Hoover Institute video on Mathematical Challenges to Darwin's Theory

[gnostic]

If consciousness goes out of our body and observes things that were later confirmed, and the consciousness goes back into the body and reports those observations, what is the physical evidence that is observed? Is it the confirmation of the observations? How would any of that mean that this consciousness is in any way physical?

There have never been any evidence of consciousness existing outside of the body, just claims, stories and myths.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Here is my take on, the NDE.

Even though a person may stop breathing and his or her heart stop pumping - clinically dead - the brains may not have cease all functions or brain activities. Not "brain dead", yet.

As I am no doctor or psychologist, and as I have no experience in NDE or know anyone who have, all I can do is to share what I think of possibilities...my opinion.

We know that people who suffer from oxygen deprivation, and breathing in carbon dioxide, this can result in hallucinations.

The brain tissues and cells require oxygen to replenish it to normal healthy and functioning tissues and cells, via blood. Working cells will use the oxygen, and after the energy the cells exerted, carbon dioxide are carry out as waste, through the blood.

So essentially the oxygen in, carbon dioxide out, require blood circulation, and therefore pumping heart and functioning lungs.

But when a person's heart stopped and the person is not breathing - thus the person is clinically dead, then the circulation will stop too.

My guesses are that sometimes when a person are clinically dead, don't necessarily mean the brain all activities immediately stop too.

There may be portion of the brain that still functioning, active, so the electro-chemical pulses in neurons (brain cells) are still active.

So since the blood circulation stopped, the brain is not getting any more oxygen, and there would be built up of carbon dioxide trapped in all brain cells.

So a person can experience some forms of hallucination-like experience.

If unconscious person, like those in a coma can dream, why not a person who is near dead, before reviving?

Not all dreams are the result of REM sleeps, where you can tell and record & measure the involuntary movements of the eyes. A comatose person would not have REM sleep, they are unconscious, not asleep.

Also some people do dreams while not in REM sleep, meaning there are no active eye movements, called "non-rapid eye movement" sleep or NREM sleep.

My guesses of what people experiencing don't required the woo-woo

I am wondering, how soon after the power is disconnected do the lights go out?
Do you know anyone who's heart has stopped pumping who remains conscious during that period of "clinical death". If i recall correctly, a late Australian businessman (Kerry Packer) made the statement after he was clinically dead,

In 1990, while playing polo at Warwick Farm, Sydney, he suffered from a heart attack that left him clinically dead for seven minutes.[47] Packer was revived by paramedics and then airlifted to St Vincent's Private Hospital, Sydney and received bypass surgery from Dr Victor Chang, a pioneering cardiac surgeon. It was not common for an ambulance to have a defibrillator at the time – it was purely by chance that the ambulance which responded to the call had one fitted.

After recovering, Packer donated a large sum to the Ambulance Service of New South Wales to pay for equipping all NSW ambulances with a portable defibrillator (colloquially known as "Packer Whackers"). He told Nick Greiner "I'll go you 50/50", and the NSW State government paid the other half of the cost. He is reported to have said, "Son, I've been to the other side, and let me tell you, there's nothing there."
​

Kerry Packer was a straight shooter, it seems pretty clear to me that he was quite matter-of-fact in his view that when the pump stops, the consciousness stops as well.

Another example was Greg Page from the Wiggles who had to be revived during a concert...he remembered nothing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So you want to argue that if I have no fantastic reason to say that spirits exist then that means that the naturalistic methodology of science is BS and it is more than a methodology, it is the truth and there is not such thing as spirits.

No. What I would like you to do is to demonstrate that the spirits you keep asserting the existence of, actually exist. What I would like you to do is to answer the question I asked, which was,
what reason do we have to think there is something that is not part of nature and not material or physical?

 

[SkepticThinker]

It doesn't make much sense to me. That's just what the evidence says.

The evidence backs up what I said.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

Please explain how this is evidence that at the point where the brain is shutting down, that this is when we are having our most lucid moments.
And then please demonstrate that these mental experiences that are the result of the brain shutting down are evidence of supernatural realms and spirits.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It turned into a spiritual matter when consciousness started leaving the body.
If you want a science based source you must want a place where people are chained to the physical answers even when the answer plainly is not physical unless you call the verified OBEs nothing but lies.
So everyone who disagrees with you it seems is being dishonest.

How? What processes do you propose for this?

Can you show anybody a consciousness without a brain?

