reasons.

I am sorry Duane but you cannot know suffering is beneficial, you just believe that because it is the Baha'i party line.
You also cannot know it is compensated for in the afterlife, you just believe that.

The reason I cannot accept this is not for emotional reasons, it is for logical reasons.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What is the strongest or most compelling argument in your view for the non-existence of God or gods?

Strongest argument? It's less an argument against the possibility of God/s and more an argument against having any idea of their nature, wishes or interest in us. So living my life based on their assumed wishes or nature, or whatever else seems pointless and mostly wishful thinking.

My evidence is the variety of largely local belief systems that have grown up, all disagreeing on God/s nature, intent and needs.

Secondly, I have no personal experience of God, and despite what some here assume about atheists, I have looked as honestly and openly as my personality allows.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Plenty and plenty of times God proves himself to the characters of the Bible. The Israelites more times than I can remember. And Jesus Christ provided proof and expected faith. That doesn't prove the Bible to us presently, rather it shows that if Abrahamic God is real, he expects a lot more faith out of us than he did of the people back then. Lucky them

Or it shows the Bible belongs to fiction literature.

 

[PearlSeeker]

If we are discussing the God of Abraham then many peoples of the world have already come to know and worship Him.

Many believe God made himself known in the past but today they don't know him.

 

[PearlSeeker]

"without beauty, there would be no ugliness" I have read before.

From the movie The Answer Man:

Kris Lucas : If God made everything, then why are some things bad? Like the whole pain and suffering thing...

Arlen Faber : Opposites. Without things that suck, you would have no idea what good was, and therefore be directionless. You smell ****, you walk the other way.​

 

[Heyo]

We can make exactly the same observation about our use of the word God; I find it most disingenuous when certain parties pretend ignorance, on hearing a word in such common usage. Confronted with the concept, we can either try to understand, or we can, as you say, torpedo any attempt to try.

We don't. When we examine gravity we can all agree that the gravitational force is proportional to the masses involved and inverse proportional to the square of their distance. That doesn't go away if we look deeper.
When we examine god, we learn that everything deducted from the use of the word by others disappears. The deeper we look, the less we know. At the end we have an empty phrase, bereft of any meaning.
I've tried more than once to get a definition, here, on other sites and IRL. I've heard vague definitions, self contra-dictionary definitions, refusal to define and elaborate definitions no-one else agrees upon. And most of all, I've found that those who do think they have a definition, are not interested in harmonizing theirs with others.

 

[Dawnofhope]

About the same here except the Indigenous Gods that I've read about are very different to the Christian God and in the last census I believe no religion took over the top spot. Not that I really know what no religion means, I doubt it means they are atheist. If it's the Christian God you were referring to in the OP my answer remains the same, I don't have proof he doesn't exist but I do have plenty of evidence, enough in fact for me to leave Christianity many years ago.

I see you are from Australia and I am from New Zealand.

The New Zealand Maori have a belief in a Supreme Creator God much like the Japanese in Shinto. There are of course many other gods in these indigenous religions but a God that excels others.

In Christianity there are angels or lesser spiritual beings in the Celestial realm. They are not gods of course. Then there is the fallen angel Satan who seems to have had considerable powers despite his fallen status.

So I see common threads within religions whereas others might see irreconcilable differences. I tend to see stories or narratives that are meaningful rather than literal stories that are historical.

No religion is certainly the overwhelming largest group here but there is talk about spiritual not religious.

If by leaving Christianity you mean leaving a set of doctrines and beliefs that can only be seen one way, then I too left this behind.

What is the 'evidence' God of Abraham does not exist?

 

[Dawnofhope]

My evidence is the variety of largely local belief systems that have grown up, all disagreeing on God/s nature, intent and needs.

It certainly appears there are a wide variety of religions that say contradictory things about God and the nature reality.

Secondly, I have no personal experience of God, and despite what some here assume about atheists, I have looked as honestly and openly as my personality allows.

It is certainly difficult to believe in a personal God when you have had no experience with such a Being.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What is the strongest or most compelling argument in your view for the non-existence of God or gods?

There's no testable evidence anywhere.
Everything that used to be attributed to gods and investigated, turned out to be natural phenomenon where no gods are required.
Humans are superstitious animals that tend to invent all kinds of magical "explanations" for things they don't understand.

I'm sure this question has done the rounds on RF ad nauseum. I'm curious as to why people would be completely convinced about the non-existence of God.

"completely convinced" implies some kind of absolute certainty.
I know of almost no atheists who would profess such certainty.

There is a difference between
"I don't believe X is true"
and
"I am convinced X is false"

For me, my atheism is only defined by "I have no reasons to believe any religion is accurate".
The result of which is unbelief.

