Homosexuality and religious.

[F1fan]

Maybe one day you will get the chance to find out the meaning.

Why? Do you want me to feel anxiety and distress that I need words that are not realistic to feel something good about myself? Why aren't you happy that I have no such needs, and don't feel a need for affirmations to bolster my mental state?

See the problem with religious thinking? It assumes it has the truth, and that non-believers are deficient and/or wrong. `

 

[F1fan]

I disapprove of homosexual behavior because of the laws of my religion,

Yet you are the one who assigns meaning and authority to your religion, so it is your choice.

but I am not homophobic by definition since I can separate the behavior from the people.

Yet you have decided to be a part of Bahai despite its prejudice against gays, so that makes you complicit and in agreement with it, unless you protest this law to your religion's hierarchy. This is like the "I was just following orders" excuse. There must be something you agree with to keep quiet, because how it is just and moral to gays?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The great thing about atheism is that it is 100% a freewill choice.

It is more of an analysis than free choice. The absence of any evidence for God, messengers, manifestations and soul forces us to abandon our belief in these things.

Why does it sound sillier every time I read it?

Because it is silly.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem, of course, is that "the stated will of the diety" is never actually stated by the deity, but rather by some human person making representations claiming to know what that will is. But the reasons given in such representations never do amount to anything like "evidence" that can be truly examinded and tested. Once again, it just falls back on a willingness to accept or believe. This, the skeptic can never do.

I think it is very important to say this: "The Message of Baha'u'llah can change minds," but only those minds willing to accept without real evidence the claims about the provenance of that Message.

I am with King Canute on this: his storied attempt to command the incoming tide stop, and not wet his feet and robes, was his way of saying, "look folks, the reality is, the King is a man, and man does not command the laws of nature." Canute was a lot more sensible, in my view, than a lot of believers in my own time.

That is Faith. Yet I see that the claim is amply demonstrated. We have the records.

The story of Vahid is an example of how God does prove the Message, but only to those that make the effort to seek it out.

Also consider, this proof of an innate knowledge of all that is, was tested by the authorities, yet they could not disprove that ability.

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

It's not a long story, but it his account of meeting the Bab, sent by the Shah to determine the truth of the Message of the Bab.

If you choose to read it, you may see why many see there is evidence. Baha'u'llah was able to do this and most astonishing, so was Abdul'baha.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

I read those kinds of affirmations and all I see is a cruel rebuke disguised as "I turned to God and got better, so why didn't you?" Or in the instance of the post you replied to, "My wife turned to Baha'i, and she got better." I see it as an "in your face" mindset and an attempt to rub my nose in the fact that they found a meaningful purpose in their life with the Abrahamic God despite their pain and suffering, and that there must be something seriously wrong with me because I did not. I maybe overly sensitive, but that's what I see.

Interesting. I was never deeply integrated into any religion, even as a kid. My sister was totally engrossed and I could not see what the hell was so awesome about what she was going though. Even as a kid I was skeptical and asking questions, and the answers I got were not satisfactory, so I was even more suspicious.

Oddly, the response i got to the bit you quoted by a Bahai was that he hoped I can experience the meaning from the affirmation as he did. It is an arrogant thing to say. He doesn't acknowledge I have no hole in my life that I need to plug with religious jargon. In essence it is a condemnation, that I am wrong and that I need to have some sort of breakdown, and have emptiness, so I can seek answers in a religion. The thing is I've never needed answers from religion, even though I have been exposed to them my whole life.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why? Do you want me to feel anxiety and distress that I need words that are not realistic to feel something good about myself? Why aren't you happy that I have no such needs, and don't feel a need for affirmations to bolster my mental state?

See the problem with religious thinking? It assumes it has the truth, and that non-believers are deficient and/or wrong. `

Condescending is part of the 'us versus them' attitude. There are only two groups here ... Baha'i and non-Baha'i. Some unity that is.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why? Do you want me to feel anxiety and distress that I need words that are not realistic to feel something good about myself? Why aren't you happy that I have no such needs, and don't feel a need for affirmations to bolster my mental state?

