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Fighting in Islam

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
Currently they are 'defending' themselves across the entire Sahel.

In November 2004, a Secretary-General of the United Nations report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act"
Terrorism - Wikipedia

It's a sign of the times. Indiscriminate killing is increasing all over the world.
It is often due to mental health but where we find poverty and corruption, we also find extremism and terrorism.

The terms "terrorism" and "terrorist" gained renewed currency in the 1970s as a result of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, the Northern Ireland conflict, the Basque conflict, and the operations of groups such as the Red Army Faction.

Yes, there is growing Islamic millitancy. It is plainly visible.
Terrorists with strong political aims don't need religion to further their aims. They do not represent Muslims or Islam.
Neither does the IRA represent Catholics.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
In November 2004, a Secretary-General of the United Nations report described terrorism as any act "intended to cause death or serious bodily harm to civilians or non-combatants with the purpose of intimidating a population or compelling a government or an international organization to do or abstain from doing any act"
Terrorism - Wikipedia

It's a sign of the times. Indiscriminate killing is increasing all over the world.
It is often due to mental health but where we find poverty and corruption, we also find extremism and terrorism.

The terms "terrorism" and "terrorist" gained renewed currency in the 1970s as a result of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, the Northern Ireland conflict, the Basque conflict, and the operations of groups such as the Red Army Faction.

Yes, there is growing Islamic millitancy. It is plainly visible.
Terrorists with strong political aims don't need religion to further their aims. They do not represent Muslims or Islam.
Neither does the IRA represent Catholics.

I understand that's the lie you have to tell yourself in order to stay a Muslim.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
I understand that's the lie you have to tell yourself..
I understand that many people confuse religion with politics.

The IRA were fighting for a united Ireland.
Many Muslim terrorist groups have similar aims .. to oust minority govts. etc.

There are no easy answers to the problems in the world. Blaming everything onto religion is not a solution. Far from it.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
These are moderated in 192 and 193 "... if they cease ..."
2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
I think you may have mistyped on 2:224 because I'm seeing it promote peace which moderates 216 and 218.
2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
wrong verse, 264 is about charity. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
We talked about surah 8 already, it is moderated by 8:61, " ... if they incline towards peace ... "
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
Moderated by 3:159 " ... it is part of Allah's mercy to deal gently with them ... "
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
moderated by 33:60 " ... if they desist not ... "
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".
modertated by 4:36, 4:86, 4:90 " ... be kind to all ... " " ... return a kindness with more kindness ... " " ... if they withdraw send peace ... "

{ Continued in next post }
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
- 47:4 "So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike their necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them ...".
"God could have taken vengeance upon them, but (He ordered armed struggle) to test some of you ...".
"Those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds".
- 47:20 through 47:23 "when a precise surah is revealed and fighting is mentioned therein, you see those in whose hearts is hypocrisy looking at you with a look of one overcome by death... when the matter (preparation for Jihad) is resolved, then if they had been true to Allah [by fighting], it would have been better for them".
- 47:31 "We will surely test you until We make evident those who strive [wage jihad]".
- 47:35 "So do not weaken and call for peace while you are superior".
47:4 is a bit strange, it seems to say they are taken as captives and potentially released
Also, the mention of jihad, imv, is always a signal for a spiritual layer to the verses. The entire surah can be read as an inner struggle. Even the captives as a metaphor for inner demons fits. One is directed to be vigilant and strike repeatedly. But total destruction of these inner demons isn't needed, and this is reassuring because some cannot destroy their inner demons. so they are bound, and potentially released later when fighting has ceased. When does fighting cease? The exmaple given is someone who can read a surah about fighting and maintains resolve in their heart. A person could cultivate this, and bind their inner demons with it.
- 22:58 "Those who emigrated for the cause of Allah and then were killed or died - Allah will surely provide for them a good provision".
22:67, 22:72, 22:78 the cause of Allah is defined. Not fighting. Preaching, prayer, and charity.
- 49:15 "The believers ... strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah".
"The cause" could be a peaceful cause... And anyways, 49:6 " ... ascertain the truth from evil-doers ... " is merciful to evil doers... so theres that since we're picking and choosing verses from the surah.
- 66:9 "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them".
first of all, who likes hypocrites? second, a Kufr, if I understand a specific kind of denier of whom it is appropriate to strive hard against. It's also kind of a random comment in the middle of a short surah. It would be good to see what other scholars make of the entire thing.
- 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure".
- 61:10 through 61:13 "Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty? You shall believe in Allah and His Messenger, and struggle hard in Allah's way with your property and your lives. He will admit you to Gardens. and other things you love, help from God and a nigh victory".
It's a short surah, go back one, 60:7-8 " ... it may be that Allah grant love between you and your enemies ... " " ... Allah does not forbid kindess to your enemies ... "
- 48:16 "You shall be called against a people possessed of great might to fight them".
- 48:29 "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers".
48:16 is moderated in that same verse, "... fight them or they surrender ... "
48:29 strength could be resolve or restraint here
- 5:33 "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified".
- 5:35 - "O ye who believe! ... strive in His way".
- 5:54 "mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way".
moderated by 5:34 " ... unless they repent ... "
5:42 and 5:45 " ... judge them justly ..." " ... charity atones ... "
Allah's way is 5:74 " ... most merciful ... "
- 9;5, "kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush".
- 9:13 "Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first".
- 9:14 "Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands".
- 9:16 "Do you think that you will be left (as you are) while Allah has not yet made evident those among you who strive (for His cause)".
- 9:19 "strives in the cause of Allah".
- 9:20 "The ones who have believed, emigrated and striven in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:29 "Fight against those who have been given the Scripture [Jews and Christians]".
- 9:30 "The Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah ... May Allah destroy them".
- 9:36 "Fight against the disbelievers".
- 9:38 "What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth?".
- 9:39 "If you do not go forth, He will punish you".
- 9:41 "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah".
- 9:44 "Those who believe in God and the Day of Judgment do not ask you whether they should fight for the cause of God".
- 9:45 "It is only those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihad)" [clarification added by Mohsin Khan translation].
- 9:52 "Can you expect for us (any fate) other than one of two glorious things- (Martyrdom or victory)?".
- 9:73 "O Prophet, fight against the disbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh upon them".
- 9:81 "they hated to strive and fight with their properties and their lives in the Cause of Allah''.
- 9:86 "Believe in Allah and strive hard along with His Messenger".
- 9:88 "But the messenger and those who believe with him strive with their wealth and their lives".
- 9:93 "The blameworthy ones are those who ask for exemption [from fighting] despite their ability".
- 9:111 "Surely Allah has bought from the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain".
- 9:123 "Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you"
The whole surah can be read as a treatise against breaking treaties. :cool: A treaty could be literal in the case of territorial conflict; could be metaphorical. It could be an inner treaty to pray give charity and have faith. It could be assets which have been consecrated to a cause...
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I think you may have mistyped on 2:224 because I'm seeing it promote peace which moderates 216 and 218.