 

[SkepticThinker]

If the mind is connected to the body then the mind will not function correctly when the body does not.
When the mind is released from a damaged body, that is a different story.

How did you determine your second sentence?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

No, science disagrees with you about anecdotes. Anecdotes aren't evidence for anybody who hasn't experienced them. And they're subject to the observers' biases.
Show us controlled studies.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Verified OBEs in NDEs is when the claims of the experiences of those people have been verified by those who were present and confirmed what they claim.
That has nothing to do with psychology.

Of course it does. Anything dealing with the mind and/or behaviour falls under the field of psychology.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am wondering, how soon after the power is disconnected do the lights go out?
Do you know anyone who's heart has stopped pumping who remains conscious during that period of "clinical death". If i recall correctly, a late Australian businessman (Kerry Packer) made the statement after he was clinically dead,

In 1990, while playing polo at Warwick Farm, Sydney, he suffered from a heart attack that left him clinically dead for seven minutes.[47] Packer was revived by paramedics and then airlifted to St Vincent's Private Hospital, Sydney and received bypass surgery from Dr Victor Chang, a pioneering cardiac surgeon. It was not common for an ambulance to have a defibrillator at the time – it was purely by chance that the ambulance which responded to the call had one fitted.

After recovering, Packer donated a large sum to the Ambulance Service of New South Wales to pay for equipping all NSW ambulances with a portable defibrillator (colloquially known as "Packer Whackers"). He told Nick Greiner "I'll go you 50/50", and the NSW State government paid the other half of the cost. He is reported to have said, "Son, I've been to the other side, and let me tell you, there's nothing there."
​

Kerry Packer was a straight shooter, it seems pretty clear to me that he was quite matter-of-fact in his view that when the pump stops, the consciousness stops as well.

Another example was Greg Page from the Wiggles who had to be revived during a concert...he remembered nothing.

The brain is heavily dependent upon oxygen. Stop the pump and you stop the supply of fresh oxygen. It quickly shuts down. Luckily for us the cells do not immediately start to die, they simply lose their ability to excite neurons. That is why people do not tend to remember much once their heart stops. A "choke" involving he carotid artery does the same thing. It stops blood flow to the brain and a person passes out much more quickly than from merely stopping the breathing process.

As to how long can after the pump is shut down does the brain begin to die, it is rather quick. Within 4 minutes cells start to die and a person can die 4 to 6 minutes later:

CPR - adult and child after onset of puberty: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia.

With the example that you cited his heart probably did not stop . It probably went into fibrillation. The heart is beating when this happens, but it is out of sync. Some blood is still circulating through the system, but not enough to maintain consciousness. Fibrillation can vary in severity. A sudden strong episode is termed cardia arrest. And a defibrillator restores normal heartbeat (hopefully). His claim of it taking six minutes is reasonable. One could still have low blood flow and not have death of cells for that long. But you seriously want to get a defibrillation as soon as possible. Nice to hear that he paid back to the community.


Cardiac Arrest: Symptoms, Causes & Treatment

 

[gnostic]

I am wondering, how soon after the power is disconnected do the lights go out?
Do you know anyone who's heart has stopped pumping who remains conscious during that period of "clinical death". If i recall correctly, a late Australian businessman (Kerry Packer) made the statement after he was clinically dead,

In 1990, while playing polo at Warwick Farm, Sydney, he suffered from a heart attack that left him clinically dead for seven minutes.[47] Packer was revived by paramedics and then airlifted to St Vincent's Private Hospital, Sydney and received bypass surgery from Dr Victor Chang, a pioneering cardiac surgeon. It was not common for an ambulance to have a defibrillator at the time – it was purely by chance that the ambulance which responded to the call had one fitted.

After recovering, Packer donated a large sum to the Ambulance Service of New South Wales to pay for equipping all NSW ambulances with a portable defibrillator (colloquially known as "Packer Whackers"). He told Nick Greiner "I'll go you 50/50", and the NSW State government paid the other half of the cost. He is reported to have said, "Son, I've been to the other side, and let me tell you, there's nothing there."
​

Kerry Packer was a straight shooter, it seems pretty clear to me that he was quite matter-of-fact in his view that when the pump stops, the consciousness stops as well.

Another example was Greg Page from the Wiggles who had to be revived during a concert...he remembered nothing.

Thanks, Adam.

However, I wasn’t saying that NDE people were “conscious”, when they were having their so-called “experiences”.

