Judaism and Supplemental Material

[Swede01]

Is there any reform jew in this forum who want to talk about it in this forum? Idk anyone and I have some restrictions that I mentioned before

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Is there any reform jew in this forum who want to talk about it in this forum? Idk anyone and I have some restrictions that I mentioned before

Maybe start a seperate thread directed to them with this topic.

 

[David Davidovich]

A woman suspected of adultery, having been warned, can be (if she maintains innocence) put through a ritual which will, by dint of divine power, reveal her guilt or innocence. If she is guilty, she suffers from some sort of physical punishment. If she is innocent, she doesn't receive that punishment. What exactly is your question.

Well, it's related to my concerns that were stated in post #136 where I was curious as why this ritual resembled a pagan ritual and why there's even such a strange ritual like that in the Torah to begin with. Also, at the time, I think that @Ehav4Ever only gave me a brief answer, which amounted to it being better understood in the original Hebrew language, however, I'm about to read what he said in his more recent post in post #218.

 

[David Davidovich]

This one is a bit complicated because it requires a good knowledge of both the witten Torah and the oral Torah. Also, the words used in English - often require a Torath Mosheh Jew to give you a good amount of commentary on what they mean. For example, the English word "adultry" doesn't mean exactly what the Hebrew words mean for this particular area. (Green brackets)

View attachment 64787

At the moment I will give the short version. At a later time I will break it down based ont he Hebrew.

The only way such a process can even be enacted is if it is proven without a shadow of a doubt that Hashem is supporting the Israeli Torah based nation. If this is not established 100% w/o question the process cannot be performed.

1. The Rambam explains in the Mishnah Torah Hilchoth Sotah that this is a situation where a Torah based Jewish man has warned/advised his wife not to be alone/including hiding it with a particular man. In Hebrew we call this, (התיחדות).
   • One side of it is that in Torah based Jewish culture a man being alone with a married woman/vice versa is avoided due to the problems such contact can cause.
   • The second side of it is that the man in question is "concerned" about the well being of his wife, from a Torah based perspective, of being concerned. Meaning, his reasoning is for the sake of knowing that the type of contact is forbidden and will destructive to his wife. His concern has to be for reasons that are pure and without question if analayzed by the Torah based Jewish community. Red brackets.
   • Last, it is forbidden for said man to "warn" his wife using harsh language, violence, or out of jealousy. (Note the Hebrew word used does not translate exactly into the jeolousy that is common in English.) Green Brackets below.

View attachment 64786

1. The only way for the process, mentioned in the written Torah, to take place is if
   • The husband in question informed his wife of his concerns privately first to try and convince her of his concerns.
   • The husband in question, after his wife continued contact with said man, has had her husband's concerns brought up in front of Torah based witnesses.
   • There are two or more witnesses to her meeting privately with said man she was warned about,
   • The wife in question denies the contact and agrees to do the process. She can say no at any point. If she is being pressured then the whole thing is thrown out.

In order to understand this concept you have to understand that the issue at hand is with the Ketuba, the marriage agreement. She can refuse the process and her and husband can divorce with the terms of the marriage contract being annulled.

In a situation where this process cannot be done or won't be done then the two divorce with the marraige contract being annulled, again only if there are witnesses to the fact that said act even took place.

I see. However, what I'm wondering is: Why would a guilty woman actually agree to such a ritual? Because that doesn't make sense to me. Also, have there been any guilty women during the time of ancient Israel who decided to undergo this ritual? Plus, what exactly is the substance or physical matter (if there really is any) that is supposed to have fallen from her body if she is guilty?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, it's related to my concerns that were stated in post #136 where I was curious as why this ritual resembled a pagan ritual.

Just an additional note. What you have to understand about Torah and Hebrew is that how the term "pagan" is understand in the Western world is different than what meant in the Torath Mosheh Jewish world.

With Torath Mosheh Jews what is called Avodah Zara, has two main elements to it.