I don't waste time or energy trying to argue that unfalsifiable entities do NOT exist.
Non-existence is assumed (for all practical intents and purposes) until existence is demonstrated.

If I am not given a valid reason to believe claim X, why would I believe claim X? Especially if X is a mega-extra-ordinary claim which requires me to also believe that the laws of nature can be violated / suspended?

That being said I am a committed theist and the the God I believe in is an Unknowable Essence.

I submit that in any other context, for any other claim... you would instantly recognize the irrationality of believing something defined as "unknowable".

 

[Dawnofhope]

Usually we call "God" someone who is knowable (revealed).

According to the Gospel of John, Jesus is God and through the advent of Jesus, we could enter into a personal relationship with God Himself.

Many believe God made himself known in the past but today they don't know him.

He made Himself know through the Lord Jesus Christ. He also made Himself known through Moses and Muhammad according to the Jews and Muslims. The narrative is someone different within these three Abrahamic Faiths but there are important common elements.

 

[RestlessSoul]

We don't. When we examine gravity we can all agree that the gravitational force is proportional to the masses involved and inverse proportional to the square of their distance. That doesn't go away if we look deeper.
When we examine god, we learn that everything deducted from the use of the word by others disappears. The deeper we look, the less we know. At the end we have an empty phrase, bereft of any meaning.
I've tried more than once to get a definition, here, on other sites and IRL. I've heard vague definitions, self contra-dictionary definitions, refusal to define and elaborate definitions no-one else agrees upon. And most of all, I've found that those who do think they have a definition, are not interested in harmonizing theirs with others.

Well we can assign meaningful values to gravity which have practical applications, sure. Religious people would say we can do that with God, though I’m sure you’d dispute that for lack of evidence. Evidence acceptable to atheists, that is (see endless circuitous arguments on other threads).

I would suggest that if you’re looking for God, or just looking for meaning behind the word, the internet is probably the last place you should be looking.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Where in the Bible did God provide proof of His existence?
Even if it is written in the Bible, how would that be proof to those reading it?

I'm guessing he's referring to the bazilion times that this god apparantly made himself known by performing miracles or having others perform miracles.

Like when +600.000 jews were supposedly stranded in the desert during exodus without food and then god had food drop from the sky.

Or when jesus made a blind man see or resurected the dead.

Or any of those other supposed supernatural events.

He could do such things today. And today, we also have the advantage of smartphones. Almost everyone has a video-camera at their disposal with but the push of a button.

It would be trivial to do, if he were real.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Why can't God allow evil to exist?

I'll even go a step further then that, tbh.

Why must god be a good guy?
Why can't he be a sadistic sociopath who in fact just created a world meant for making us suffer for his enjoyment?

This is why I consider the "problem of evil" a bad argument, when used to argue against gods in general.
At best, it works, somewhat, against good gods. And even then.... I think it's easily countered simply by saying that there can't be any good if evil doesn't exist.

You can't have one without the other.

In the wise words of Beavis and Buthead:

B-head:"...uhuhuhu....hey like... uhuhu...if like nothing sucked, and...uhuhu...everything was cool all the time... then how would you know it was cool???? uhuhuhuhuhuhu...."

Beavis: "mheheheh... yeah!...mhehe. Good question! mhehe."

 

[John53]

I see you are from Australia and I am from New Zealand.

The New Zealand Maori have a belief in a Supreme Creator God much like the Japanese in Shinto. There are of course many other gods in these indigenous religions but a God that excels others.

In Christianity there are angels or lesser spiritual beings in the Celestial realm. They are not gods of course. Then there is the fallen angel Satan who seems to have had considerable powers despite his fallen status.

I've studied the spiritual beliefs of the indigenous people from my local area. Not that much is known these days but I don't think a giant Emu that created the land and now lives with his 2 wives bears little resemblance to the Christian God.

So I see common threads within religions whereas others might see irreconcilable differences. I tend to see stories or narratives that are meaningful rather than literal stories that are historical.

No religion is certainly the overwhelming largest group here but there is talk about spiritual not religious.

If by leaving Christianity you mean leaving a set of doctrines and beliefs that can only be seen one way, then I too left this behind.

By leaving I mean not believing the existence of the Christian God

What is the 'evidence' God of Abraham does not exist?

The complete lack of any contact for me personally.
The vast number of differing Gods.
The bible being used to justify some very evil things in history.
The bible being so open to interpretation.
Children dying because of a drought. Surely a loving God as advertised by Christians could make it rain to spare their suffering.
Church leaders of various denominations using their influence/power/position of trust to molest children.
Lack of credible evidence for the existence of God.
Suffering.
Childhood cancer.
Contradictions in the bible.

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.