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Fighting in Islam

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
modertated by 4:36,

Now read 4:37 in relation to 4:36. It says, "Who hoard their wealth and enjoin avarice on others, and hide that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty. For disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom."

It automatically describes those who don't comply with the commands of 4:36 as disbelievers. Again, and always, those who don't practice as the Qur'an commands are labeled as unbelievers. The wedge gets driven ever deeper with every surah.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Now read 4:37 in relation to 4:36. It says, "Who hoard their wealth and enjoin avarice on others, and hide that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty. For disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom."

It automatically describes those who don't comply with the commands of 4:36 as disbelievers. Again, and always, those who don't practice as the Qur'an commands are labeled as unbelievers. The wedge gets driven ever deeper with every surah.
I don't see that at all. 4:36 has a list of virtues, 4:37 describes being stingy as a flaw. Then it compares refusing to give assets as a form of disbelief. Yes disbelief is "the enemy" of islam.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I don't see that at all. 4:36 has a list of virtues, 4:37 describes being stingy as a flaw. Then it compares refusing to give assets as a form of disbelief. Yes disbelief is "the enemy" of islam.

Verse 4:37 is simply an extension of that list, and as usual, the complaint that those who don't comply are unbelievers is included.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
47:4 is a bit strange, it seems to say they are taken as captives and potentially released
Also, the mention of jihad, imv, is always a signal for a spiritual layer to the verses. The entire surah can be read as an inner struggle. Even the captives as a metaphor for inner demons fits. One is directed to be vigilant and strike repeatedly. But total destruction of these inner demons isn't needed, and this is reassuring because some cannot destroy their inner demons. so they are bound, and potentially released later when fighting has ceased. When does fighting cease? The exmaple given is someone who can read a surah about fighting and maintains resolve in their heart. A person could cultivate this, and bind their inner demons with it..

Surah 47 is one big anti-unbeliever hate-fest. It speaks of slaughter and not relenting when having a military advantage over them.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
22:67, 22:72, 22:78 the cause of Allah is defined. Not fighting. Preaching, prayer, and charity.

"Invite them to Islam" means to invoke the message that was later codified in verse 9:29. Tell them to accept Islam or fight. Many such 'invitations' have been issued.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
"The cause" could be a peaceful cause...

There are several examples in which 'jihad' and 'qatl' are used interchangeably. The expression "to strive with their wealth and their lives/persons" is used in the context of fighting in many such verses. If you read the Qur'an, you would see what I mean.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
49:6 " ... ascertain the truth from evil-doers ... " is merciful to evil doers...

Here's the verse: Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, if one who publicly commits sins brings you any news, ascertain its truthfulness carefully, lest you harm people through ignorance and then regret what you have done.

I don't see the bit I underlined. Besides, there are literally hundreds of verses that say Allah will NOT be merciful to evil doers. Many hundreds.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
"Invite them to Islam" means to invoke the message that was later codified in verse 9:29. Tell them to accept Islam or fight. Many such 'invitations' have been issued.
Surah 9 is about broken treaties and commitments. Is there a real linguistic connection between 22:78 and 9:29?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There are several examples in which 'jihad' and 'qatl' are used interchangeably. The expression "to strive with their wealth and their lives/persons" is used in the context of fighting in many such verses. If you read the Qur'an, you would see what I mean.
If you want to talk about those examples, I'm up for it. No rush of course.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Here's the verse: Muhammad Sarwar: Believers, if one who publicly commits sins brings you any news, ascertain its truthfulness carefully, lest you harm people through ignorance and then regret what you have done.

I don't see the bit I underlined. Besides, there are literally hundreds of verses that say Allah will NOT be merciful to evil doers. Many hundreds.
yes, the underlined was my conclusion. sorry that wasn't clear. either way, this is 1 verse which directs to proper merciful treatment.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
From the link:

"If they leave you alone and do not fight against you and offer you peace,, then Allah does not permit you to harm them."
From the link:

"If they leave you alone and do not fight against you and offer you peace,, then Allah does not permit you to harm them."

If I remember correctly, this is in regard to the siege of Mecca. It's telling Muslims to leave alone those in the city who do not try to repel the would-be conquerors. There's no peace in that - only sweeping in, taking over, and not killing those who didn't resist. Hitler didn't kill all the Parisians when he swept into Paris.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
OK, your opinion vs. my opinion is a draw.