1. To not place something that was created in place of, as an associate to, or as an intermediary ot the Source of creation Hashem.
   • Each of these breaks down into numerous details about what that means but if you watch the videos I sent you about what Avodah Zara is it will make it better understood.
2. Torath Mosheh Jews are forbidden from taking on the practices of the nations. In Hebrew this is prohibition is called (חוקת הגויים) "Huqath HaGoyyim" or Statutes of the Nations.
   • What this means is that for Torath Mosheh Jews received the Torah from Hashem. Every mitzvah from Hashem is the basis for what we do. Since Hashem is the Source of reality this would mean that all mitzvoth Hashem gave predate humanity in their possibility to exit.
   • Practices that are "special" to Avodah Zara of various nations and specific to the way they do Avodah Zara are forbidden to Torath Mosheh Jews.
   • When Hashem gave the mitzvoth of the Torah he gave them with a clear understanding of what is a natural part of human reality and cultural development. Thus, there are some mitzvoth of the Torah that are based on things that naturally develop in human societies BUT Hashem in the Torah gave them a proper Torah based purpose.
   • What this means is that things of course, because we are all human and we all come from the same source, we all of various cultral developments that are similar. That being said, we Jews are required to base on cultural developments from the Torah and not to do them the way the nations do them - unless a) there is no Torah based prohibition and b) the development did not originate in Avodah Zara.
   • For example, using a fork is not something that developed first among those who do Avodah Zara (or as you might use in English paganism). The use of forks apparently either predate Avodah Zara or were were invented without any connection Avodah Zara. YET, if a particular practice of using a fork for Avodah Zara develops or if a particular type of fork is used for Avodah Zara then Torath Mosheh Jews must not use that specific fork, unless is unique use is removed from the situation, or not use forks the ways that those who do Avodah Zara do it.

What you have to remember is that much of what you may have learned about what "paganism" is most likely came from the modern Western world views/Christian influenced view and not from Jewish ones. I will give an example, according to ancient Torath Mosheh sources, various types of Western humanism could be considered a type of paganism even if it not connected to the Western concept of a god.

 

[David Davidovich]

Just an additional note. What you have to understand about Torah and Hebrew is that how the term "pagan" is understand in the Western world is different than what meant in the Torath Mosheh Jewish world.

With Torath Mosheh Jews what is called Avodah Zara, has two main elements to it.

1. To not place something that was created in place of, as an associate to, or as an intermediary ot the Source of creation Hashem.
   • Each of these breaks down into numerous details about what that means but if you watch the videos I sent you about what Avodah Zara is it will make it better understood.
2. Torath Mosheh Jews are forbidden from taking on the practices of the nations. In Hebrew this is prohibition is called (חוקת הגויים) "Huqath HaGoyyim" or Statutes of the Nations.
   • What this means is that for Torath Mosheh Jews received the Torah from Hashem. Every mitzvah from Hashem is the basis for what we do. Since Hashem is the Source of reality this would mean that all mitzvoth Hashem gave predate humanity in their possibility to exit.
   • Practices that are "special" to Avodah Zara of various nations and specific to the way they do Avodah Zara are forbidden to Torath Mosheh Jews.
   • When Hashem gave the mitzvoth of the Torah he gave them with a clear understanding of what is a natural part of human reality and cultural development. Thus, there are some mitzvoth of the Torah that are based on things that naturally develop in human societies BUT Hashem in the Torah gave them a proper Torah based purpose.
   • What this means is that things of course, because we are all human and we all come from the same source, we all of various cultral developments that are similar. That being said, we Jews are required to base on cultural developments from the Torah and not to do them the way the nations do them - unless a) there is no Torah based prohibition and b) the development did not originate in Avodah Zara.
   • For example, using a fork is not something that developed first among those who do Avodah Zara (or as you might use in English paganism). The use of forks apparently either predate Avodah Zara or were were invented without any connection Avodah Zara. YET, if a particular practice of using a fork for Avodah Zara develops or if a particular type of fork is used for Avodah Zara then Torath Mosheh Jews must not use that specific fork, unless is unique use is removed from the situation, or not use forks the ways that those who do Avodah Zara do it.

What you have to remember is that much of what you may have learned about what "paganism" is most likely came from the modern Western world views/Christian influenced view and not from Jewish ones. I will give an example, according to ancient Torath Mosheh sources, various types of Western humanism could be considered a type of paganism even if it not connected to the Western concept of a god.

I see. So, is there a reason for a woman accused of adultery to go through such a bizarre ritual with drinking water mixed with the ink run-off from a scroll that has curses written on it? And do Torath Mosheh Jews still practice this? Also, what is the substance or material that is supposed to run down or off her leg if she is actually guilty? Plus, why would a guilty woman even go through that procedure if she knows that she is guilty? Because those verses, in just reading over them, makes more sense that a guilty woman who is accused of adultery would be forced to drink the water, even though, you had said that it was voluntary, which to me doesn't make sense.

