Hoover Institute video on Mathematical Challenges to Darwin's Theory

[Brian2]

I just gave you evidence that it isn't a fact. For instance, when the brain is damaged, the mind becomes damaged. You ignored this fact.
You have also claimed that minds can exist without brains ("disembodied mind"). This is a claim for which there is no evidence. We have zero examples of such a thing existing. All evidence points to the apparent fact that minds are tied to physical brains. So I have to ask, what evidence are you talking about?

If the mind is connected to the body then the mind will not function correctly when the body does not.
When the mind is released from a damaged body, that is a different story.

 

[Brian2]

Anecdotes are not exactly "evidence". Is that all?

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It turned into a spiritual matter when consciousness started leaving the body.
If you want a science based source you must want a place where people are chained to the physical answers even when the answer plainly is not physical unless you call the verified OBEs nothing but lies.
So everyone who disagrees with you it seems is being dishonest.

No, that is not the line. Thought appears to be physical. It is still in the realm of science.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

No. They are just tales. You are trying to claim "evidence". This is a scientific matter. What is your testable hypothesis?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, and not all opinions are created equal, hence the superiority of science.

Science has the power but that does not make it right all the time.

I don't believe that I've ever suggested otherwise.

 

[gnostic]

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

Anecdotes are unreliable, because they are highly subjective, personal experiences of people. Anecdotes are stories.

And if that’s what all NDE cases have to offer, then these so-called evidence (anecdotal evidence) are no better than hearsay.

Verifications can only occur if you have physical evidence to support the claims of people who went through NDE of what they have seen or heard.

Can you physically test OBE?

There are no such physical evidence to back their stories or claims.

Lastly, the researchers of NDE are mainly psychologists.

Psychology don’t require to follow the requirements of Scientific Method. Much of their works involved in fielding questions people about their patients’ experiences, what they think or how they feel, all of it subjective views, hence opinions.

The psychologist’s solutions are either counseling or medication or both, which make work for some people, but psychology isn’t exact science, so such solutions don’t always work.

Electric shock therapy? Using electricity is barbaric and dangerous and don’t always work, because not everyone “wired” the same way, so it can cause more damage, physical damage like causing brain damage.

I don’t trust psychology.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I was just responding to what you actually said ( a possible typo)
Yes the brain is shutting down when someone dies and that would be happening at the same time as the person might be experiencing the OBEs with verifiable evidence that they are real.
Studies do not confirm that brain shut down produces OBEs that can be verified.
OBEs that can be verified show that consciousness can exist outside the body.
But I don't really want to waste my time with trying to explain what you can't seem to comprehend.

I don't know of anything that verifies OBE's as anything more than a physiological and chemical response of the brain to stress.

If someone claims that OBE's are evidence of a spirit and that it is leaving the body, then I assume they have eliminated other possibilities. But I never see the demonstration for the spirit in the first place or what was done to eliminate every other possible explanation or even that all possible explanations have been formulated to eliminate.

Do you see where I'm going?

We don't know, so everyone rushes to fill in that gap with their favorite explanation that supports their personal view.

I can't say that there is or isn't a spirit, that it can or can't leave the body and that OBE's are a manifestation of that, but from the perspective of facts and science, there is nothing to make me conclude any of that either no matter what I may personally believe.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

Anecdotes are the least useful evidence in science. Their value is as a basis for questions and discussion that might lead to experiments to see if the anecdote(s) has any merit for further consideration.

A verified anecdote would be objective evidence and not anecdotal evidence.

An anecdote is a casual observation that may or may not be correct. It is easily effected by bias.

With out of body experiences and near death experiences, the phenomena have been reported, but what they mean is an open question that many fill with what they want to believe. As anecdotal evidence, it has inspired research, but the research seems to indicate something to do with the chemistry of the dying brain. If it is anything else, there would have to be some physical evidence to observe. I don't know of any physical evidence for the supernatural. If any is discovered, is it supernatural if we can observe it through natural means?

 

[gnostic]

I don't know of anything that verifies OBE's as anything more than a physiological and chemical response of the brain to stress.

If someone claims that OBE's are evidence of a spirit and that it is leaving the body, then I assume they have eliminated other possibilities. But I never see the demonstration for the spirit in the first place or what was done to eliminate every other possible explanation or even that all possible explanations have been formulated to eliminate.

Do you see where I'm going?