Again I have a busy day ahead, but I'll answer this. Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Here's what I said about 2:224 in my summary:

Verse 224 appears to contradict much of what we have just read, "Do not swear by God not to do good things, or have piety, or make peace among people. God is All-hearing and All-knowing". We have already seen calls for violence, with more to come, yet this calls for peace-making, which raises the question of how Muslims are supposed to reconcile this with commands such as, "Fighting is prescribed for you", and, "Slay them where you find them". To answer that, each individual must read the entire Qur'an to decide in which direction the majority of commands and overall tone points. Or, to engage in some speculation, it could mean 'among your people (i.e.: Muslims)', or to reconcile with unbelievers by bringing them to Islam. Either way, those keen to find peaceful coexistence in the Qur'an have few verses to cling to, but this is one of them.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Again I have a busy day ahead, but I'll answer this. Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Here's what I said about 2:224 in my summary:

Verse 224 appears to contradict much of what we have just read, "Do not swear by God not to do good things, or have piety, or make peace among people. God is All-hearing and All-knowing". We have already seen calls for violence, with more to come, yet this calls for peace-making, which raises the question of how Muslims are supposed to reconcile this with commands such as, "Fighting is prescribed for you", and, "Slay them where you find them". To answer that, each individual must read the entire Qur'an to decide in which direction the majority of commands and overall tone points. Or, to engage in some speculation, it could mean 'among your people (i.e.: Muslims)', or to reconcile with unbelievers by bringing them to Islam. Either way, those keen to find peaceful coexistence in the Qur'an have few verses to cling to, but this is one of them.
WooHoo! Got one!
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".
- 2:216 "Fighting is prescribed for you".
- 2:218 "those who ... fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah".
- 2:224 "So fight in God's way".
- 2:264 "give us victory over the disbelieving people".
- 8:12 "Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them".
- 8:17 "And you did not kill them, but it was Allah who killed them".
- 8:39 "fight them".
- 8:65 "O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight".
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
- 3:169 "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead".
- 33:16 "Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing".
- 33:18 "Allah knows those among you who come not to the fight".
- 33:20 "They [Hypocrites] would not fight except for a little".
- 33:26 "some you [Mohamed] killed"
- 33:61 "wherever they are found they shall be seized and murdered, a (horrible) murdering".
- 4:71 "Believers, march [to battle] in small groups or all together".
- 4:74 "Those who want to buy the life hereafter with this life should fight for the cause of God".
- 4:75 "And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah".
- 4:76 "Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of Satan".
- 4:77 "when the fighting was ordained for them ... they say: 'Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting?'".
- 4:84 "Then fight in Allah's cause ... and rouse the believers".
- 4:89 "seize them and slay them wherever ye find them".
- 4:91 "seize them and slay them".
- 4:94 "go forth [to fight] in the cause of Allah".
- 4:95 "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) ... to those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah".
" Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight".
"Those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home)".
- 4:110 "Forsake your home in the cause of Allah".
- 4:104 "Relent not in pursuit of the enemy".

continued ....

Islamic early history is about the persecution of a minority religion for believing in one God. God in the Quran tells them to fight for their rights. That’s what it’s all about.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Islamic early history is about the persecution of a minority religion for believing in one God. God in the Quran tells them to fight for their rights. That’s what it’s all about.