 

[David Davidovich]

Further to this point, if one looks at the world in modern times - one can posit that basically what the Rambam stated on these matters appears to be the truth. (26:51 - 29:04) The Rambam wrote on these topics in other works of his and again, with the current level of scientic advancement it appears that he was right in his assessment.

Above is a quote from post #24, therefore, I would like to ask: Who or what is the prince of the Persian Kingdom/the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece at Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 10:20, respectively, according to the Torath Mosheh Jewish viewpoint?

וְשַׂ֣ר ׀ מַלְכ֣וּת פָּרַ֗ס עֹמֵ֤ד לְנֶגְדִּי֙ עֶשְׂרִ֣ים וְאֶחָ֣ד י֔וֹם וְהִנֵּ֣ה מִֽיכָאֵ֗ל אַחַ֛ד הַשָּׂרִ֥ים הָרִאשֹׁנִ֖ים בָּ֣א לְעׇזְרֵ֑נִי וַאֲנִי֙ נוֹתַ֣רְתִּי שָׁ֔ם אֵ֖צֶל מַלְכֵ֥י פָרָֽס׃ However, the prince of the Persian kingdom opposed me for twenty-one days; now Michael, a prince of the first rank, has come to my aid, after I was detained there with the kings of Persia.

וַיֹּ֗אמֶר הֲיָדַ֙עְתָּ֙ לָמָּה־בָּ֣אתִי אֵלֶ֔יךָ וְעַתָּ֣ה אָשׁ֔וּב לְהִלָּחֵ֖ם עִם־שַׂ֣ר פָּרָ֑ס וַאֲנִ֣י יוֹצֵ֔א וְהִנֵּ֥ה שַׂר־יָוָ֖ן בָּֽא׃ Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must go back to fight the prince of Persia. When I go off, the prince of Greece will come in.

click here: Daniel 10:13 with Connections (sefaria.org)

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I see. So, is there a reason for a woman accused of adultery to go through such a bizarre ritual?

Yeah, sure. Human nature. The entire text of the Torah is there not simply explain history or give a bunch of rules. It is there so that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn lessons from every letter, every word, every sentence, or every statement structure, etc.

For example, it shows how far someone has gone in their relationship if they are willing to go all the way to Jerusalem to the Temple to even do such a thing. It also satifies some basic human needs in these kinds of extremes. Yet, be aware. This actually be performed was very rare. So rare that I don't "personally" know of any history of it having been done. Again, the woman would first have to agree to even do it. Most woman would rather do away with the marriage contract. Also, most Jewish men aren't will to go that far since the process to even get to the Temple was a long one.

And do Torath Mosheh Jews still practice this?

No. This could only be done under the following conditions.

1. That there is a proven situation where Hashem is 100% shown to be supporting the Torah based nation.
2. A Torah based nation exits in the land of Israel. Government all the way down.

During the 2nd Temple period this was not performed. If the conditions that would lead to it were taking place the Mosaic court would simply divorce the couple.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Plus, why would a guilty woman even go through that procedure if she knows that she is guilty?

Probably very rare but maybe for the same way that someone who goes to court, is 100% guilty, and still goes through the motions even though they know their guilt is proven. Maybe also for the same reason that some children deny they did something with so much overwhelming evidence that they did it. In the end the reason it is in the Torah is to make this apparent to all Torath Mosheh Jews. I.e. by learning about such a process it makes us look at things in our lives to see if there are things that should be just obvious as what you are asking.

Good question. Now you are thinking like a Torath Mosheh Jew.

Because those verses, in just reading over them, makes more sense that a guilty woman who is accused of adultery would be forced to drink the water, even though, you had said that it was voluntary, which to me doesn't make sense.

For the sake of time, the following link provides the Rambam's description of how the "entire" process was to be done.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/960637/jewish/Sotah.htm

Please be aware that this is an attempt of translating from the Hebrew of what the Rambam actually wrote. I can't vouch for all of the translation choices.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑
I see. So, is there a reason for a woman accused of adultery to go through such a bizarre ritual?

Yeah, sure. Human nature. The entire text of the Torah is there not simply explain history or give a bunch of rules. It is there so that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn lessons from every letter, every word, every sentence, or every statement structure, etc.

For example, it shows how far someone has gone in their relationship if they are willing to go all the way to Jerusalem to the Temple to even do such a thing. It also satifies some basic human needs in these kinds of extremes. Yet, be aware. This actually be performed was very rare. So rare that I don't "personally" know of any history of it having been done. Again, the woman would first have to agree to even do it. Most woman would rather do away with the marriage contract. Also, most Jewish men aren't will to go that far since the process to even get to the Temple was a long one.

