There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

[Sheldon]

It’s nice to have 2 students in my Bible class, that’s how this is for me so keep asking questions.
See how prayer works now, you would be a great
person of prayer, see how you keep asking for an answer to your request? Relentless in prayer you would be!
Reminds me of Luke 11
I explained the difference but seems you don’t get it, are you talking to yourself on here or a person? God always has something instead when you get a no. With an idol there is no relationship or back and forth just silence.

What's with the redundant line breaks? I've noticed a lot of theists do this, it's very annoying.

 

[Sheldon]

I explained the difference but seems you don’t get it

You did no such thing, you simply reasserted there was a difference, but please cite the post you claim explained it then.

 

[Sheldon]

God always has something instead when you get a no.

Is this your explanation? Oh dear, you really don't understand the question then, as this is just a repetition of your original claim. You were asked to explain the objective difference between a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it?

We already know you hold a subjective believe there is a difference. This is a very simple question, how is it so difficult for to understand, or are you simply obfuscating as you know you have no objective explanation?

 

[Sheldon]

Idiocy because you don’t understand my answer

Nope, idiocy because it was a particularly dioic assertion. Since you claimed plenty of children are fatherless, in response to my assertion it is a biological impossibility to not have a father.

However we can all see this attention to the minutiae of your howler here is to avoid the question again in that post.

What's the objective difference between a prayer not being answered, and no deity existing to answer it? All the jibes and obfuscation suggest you have no credible answer, and that you know it.

 

[Sheldon]

Both is like this:

Sorry this is a debate forum, can you explain in your own words please. Only it would really help @ElishaElijah out, as he doesn't seem to have an objective explanation.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Then why is God silent?

He isn’t

Really? How do you know?

 

[Sheldon]

No, it's not like that. My dad actually said "No. " or "Wait." And when I asked: "Where are you?" he said: "I am here." This is not the same as just ignoring me with no feedback.

Ok, so that is what was originally claimed. Now can anyone explain the objective difference between a prayer not being answered by an extant deity, and no deity existing to answer it?

 

[PearlSeeker]

Sorry this is a debate forum, can you explain in your own words please. Only it would really help @ElishaElijah out, as he doesn't seem to have an objective explanation.

OK. Both is like talking to the wind - no reply.

 

[Sheldon]

God may say no to one thing and give you something else instead.

So can you explain the objective difference between a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it?

 

[Sheldon]

OK. Both is like talking to the wind - no reply.

I see, but that suggests there is no discernible difference, which was not what @ElishaElijah had earlier claimed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes part of praying is thanking God for answering prayers, thanking Him for all He has done but not sure where you got the idea that you wouldn’t ask God to do the humanly impossible things that’s a foreign idea to me, especially when He is the only one who can do those things, whatever they may be at the time.

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post: I took you complaining about people treating God like a "vending machine" to be about people asking God to do things for them.

What did you mean, then?

 

[ElishaElijah]

Sorry if I misinterpreted your post: I took you complaining about people treating God like a "vending machine" to be about people asking God to do things for them.

What did you mean, then?

Look at this outline for prayer
“So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, For we also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭11:2-4‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Prayer is a relationship with God our Father, many people believe prayer to be just going to God and asking for things but as you can see it’s much more than that.

As far as requests
“Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Paul prayed 3 times to be healed and God told him His grace was sufficient that His strength was made perfect in our weakness. Also, Paul was put in life and death situations so they wouldn’t trust themselves but God who delivered them from those situations. Paraphrased

 

[ElishaElijah]

So can you explain the objective difference between a deity not answering a prayer, and no deity existing to answer it?

God may say no to your specific request and yes to something else instead or give you more grace.
So yes you’re reaching, misrepresenting a “no” answer to a request, God will tell you, or show you why. Much different than talking to the wind.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God may say no to your specific request and yes to something else instead or give you more grace.
So yes you’re reaching, misrepresenting a “no” answer to a request, God will tell you, or show you why. Much different than talking to the wind.

How is it different? How could someone distinguish between God "saying no" and no God being there at all?

You say that God "tells you" - are you talking about some sort of overt communication, or are you just talking about an inference from God's inaction?

 

[ElishaElijah]

How is it different? How could someone distinguish between God "saying no" and no God being there at all?

You say that God "tells you" - are you talking about some sort of overt communication, or are you just talking about an inference from God's inaction?

God speaks Spirit to Spirit, also confirms with
his Word or other believers. I will be reading the Bible and the verse will come alive, something I have read a bunch of times will speak to me for a certain situation and you just know, it’s a living word not just words on a page.
You know when I don’t hear anything at all? When I don’t pray.
What I’m hearing from people on here is they are prayer less and faithless, these aren’t good attributes.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Don’t know what you’re talking about or why you addressed your comment to me really. What God has done in my life has so far surpassed anything I could’ve hoped for or imagined for myself. Anything more is just icing on the cake.