I only said there “might be” enough electrochemical pulses in the neurons (I have no which part of the brains that cause dreams), to cause carbon dioxide-induced, hallucination-like dreams of what they believe they may have seen, in the period before the brain cells...

...And I think that most people who do revive, don’t have these these types of experiences.

Anyway I wasn't talking about consciousness, but about the areas in the brains that involving dreams.

 

[Brian2]

No. What I would like you to do is to demonstrate that the spirits you keep asserting the existence of, actually exist. What I would like you to do is to answer the question I asked, which was,
what reason do we have to think there is something that is not part of nature and not material or physical?

I give verified reports from people who claim OBEs in their NDEs and say that this shows that their consciousness was outside their bodies in these OBEs. Hence spirit, not material or physical.
Then you want me to give reason for thinking there is something that is not part of nature and not material or physical.
That is weird to my thinking. Then again, you for some reason do not believe that people have claimed OBEs during NDEs and that what they have reported to have seen and/or heard has been verified by the people who were there.
Verified reports like this are always going to be THE evidence for these OBEs and consciousness having been outside the body. I have just been told that reports like this are never going to be evidence. It sounds like it is useless to even investigate these OBE claims if that is the case.
You and others it seems dismiss the evidence for spirits unless there is evidence for spirits.

 

[Brian2]

Please explain how this is evidence that at the point where the brain is shutting down, that this is when we are having our most lucid moments.
And then please demonstrate that these mental experiences that are the result of the brain shutting down are evidence of supernatural realms and spirits.

The first 2 or 3 "Lines of Evidence" should help in this regard.

 

[Brian2]

How? What processes do you propose for this?

Can you show anybody a consciousness without a brain?

The evidence for a consciousness without a brain is in the OBE reports. Showing that consciousness sounds like something else. Do you want photos or something?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The evidence for a consciousness without a brain is in the OBE reports. Showing that consciousness sounds like something else. Do you want photos or something?

So just stories. No real evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I give verified reports from people who claim OBEs in their NDEs and say that this shows that their consciousness was outside their bodies in these OBEs. Hence spirit, not material or physical.
Then you want me to give reason for thinking there is something that is not part of nature and not material or physical.
That is weird to my thinking. Then again, you for some reason do not believe that people have claimed OBEs during NDEs and that what they have reported to have seen and/or heard has been verified by the people who were there.
Verified reports like this are always going to be THE evidence for these OBEs and consciousness having been outside the body. I have just been told that reports like this are never going to be evidence. It sounds like it is useless to even investigate these OBE claims if that is the case.
You and others it seems dismiss the evidence for spirits unless there is evidence for spirits.

Yes, they verified that people made those claims. So what?

 

[Brian2]

How did you determine your second sentence?

I just hear the reports of the OBEs in the NDEs and realise that the person's mind was released from their anaesthatised and unconscious body, which was not working properly and the minds were working just fine outside the body.
It does take something called belief however, believing the reports, maybe you have no belief to use. But that can't be true, you must belief something, reports given by some people. Do you think it is a matter of needing extraordinary evidence before you will believe what is for you, extraordinary claims.
What is more likely, that a consciousness was floating outside a body or that the person lied?
So they must have lied................maybe they were in collusion with those who verified their reports.
I don't know, give me some reason that you refuse to believe the evidence that has been collected.
Maybe it is just that it goes beyond what your whole life philosophy tells you is true.

 

[Brian2]

No, science disagrees with you about anecdotes. Anecdotes aren't evidence for anybody who hasn't experienced them. And they're subject to the observers' biases.
Show us controlled studies.

Read the article. The OBEers describe their resuscitations accurately and those with no NDEs do not. That sounds like a controlled study to me.

 

[Brian2]

So just stories. No real evidence.

If you say so.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I just hear the reports of the OBEs in the NDEs and realise that the person's mind was released from their anaesthatised and unconscious body, which was not working properly and the minds were working just fine outside the body.
It does take something called belief however, believing the reports, maybe you have no belief to use. But that can't be true, you must belief something, reports given by some people. Do you think it is a matter of needing extraordinary evidence before you will believe what is for you, extraordinary claims.
What is more likely, that a consciousness was floating outside a body or that the person lied?
So they must have lied................maybe they were in collusion with those who verified their reports.
I don't know, give me some reason that you refuse to believe the evidence that has been collected.
Maybe it is just that it goes beyond what your whole life philosophy tells you is true.

How would you support that claim? Think about it. Anesthetized people are not the most reliable witnesses.