I don't think that answered my question. Because I really don't see the lesson or lessons that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn from this edict of drinking water with ink run-offs from the curses that were written on the scroll. Also, what you said about how going all the way to the Temple to do this shows how far someone has gone in their relationship doesn't really register with me. Plus, it doesn't register with me as to why this law was written in the Torah, even though, it was rarely used, if used at all. Also, according to the Torah narratives, the people of ancient Israel committed many sins, therefore, it's hard for me to image that none of the ancient Israelites committed the sin of adultery and were not punished for it in the way that Hashem punished the ancient Israelites over and over again for their sins throughout ancient Jewish history.

David Davidovich said: ↑
And do Torath Mosheh Jews still practice this?

No. This could only be done under the following conditions.

1. That there is a proven situation where Hashem is 100% shown to be supporting the Torah based nation.
2. A Torah based nation exits in the land of Israel. Government all the way down.

During the 2nd Temple period this was not performed. If the conditions that would lead to it were taking place the Mosaic court would simply divorce the couple.

Well, that makes me think then: Well, why were these ancient and unusual and strict laws even put in the Torah in the first place?

 

[David Davidovich]

Above is a quote from post #24, therefore, I would like to ask: Who or what is the prince of the Persian Kingdom/the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece at Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 10:20, respectively, according to the Torath Mosheh Jewish viewpoint?





click here: Daniel 10:13 with Connections (sefaria.org)

Bump for post #227 about the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece. For @Ehav4Ever or anyone who is Jewish.

 

[David Davidovich]

Also, what is the substance or material that is supposed to run down or off her leg if she is actually guilty?

Bump!

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Bump for post #227 about the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece. For @Ehav4Ever or anyone who is Jewish.

I think this deserves its own thread, BUT I suggest you write "For Torath Mosheh Jews only." Otherwise you will get a lot of non-Torah based responses.

 

[rosends]

I don't think that answered my question. Because I really don't see the lesson or lessons that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn from this edict of drinking water with ink run-offs from the curses that were written on the scroll.

Then don't think of it as a "lesson." Think of it as a law on the books which deals with a societal problem. The Torah is, among other things, a law book and, if you were to look at the law book of any nation, you would find a variety of laws including some very detailed ones for how to deal with all sorts of difficult situations.

Also, what you said about how going all the way to the Temple to do this shows how far someone has gone in their relationship doesn't really register with me. Plus, it doesn't register with me as to why this law was written in the Torah, even though, it was rarely used, if used at all.

It registers with me. Maybe that's because it is part of a complex religious schema and as a piece in a bigger puzzle, it fits. But if you are looking from the outside, all you see is the piece and the big picture remains unseen. There are laws that were rarely used, some that were used often, some that were only for a portion of the community and some just for individuals. A comprehensive legal system has all these aspects.

Well, that makes me think then: Well, why were these ancient and unusual and strict laws even put in the Torah in the first place?

Because life works best when there is a communal code of behavior established.

 

[rosends]

Bump for post #227 about the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece. For @Ehav4Ever or anyone who is Jewish.

The standard understanding of 10:13 is that it isn't speaking of a specific human but of the representative divine identity of Rome which beseeches God to be given time as a ruling power. Each nation has a representative and each wants its human counterpart to be in charge. So while it could be placed in an historical context (Rashi makes reference to Alexander and Antiochus) the point is that this is speaking about nations as epitomized by their heavenly equivalents.

 

[rosends]

Bump!

referring to "what is the substance or material that is supposed to run down or off her leg if she is actually guilty"

The Chizkuni, a 13th century commentator looked at the language of "your thigh will sag and your belly distend" and understood it to mean


“you are no longer capable of engaging in carnal relations as the waters will damage the organs designed for this. Your womb will be ruined.”

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I don't think that answered my question. Because I really don't see the lesson or lessons that Torath Mosheh Jews can learn from this edict of drinking water with ink run-offs from the curses that were written on the scroll.

Because, what you described is not the lesson. The entire process for dealing with such a claim is the lesson. Again, you have to remember that the process is a lot longer than what you have read in the English translations. The Hebrew text of the written Torah is like cliff notes and the Oral Torah is the longer version.

We Torath Mosheh Jews see the point of it, in our culture, because we know that the entire process is not about the details about how the last phase of the process takes place. Yet, what you have described is the last part of longer process. Literally, the actual steps of the process that involve what happens in the Temple are the ending of a process that is not required to even happen in the end. It is to satify both sides if their relationship has gotten to the point where they are willing to do such a thing.