In France? In India? The truth is that the Arabian Peninsula was never attacked. Muslim armies had to travel great distances to find people to defend themselves against.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
wrong verse, 264 is about charity. The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Thanks for the editing. That's verse 2:286. It's the last sentence in surah 2, and if you look at the rest of 286, it's a very oddly placed non sequitur.

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thanks for the editing. That's verse 2:286. It's the last sentence in surah 2, and if you look at the rest of 286, it's a very oddly placed non sequitur.

Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity. It will have [the consequence of] what [good] it has gained, and it will bear [the consequence of] what [evil] it has earned. "Our Lord, do not impose blame upon us if we have forgotten or erred. Our Lord, and lay not upon us a burden like that which You laid upon those before us. Our Lord, and burden us not with that which we have no ability to bear. And pardon us; and forgive us; and have mercy upon us. You are our protector, so give us victory over the disbelieving people."
There's a translation issue here. The word translated as vistory appears to be more often translated as "help". The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Quran Dictionary

Also, we don't know the type of kufr beng spoken about. Some types it would be good to defeat. Hypocrites and those who hide the truth are examples.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
These are moderated in 192 and 193 "... if they cease ..."

I addressed this in post 35.

One thing you learn when you read the Qur'an is that it is 100% binary. There is ONLY Islam and not-Islam - 6,236 verses of it. Anything that does not actively support the practice of Islam is described as 'fitnah' and/or 'fasad'. If the unbelievers "cease" or "desist" as in verse 2:193, that means cease promoting non-Islamic theology - not necessarily cease fighting. IMO.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Moderated by 3:159 " ... it is part of Allah's mercy to deal gently with them ... "

That's referring to how Mohamed dealt with some of his fighters who were lamenting the deaths of some comrades. It has nothing to do with unbelievers. Mohamed was simply trying to keep his men in fighting mode.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
And the Answer is . . . An-Naseer! - Understand Al-Qur'an Academy

Also, anyone who "hides the truth" is by definition an unbeliever.
Someone who hides the truth, that's a bad character trait, agreed? Wouldn't the world be a better place without such people? What if the big picture is: "Eliminate the Kufr as an ideology". It's not an individual, it's a manner of conduct which needs to be eradicated?

Too optimistic?
I addressed this in post 35.

One thing you learn when you read the Qur'an is that it is 100% binary. There is ONLY Islam and not-Islam - 6,236 verses of it. Anything that does not actively support the practice of Islam is described as 'fitnah' and/or 'fasad'. If the unbelievers "cease" or "desist" as in verse 2:193, that means cease promoting non-Islamic theology - not necessarily cease fighting. IMO.
Yes, I remember. The idea that fitnah is all-inclusive is a minority opinion.

In making a long list of snippets of verses, my snippet moderates your snippets. How much it moderates, I suppose is subjective. But the text says repeatedly " if they cease ". Leaving that out makes the other verses seem more extreme. These are sequential verses, leaving out the middle one is unfair. It's not like the unbelievers get exterminated even if they submit to Allah. That's the most important thing. I know you didn't claim that directly, but the list you compiled makes it seem that way.
That's referring to how Mohamed dealt with some of his fighters who were lamenting the deaths of some comrades. It has nothing to do with unbelievers. Mohamed was simply trying to keep his men in fighting mode.
Yes, I see that now, thank you. I'll review surah 3 again and the verses you posted. If I can't find anything else moderating these verses, I'll give them to you ( at least for now :) ).
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
- 3:143 "And certainly you desired death [martyrdom in battle]".
- 3:145 "in their fight for the cause of God".
- 3:146 "grant us victory over the unbelievers".
- 3:152 "when you slew them by His permission".
- 3:157 "And if you are slain in the way of Allah or you die, certainly forgiveness comes from Allah".
- 3:158 "Whether you die or are killed, unto Allah you will be gathered".
- 3:167 "Come now, fight in the way of God".
3:143 - does martyrdom mean offensive strikes? could be a defensive self sacrifice
3:145 - i think this may be another typo. this verse doesn't speak about fighting
3:146 - same as above
3:152 - yes, violent
3:157 - again, it could be martyrdom in self defense
3:167 - maybe violent

So that's 2 violent verses. These can be moderated by 3:127-129. " ... it's not for you to choose mercy or punishment ... Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful. "
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
In France? In India? The truth is that the Arabian Peninsula was never attacked. Muslim armies had to travel great distances to find people to defend themselves against.

That was after Muhammad passed away. By that time the Caliphs had decided not to follow the defensive laws of the Quran.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
That was after Muhammad passed away. By that time the Caliphs had decided not to follow the defensive laws of the Quran.

LOL!

So, Allah spent all that time and effort to create Islam only for this prime audience to IMMEDIATELY get it wrong????? You are too funny.
 

muhammad_isa

Well-Known Member
So, Allah spent all that time and effort to create Islam only for this prime audience to IMMEDIATELY get it wrong????? You are too funny.
Well, clearly that is the truth.
They started fighting amongst themselves, not long after the prophet SAW passed away.

Evil happens. :(
 
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