Granted the bar I set was pretty low when I was living “ the dream”, doing what I want partying, drinking, drugs, sex. Let’s see what I’m missing out on: sexual disease, in and out of relationships every 3 months, bankrupt, guilty conscience, nights over the toilet, looking for more drugs at all hours of the night, smoking lint on the carpet, my head over the stove trying to get that last hit off the crack pipe, crashed cars, stealing, lying cheating. Oh the fun! My goal was a truck with a wave runner so I could go to the lake and ride that thing.
So to say morally superior is pretty funny, I was morally bankrupt and miserable and that’s why I called out to God, He is morally superior and saved me to the uttermost, gave me a life I thought was impossible. This was all His doing and yes I had to do and still do my part, but He did all the deliverance, miraculous healing and providing.

Congratulations on cleaning yourself up. That is not easy. You should give yourself far more credit for doing it yourself.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again I don’t have a problem with moral issues, I know what is and what isn’t moral and decent now and thanks to God I have the ability to do what’s right.
On the other hand you do not have that ability, how can you say I think I’m morally superior yet you determine your own morals? Unless you know in your conscience what’s right or wrong, moral or immoral yet justify and harden your heart to the truth that you know or once knew.

You determine your own morals too. You just attribute them to god(s).

 

[ElishaElijah]

Congratulations on cleaning yourself up. That is not easy. You should give yourself far more credit for doing it yourself.

Thanks! There was plenty I had to do and still do, mainly I had to show up and not quit, but without God delivering me like He did I wouldn’t have been able to walk at all or even know He was there for sure. The first thing He had me do was make my bed everyday, this didn’t come from me, believe me. He didn’t make it for me.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You don’t even seem to know what the definition of a Christian is according to the Bible, do you? I gave it to you, you still don’t.

Why would he care? Like me, he doesn't consider scripture authoritative or an adequate resource. I am amazed at your lack of what can be called cognitive empathy, which is analogous to affective empathy, or a sense of what the other guy is feeling, but here refers to a sense of what the other guy is thinking. You seem to lack that. Your writing never reflects that you hold the concept that others have different minds and different worldviews. It seems to shock you that they don't go to your Bible for answers, even when they tell you repeatedly that they don't believe what you believe about it.

Imagining what exactly? That I was free from my addictions in five minutes and other things God speaks to me.

Yes. This is something you could have gleaned yourself with cognitive empathy were that ability in your toolbox. Of course that's what he thinks, and what I think - you imagine that a god healed your addictions, you imagine that it occurred instantaneously, and that you imagine that a god speaks to you. What else is possible for them to think given that they have minds of their own that evaluate evidence differently from you?

A lot of people are baptized and not saved, I was and then I actually got saved and was born again, there’s a big difference.

Not to the unbeliever. It's all just faith-based belief. You may believe that baptism matters beyond psychologically, but the skeptic doesn't. You may believe that there was some kind of transformation beyond psychological in you that you call saved and born again, but the skeptic doesn't believe that. Why do you never seem to learn that?

The point is some people believe they had a relationship with God and may not have had one at all

We know. It's actually more than some. It's all of them, although some have come to understand that as I have. It was my realization that what I was calling a relationship with God was a relationship with my own mind that allowed me to abandon faith and return to empiricism.

Because their experience of being born again isn’t Scriptural but talking about that with you is fruitless

There you go again. What fruit were you expecting? To be believed without any evidence beyond your testimony of what you experienced and what you thought that meant? You keep offering your theology to people who have rejected it. It really doesn't matter to anybody else what you believe about scripture, and this continues to amaze and frustrate you.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

seems you’re arguing with yourself or an imaginary person.

I've noticed that, too. It feels just like that sometimes.

Prayer doesn’t have healing power, go pray all day to that rock if you want, or that statue. It’s God that heals, prayer is how I communicate with God.

I think even people who know nothing about Christianity understand that that is how the believer thinks things work. What is being claimed by the skeptic is not that believers believe that prayer has direct power over the world, but that it is a request for a deity to modify reality for them. What the skeptic says is that there is insufficient evidence that either of these occur to believe that they do. It's actually been studied scientifically. Prayer had no beneficial effect over no prayer for the post-operative outcomes of people undergoing cardiac procedures.

I’m still wondering why you’re on this thread, you have no clue about what the Bible says about prayer, what it means to be believer, who is a legitimate believer and who isn’t and how to test for this.

Maybe his reason for being on this thread isn't to learn what you think the Bible says about prayer, or what you think it means to be a "legitimate" believer. Have you considered that? If so, his reason must be something else. But you'd need a little cognitive empathy to discern his motives. You'd need to have a glimmer of what he thinks and believes. Then you might have your answer. Or, you could ask him why he's on the thread.

One wonders why you're on the thread. What do you think you're accomplishing here for yourself or others? I can answer that question for myself, but I wonder if you can answer it for yourself. What are you doing?

you demonstrate that you don’t even understand the milk let alone the meat of Scripture.

Your knowledge of scripture has already been revealed to be incorrect. You're not a reliable interpreter of scripture. Others who interpret it open-mindedly, i.e, not through a confirmation bias, are in agreement that you are incorrect, and the matter is settled even if you don't accept that that is so.

I explained how that happens. You make a claim, it is successfully rebutted, you fail to respond with counter-rebuttal, and the point has been resolved until you do rebut what is the last plausible, unrebutted claim.

To you but not to Bible students.

We're all Bible students. Your opinion has no weight except with you.

Does your opinion count? No

Now you're getting it. If only you could see that that works both ways. Your opinions only matter to you, yet you still think they should matter to others even after being told repeatedly that they don't.