We Torath Mosheh, historically, have learned a lot from such things. Yet, we have the full story of what the process intels in practice.

Also, what you said about how going all the way to the Temple to do this shows how far someone has gone in their relationship doesn't really register with me.

Of course not. If you and your significant other were having a problem in your relationship and all the rational methods to resolve cause no resolution and someone said to you to go all the way to the Supreme Court in Washington D.C. to resolve it what would be the normal reaction of most people? Also, if a couple is in a broken relationship and someone said that to resolve it one of them had to dress up like a clown and walk around downtown how singing how many people would say yes to that rather than admit the relationship has gone off the rails?

Plus, it doesn't register with me as to why this law was written in the Torah, even though, it was rarely used, if used at all.

Again, there are reasons culturally specific to Torath Mosheh Jews that are part of what we study that makes it all relevant to us. I can understand that it would not be culturally significant to someone who is not a Torath Mosheh Jew.

Also, according to the Torah narratives, the people of ancient Israel committed many sins, therefore, it's hard for me to image that none of the ancient Israelites committed the sin of adultery and were not punished for it in the way that Hashem punished the ancient Israelites over and over again for their sins throughout ancient Jewish history.

The challenge you have is that you seemed to have missed the process that has to take place for this particular series of actions to have taken place. They are very specific and are not for the sake of "adultry" as you know it in English. I.e. this process is ONLY in the circumstance that a husband has warned his wife to not be alone with a a particular man. I.e. he wasn't there to see that she was. Further, he must only be doing this because he is concerned for her safety (on all levels). Further, he needs witnesses who say her being alone with said person. Also, she would have had to be warned. Further, the woman would have to agree to take part in such a process. Lastly, you have to have a situation where all involved parties want to go through all of that rather than just get divorced. Most Jews haven't desired to go through all of that rather than just get divorced.

There is a lot to be learned from a situation where someone is willing to go through all of these extremes - husband or wife. What kind of Torath Mosheh Israeli wants to be alone with some man who is not her husband? What kind of Torath Mosheh Israeli based husband would want to put his wife through such a public process? The only way for this process to even be performed is when it is 100% proven that Hashem is supporting the Torah based nation. What kind of person, who knows that Hashem is 100% real and 100% supporting the Torah based nation would choose to willingly go to such extremes? What kind of Torath Mosheh Israeli marries a woman that he has to suspect is meeting with someone many privately? What kind of Torath Mosheh Israeli woman marries a man who she has to convince that she did no such thing? What kind of society have Torath Mosheh Israelis of a particular generation built where this type of process is needed?

These are all lessons and questions for a Torath Mosheh society and we are gratefull to Hashem for giving us a Torah that addresses who are as humans, even when we are not at our best. Individually and collectively.

Well, that makes me think then: Well, why were these ancient and unusual and strict laws even put in the Torah in the first place?

Addressed earlier. We Torath Mosheh Jews, as a part of our culture, investigate these matters. Settle them, argue about them, go over them again, start all over again with then, argue about them, settle them, and repeat the process our entire lives.

 

[David Davidovich]

I think this deserves its own thread, BUT I suggest you write "For Torath Mosheh Jews only." Otherwise you will get a lot of non-Torah based responses.

Will do.

 

[David Davidovich]

Then don't think of it as a "lesson." Think of it as a law on the books which deals with a societal problem. The Torah is, among other things, a law book and, if you were to look at the law book of any nation, you would find a variety of laws including some very detailed ones for how to deal with all sorts of difficult situations.

It registers with me. Maybe that's because it is part of a complex religious schema and as a piece in a bigger puzzle, it fits. But if you are looking from the outside, all you see is the piece and the big picture remains unseen. There are laws that were rarely used, some that were used often, some that were only for a portion of the community and some just for individuals. A comprehensive legal system has all these aspects.

Because life works best when there is a communal code of behavior established.

Okay, thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

The standard understanding of 10:13 is that it isn't speaking of a specific human but of the representative divine identity of Rome which beseeches God to be given time as a ruling power. Each nation has a representative and each wants its human counterpart to be in charge. So while it could be placed in an historical context (Rashi makes reference to Alexander and Antiochus) the point is that this is speaking about nations as epitomized by their heavenly equivalents.

So, what is a representative divine identity or the nations' heavenly equivalents? And I may not start a separate thread on this depending on your answer.