We don't know, so everyone rushes to fill in that gap with their favorite explanation that supports their personal view.

I can't say that there is or isn't a spirit, that it can or can't leave the body and that OBE's are a manifestation of that, but from the perspective of facts and science, there is nothing to make me conclude any of that either no matter what I may personally believe.

Here is my take on, the NDE.

Even though a person may stop breathing and his or her heart stop pumping - clinically dead - the brains may not have cease all functions or brain activities. Not "brain dead", yet.

As I am no doctor or psychologist, and as I have no experience in NDE or know anyone who have, all I can do is to share what I think of possibilities...my opinion.

We know that people who suffer from oxygen deprivation, and breathing in carbon dioxide, this can result in hallucinations.

The brain tissues and cells require oxygen to replenish it to normal healthy and functioning tissues and cells, via blood. Working cells will use the oxygen, and after the energy the cells exerted, carbon dioxide are carry out as waste, through the blood.

So essentially the oxygen in, carbon dioxide out, require blood circulation, and therefore pumping heart and functioning lungs.

But when a person's heart stopped and the person is not breathing - thus the person is clinically dead, then the circulation will stop too.

My guesses are that sometimes when a person are clinically dead, don't necessarily mean the brain all activities immediately stop too.

There may be portion of the brain that still functioning, active, so the electro-chemical pulses in neurons (brain cells) are still active.

So since the blood circulation stopped, the brain is not getting any more oxygen, and there would be built up of carbon dioxide trapped in all brain cells.

So a person can experience some forms of hallucination-like experience.

If unconscious person, like those in a coma can dream, why not a person who is near dead, before reviving?

Not all dreams are the result of REM sleeps, where you can tell and record & measure the involuntary movements of the eyes. A comatose person would not have REM sleep, they are unconscious, not asleep.

Also some people do dreams while not in REM sleep, meaning there are no active eye movements, called "non-rapid eye movement" sleep or NREM sleep.

My guesses of what people experiencing don't required the woo-woo

 

[gnostic]

If the mind is connected to the body then the mind will not function correctly when the body does not.

That's what @SkepticThinker has been saying.

Verified anecdotes are evidence and verification is an important part of determining the truth of the OBE anecdotes.
Any scientific testing of OBEs in NDEs rely on anecdotes, the reports from those who say they have had an NDE with an OBE.
Science disagrees with what you say about anecdotes it seems.

Anecdotes are stories, not evidence...or not reliable evidence, since as @Dan From Smithville had mentioned NDE people tends to color what they have experienced with what they like to believe:

Do you see where I'm going?

We don't know, so everyone rushes to fill in that gap with their favorite explanation that supports their personal view.

I can't say that there is or isn't a spirit, that it can or can't leave the body and that OBE's are a manifestation of that, but from the perspective of facts and science, there is nothing to make me conclude any of that either no matter what I may personally believe.

 

[Brian2]

No, that is not the line. Thought appears to be physical. It is still in the realm of science.

So thought can only be in the realm of science if it is claimed to be physical? So science has to either deny the OBEs or search for an answer in the brain.
Sounds a bit limiting to me.
How about the OBEs with verification being evidence for consciousness being possible outside the physical body? This should not be disputed.
But of course there needs to be real verification by real scientists and real science.

 

[Brian2]

No. They are just tales. You are trying to claim "evidence". This is a scientific matter. What is your testable hypothesis?

And how do you think it is possible to study these NDEs and OBEs without tales from the people who claim to have had them?

 

[Brian2]

I don't believe that I've ever suggested otherwise.

OK

 

[Brian2]

Verifications can only occur if you have physical evidence to support the claims of people who went through NDE of what they have seen or heard.

Verified OBEs in NDEs is when the claims of the experiences of those people have been verified by those who were present and confirmed what they claim.
That has nothing to do with psychology.

 

[Brian2]

I don't know of anything that verifies OBE's as anything more than a physiological and chemical response of the brain to stress.

Reports of events in the OBEs which were confirmed by people present do confirm the OBEs imo.

If someone claims that OBE's are evidence of a spirit and that it is leaving the body, then I assume they have eliminated other possibilities. But I never see the demonstration for the spirit in the first place or what was done to eliminate every other possible explanation or even that all possible explanations have been formulated to eliminate.

Do you see where I'm going?