Nothing I said about surah 47 is "opinion". You can't possibly read anything but sheer hatred in it. I don't see how you can look past expressions of contempt like, "How terrible it will be for them when the angels take away their souls by striking their faces and their backs.", and, "... those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder." That's you and me.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Surah 9 is about broken treaties and commitments.

No it isn't. It's about aggressive warfare. Mohamed tried his best to start a war with the Byzantines (his successors eventually made good on his desires). Much of surah 9 is a naked call-to-arms.

Is there a real linguistic connection between 22:78 and 9:29?

Muslims believe the entire Qur'an is connected. I don't really understand your question.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
If you want to talk about those examples, I'm up for it. No rush of course.

I already have it teed up (There are other examples, but I haven't gathered them all yet.):

Sura 9 contains the following verses in which conjugations of 'jihad' (struggle) are clearly used interchangeably with those of 'qatl' (kill/fight), and all in the context of fighting for Allah and Islam. I have shown in parentheses whether 'qatl' or 'jihad' was used as the root word:

9:12 - But if, after coming to terms with you, they break their oaths and revile your belief, fight (qatl) the leaders of the disbelief - for they have no oaths - in order that they will desist.
9:13 - Will you not fight (qatl) against those who have broken their oaths and conspired to expel the Messenger?
9:14 - Fight (qatl) them, Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.
9:16 - Did you suppose that you would be left before Allah has known those of you who fought (jihad) and did not take a confidant other than Allah, His Messenger, and the believers? Allah is Aware of what you do.
9:19 - Do you consider giving drink to the pilgrims and inhabiting the Sacred Mosque are the same as one who believes in Allah and the Last Day, and struggles (jihad) in the Way of Allah? These are not held equal by Allah. Allah does not guide the harm doers. (In this case 'jihad' is interpreted in most translations as 'struggle' or 'strive', but is used in the context of fighting. Here, Allah is telling the faithful that simply cheering and praying will not please him as much as fighting).
9:20 - Those who believe, have migrated, and struggle (jihad) in the Way of Allah with their wealth and their persons are greater in rank with Allah. It is they who are the winners (continuation of 9:19).
9:24 - Say: 'If your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your wives, your tribes, the property you have acquired, the merchandise you fear will not be sold, and the homes you love, are dearer to you than Allah, His Messenger and the struggling (jihad) for His Way, then wait until Allah shall bring His command. Allah does not guide the evildoers'.
9:25- Allah has helped you on many a battle field. In the Battle of Hunain, when your numbers were pleasing you they availed you nothing; the earth, for all its vastness, seemed to close in upon you and you turned your backs and fled. (I've included this to prove that warfare is the topic at hand, lest anyone tries to tell us Mohamed was organizing a bake sale).
9:29 - Fight (qatl) those who neither believe in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His Messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the Book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated.
9:39 - If you do not go forth, He will punish you with a painful punishment and replace you by another nation. You will in no way harm Him; for Allah has power over all things. (This shows Allah/Mohamed is still cajoling and threatening the faithful to lay down their lives for him.)
9:41 - Whether lightly or heavily, march on and struggle (jihad) for the Way of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you know.
9:44 - Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day will not ask your permission so that they may struggle (jihad) with their wealth and themselves. Allah knows best the righteous.

Notice that 'qatl' is the root word for the first three verses above, but gives way to 'jihad' in the next four, reverts to 'qatl' in the infamous 9:29, and then goes back to 'jihad' by 9:41, proving that the two are used interchangeably. It also demonstrates that "go forth (9:39)" is code for going to battle. Verse 9:41 should leave no doubt in anyone's mind that 'jihad' is used in the military sense.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
If you want to talk about those examples, I'm up for it. No rush of course.

Surah 2 also provides an example (plus a bonus). Verse 2:216 picks up where 2:190 - 2:193 leave off. The Arabic word for fighting (qatl) is used in this verse, and six of the seven translators have it as "fighting", but Mohsin Khan takes the leap all the way to "jihad", which as you can see, he equates with fighting:

Mohsin Khan: Jihad (holy fighting in Allah's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.

Verse 2:217 continues to speak of fighting all the while using 'qatl'.

Then 2:218 switches to 'jihad', but in this case three other translators used "fight". To these scholars the link is undeniable.

Now for the bonus. Disbelief in Allah (and therefore Islam) is explicitly lumped in with fitnah as being worse than killing. This again puts paid to the lie that fighting is only appropriate in self defense. There's a reason we're still dealing with this barbarity 1400 years later.
 
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