See the problem with religious thinking? It assumes it has the truth, and that non-believers are deficient and/or wrong. `

Condescending is part of the 'us versus them' attitude. There are only two groups here ... Baha'i and non-Baha'i. Some unity that is.

Just consider, It was F1fan that inserted themselves into a reply I offer to another victim of chidhood abuse.

I will say no more, but to offer, go back to the start and self reflect as to why you both joined in.

Regards Tony

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Interesting. I was never deeply integrated into any religion, even as a kid. My sister was totally engrossed and I could not see what the hell was so awesome about what she was going though. Even as a kid I was skeptical and asking questions, and the answers I got were not satisfactory, so I was even more suspicious.

I grew up in a Christian home and was indoctrinated into Christianity at a young age. Both of my adoptive parents are Christians, and they were Christians during the years I suffered abuse and neglect at home from my adopted mother and adopted older brother. I became a Christian myself when I was 17 years old, and I remained a devout Christian until I was 47 years old. I renounced my faith and belief in God a year and a half ago, and I gradually began to detox from the Christian indoctrination that I had been subjected to in my life. It was a slow and painful process, but my mental health and emotional well-being have significantly improved since then.

IOddly, the response i got to the bit you quoted by a Bahai was that he hoped I can experience the meaning from the affirmation as he did. It is an arrogant thing to say. He doesn't acknowledge I have no hole in my life that I need to plug with religious jargon. In essence it is a condemnation, that I am wrong and that I need to have some sort of breakdown, and have emptiness, so I can seek answers in a religion. The thing is I've never needed answers from religion, even though I have been exposed to them my whole life.

I have encountered this kind of self-righteous attitude from some Christians who were rather put out with me for renouncing my faith and belief in God, and when wooing me back into the fold didn't work the way they planned, then they would often resort to the usual guilt-tripping, shaming, and fearmongering tactics that I'm familiar with as an ex-Christian. I was treated as if I'm inferior to them now.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Just consider, It was you that inserted yourself into a reply I offer to another victim of chidhood abuse.

I will say no more, but to offer, go back to the start and self reflect as to why you joined in.

Regards Tony

If you're referring to me, then please note I am not a victim of childhood abuse anymore. I am a survivor of childhood abuse.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you're referring to me, then please note I am not a victim of childhood abuse anymore. I am a survivor of childhood abuse.

As is my wife. All the best.

Regards Tony

 

[F1fan]

The problem, of course, is that "the stated will of the diety" is never actually stated by the deity, but rather by some human person making representations claiming to know what that will is. But the reasons given in such representations never do amount to anything like "evidence" that can be truly examinded and tested. Once again, it just falls back on a willingness to accept or believe. This, the skeptic can never do.

It is the epitome of what faith means: a lack of evidence, and a presumption that writings and doctrine is true and unquestioned. That is the antithesis of reason, and the cherished "free will". "Free will" and reason would by definition and function negate any use for faith. Not only is faith unreliable and useless as an option, it should be avoided.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Siyyid Yahya-i-Darabi (Vahid) – Bahai Chronicles

Well, Vahid met Bab and was so impressed that he became a Babi and was later killed. So what is so strange in the story? One Shi Muslim impresses another, all never questioning the existence of Allah and soul, all who had no knowledge of science of their day, and because of their religion, believing in messengers from Allah and Imams in 19th Century. That does not mean that someone in 21st Century who has studied science should also believe so. In all, a silly story, with nothing about the questions that were asked and the answers that were given. Only the most credulous will believe in such a story.

Credulous: willing to believe or trust too readily, especially without proper or adequate evidence; gullible.

 

[dybmh]

I do not believe that God has opinions, because an opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge. Since God is all-knowing God knows everything so God has knowledge about everything, not opinions.

I believe the Laws reveal the Will of God, and are based upon the knowledge and wisdom of God.

Attitudes are what people have. God is not a person so God does not have an attitude.

attitude: a settled way of thinking or feeling about someone or something, typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+is+an+attitude

They are based upon what I believe about the nature of God and God's attributes, they are not assertions.
I believe that only humans have opinions and attitudes, and since humans are not all-knowing their opinions and attitudes vary from person to person.