Having been involved in and read other such discussions, I know where you're going.
After many years of pondering and research etc Science has come up with no explanation for the verified OBEs in NDEs. We do hear possible physical explanations of other aspects of the NDEs only.
Do I need to demonstrate that spirits exist before there can be accepted evidence for spirits?
If the stories from people who have witnessed certain things at a time when they were unconscious and even in physically in another room, have been confirmed by others there, then is there another explanation than consciousness being outside the body?

We don't know, so everyone rushes to fill in that gap with their favorite explanation that supports their personal view.

I can't say that there is or isn't a spirit, that it can or can't leave the body and that OBE's are a manifestation of that, but from the perspective of facts and science, there is nothing to make me conclude any of that either no matter what I may personally believe.

We must be reading different reports about OBEs in NDEs. Then again maybe your standards are higher than mine.
Personally I think it is hard for scientists to conclude that consciousness can exist outside the body. Rather than say that, they say that the evidence points to further research being needed in these areas.

 

[Brian2]

With out of body experiences and near death experiences, the phenomena have been reported, but what they mean is an open question that many fill with what they want to believe. As anecdotal evidence, it has inspired research, but the research seems to indicate something to do with the chemistry of the dying brain. If it is anything else, there would have to be some physical evidence to observe. I don't know of any physical evidence for the supernatural. If any is discovered, is it supernatural if we can observe it through natural means?

I'm not sure what you mean. If consciousness goes out of our body and observes things that were later confirmed, and the consciousness goes back into the body and reports those observations, what is the physical evidence that is observed? Is it the confirmation of the observations? How would any of that mean that this consciousness is in any way physical?

 

[Brian2]

Here is my take on, the NDE.

Even though a person may stop breathing and his or her heart stop pumping - clinically dead - the brains may not have cease all functions or brain activities. Not "brain dead", yet.

As I am no doctor or psychologist, and as I have no experience in NDE or know anyone who have, all I can do is to share what I think of possibilities...my opinion.

We know that people who suffer from oxygen deprivation, and breathing in carbon dioxide, this can result in hallucinations.

The brain tissues and cells require oxygen to replenish it to normal healthy and functioning tissues and cells, via blood. Working cells will use the oxygen, and after the energy the cells exerted, carbon dioxide are carry out as waste, through the blood.

So essentially the oxygen in, carbon dioxide out, require blood circulation, and therefore pumping heart and functioning lungs.

But when a person's heart stopped and the person is not breathing - thus the person is clinically dead, then the circulation will stop too.

My guesses are that sometimes when a person are clinically dead, don't necessarily mean the brain all activities immediately stop too.

There may be portion of the brain that still functioning, active, so the electro-chemical pulses in neurons (brain cells) are still active.

So since the blood circulation stopped, the brain is not getting any more oxygen, and there would be built up of carbon dioxide trapped in all brain cells.

So a person can experience some forms of hallucination-like experience.

If unconscious person, like those in a coma can dream, why not a person who is near dead, before reviving?

Not all dreams are the result of REM sleeps, where you can tell and record & measure the involuntary movements of the eyes. A comatose person would not have REM sleep, they are unconscious, not asleep.

Also some people do dreams while not in REM sleep, meaning there are no active eye movements, called "non-rapid eye movement" sleep or NREM sleep.

My guesses of what people experiencing don't required the woo-woo

So it could be just people having realistic dreams of events while unconscious and these events being confirmed later to have taken place? OK.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So thought can only be in the realm of science if it is claimed to be physical? So science has to either deny the OBEs or search for an answer in the brain.
Sounds a bit limiting to me.
How about the OBEs with verification being evidence for consciousness being possible outside the physical body? This should not be disputed.
But of course there needs to be real verification by real scientists and real science.

That is a mischaracterization. There are no OBE' s with reliable confirmation. At least not that I know of. Did you forget your failure with NDE's already.

The fact is that the evidence strongly supports that thought is a chemical process only.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So it could be just people having realistic dreams of events while unconscious and these events being confirmed later to have taken place? OK.

They have not been "confirmed". You only had one poorly done paper that was merely a collection of anecdotes.

You do not have evidence. To even begin to have evidence you first need a testable hypothesis. What is the hypothesis and how is it to be tested?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And how do you think it is possible to study these NDEs and OBEs without tales from the people who claim to have had them?

It is not my problem. That is the problem of those that want to believe.

Until you find something more substantial than poorly documented anecdotes you will only have stories.