I do not think that God has opinions or attitudes. Since God already knows the truth about everything by virtue of being all-knowing and all-wise, God does not need to form an opinion, and since God is not a person God does not have an attitude.

Anyway, that is how I see it.

You convinced me about opinions. Thank you. I'm not sure about attitude, though. The def you provided said "typically one that is reflected in a person's behavior." Typically. Not always reflected in a "person's" behavior. I propose that if someone is known as jealous, that's their attitude.

Exodus 34:14 For you must not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Therfore, God has an attitude

 

[F1fan]

Just consider, It was F1fan that inserted themselves into a reply I offer to another victim of chidhood abuse.

First, there is only one of me. Second, this is an open forum where members can respond to any comment.

I will say no more, but to offer, go back to the start and self reflect as to why you both joined in.

That's pretty self-righteous. Ironic that you claim to have some sort of religious truth that others don't get, yet you are quite accusatory that others self-reflect.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

If you're referring to me, then please note I am not a victim of childhood abuse anymore. I am a survivor of childhood abuse.

As am I, @Sgt. Pepper, and not only a survivor, but a healthy and happy one. It can be done.

I don't know how you managed it. In my case, it was the realization that my abusers had probably as little real control of their behaviours as I did -- and that allowed me to forgive. I know that forgiveness is the very best way to free myself.

Plus, I admit, I had good people to help me. The Children's Aid, a Quaker-run boys private boarding school, a Protestant Minister who helped me more than I deserved, and a lot of good people who were there when I needed them. I didn't die, although my step-father tried twice before I was 7. And all those other people in my life helped to make me whole. But I would not be whole if I had also not wanted to be.

As bad as my early life was, I see myself today as someone with a lot to be grateful for. I hope you do, too.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, Vahid met Bab and was so impressed that he became a Babi and was later killed. So what is so strange in the story?

The Bab was not educated in religion. The most learned divine in Persia could not match the knowledge.

I offer, read the proof given as to why Vahid did become a Babi. Did you note the Bab replied to an unasked question in a 2000 verse reply, with no pause.

It took 3 days to be transcribed and all the references checked and found accurate, by the most learned cleric. The Bab was a merchant.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

If a society bereft of morals, most people won't get on board with the Baha'i standards of sexual behavior for a very long time but when they do it will be by their own choice.

The LGBTQ will do their thing because that is innate in their nature. Do they harm you in doing so? Why should you term them as immoral and consider yourself as 'holier than thou'? You have your standard of morality based on 1st or 7th Century beliefs. The way society looks at LGBTQ has changed in the meantime.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

First, there is only one of me. Second, this is an open forum where members can respond to any comment.

You need to add, to take it out of the context it was offered in and make it something it was not.

It was offered only as an example that two people suffering the same injustice in life came to two different conclusions about Faith.

But sure, I have broad shoulders, it was me your honour, let the other innocent parties go free.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The LGBTQ will do their thing because that is innate in their nature. Do they harm you in doing so? Why should you term them as immoral and consider yourself as 'holier than thou'? You have your standard of morality based on 1st or 7th Century beliefs. The way society looks at LGBTQ has changed in the meantime.

I have thoughts as to what that is so, which I see is beginning to be reflected in studies. I will not offer them here though.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As am I, @Sgt. Pepper, and not only a survivor, but a healthy and happy one. It can be done.

I don't know how you managed it. In my case, it was the realization that my abusers had probably as little real control of their behaviours as I did -- and that allowed me to forgive. I know that forgiveness is the very best way to free myself.

Plus, I admit, I had good people to help me. The Children's Aid, a Quaker-run boys private boarding school, a Protestant Minister who helped me more than I deserved, and a lot of good people who were there when I needed them. I didn't die, although my step-father tried twice before I was 7. And all those other people in my life helped to make me whole. But I would not be whole if I had also not wanted to be.

As bad as my early life was, I see myself today as someone with a lot to be grateful for. I hope you do, too.

Good on you, well done.

My wife will never get over her experiences, but she has learnt coping mechanisms.

Regards Tony