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There is no evidence for God, so why do you believe?

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
he makes the laws of nature function.

Your original comment (too many pages to search to find it) was that God was natural. I commented that most other theists disagree with you, that God transcends nature (is supernatural) and the author of nature. Now you've made that into something else, which is standard Christian dogma.

Nature needs no help. The first wave of scientists showed us the clockwork universe, where heavenly bodies move without gods or angels pushing them, gases equilibrated without any intelligent oversight, and electrons moved through circuits unaided. This ushered in the age of deism, where the ruler deity was no longer needed. And the second wave of scientists showed us how the cosmos and the tree of life assembled itself, making the builder god no longer necessary, making atheism tenable.

Wasn't it you that made the fine tuning argument for God that I rebutted by asking why an omnipotent God would be constrained to choose certain settings of the fundamental physical constants? Who created the laws that this God is limited by? How can you call this a God if it could only have created this world one way if it were to support life and mind? If that's the case, this God didn't actually design anything. It merely obeyed rules imposed on it.


I’m confident and positive about what I’ve experienced, that God did deliver me, that He is also empowering me to live a holy life and I will receive eternal life forever with Him in the next. This is something a skeptic does not have, just questions, doubt and hopelessness in the afterlife.

This is a common way for believers to depict the humanist experience, as empty and hopeless because there is no hope of an afterlife and so many unanswered questions. Often added is that the humanist has no basis for morality or spirituality. The humanist accepts that there may be no deity or afterlife, nobody not on this planet that loves him and watches over him, that he may never see deceased loved ones again, nobody watching and judging his behavior, that man is the author of his own morality, that authentic spirituality has nothing to do with spirits, and that many questions are unanswerable except with guesses that have no explanatory or predictive value.

I'm happy for you that you grounded yourself and corrected your life's trajectory with your religious beliefs, but please don't denigrate the experience of those who don't need or benefit from such beliefs. I liken it to needing glasses to read and getting some, then thinking that others who don't need them see less and are worse off than himself. Isn't it better to not need glasses to read, not worse?

there are facts that confirmed the facts of the resurrection

No. One can only believe that account by faith. He has to believe the Bible, which is only believed by faith.

Facts are facts, believe them, deny them or accept them:
Twelve Undeniable Facts that Prove the Resurrection

What's a fact to you? Does it include anything you have chosen to believe by faith? To me, a fact is a sentence or paragraph that demonstrably maps onto reality. If I say that there are apples in the refrigerator (the sentence), and one can open the refrigerator and find apples (the demonstrable mapping of the words onto reality), then the statement is a fact. If your definition allows for things that cannot be shown, then what you call facts aren't considered correct by the empiricist. This is the problem you are having here with your resurrection argument. The things you call facts can't be demonstrated. It is likely that an itinerant preacher and religious reformer called Jesus was crucified, but even that is not firmly established. Here's an excerpt from your link, the second of ten alleged facts:
  • Jesus Was Buried in a Tomb Joseph of Arimathea put Jesus’s body in his new tomb and rolled a large stone across the entrance (Matt. 27:57-61; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:53-54; John 19:39-42). Concerned that someone might steal the body, the Jews requested a guard at the tomb (Matt. 27:64-66). Christ’s body remained there until Sunday morning.
There is nothing in the world that you can show to confirm that this happened, much less the revivification of a man three days dead. These words don't do that. You believe them, but by faith, not demonstrable evidence. What you call facts are not facts to any empiricist or critical thinker.

Just because you don’t accept the Gospels as legitimate doesn’t mean they aren’t. They have stood the test of time and are legitimate.

The only test of time the gospels have passed is their believability to countless people asked to believe them over the centuries. What other test do you think they have passed? Prophetic accuracy? Internal consistency? Historical accuracy? The moral excellence of Jesus?

Regarding that last one, Jesus is regarded by his adherents as a moral genius. I'm still looking for the first contribution to moral theory original to Jesus that is considered a great idea by non-Christians the way that humanist moral contributions like democracy and guaranteed person freedoms have done. You don't need to be a humanist to see the moral superiority of modern life as a citizen over that which dominated the Age of Faith, or the moral superiority of forbidding slavery. What contributions to moral theory did Jesus make analogous to those? Turn the other cheek?
That marriage to a divorcee or ogling an attractive woman is adultery? That you must cut off your hand or pluck out your eye if it offends? "Take therefore no thought for tomorrow"?

Are these some of those excellent moral insights? I believe they're original to Jesus and the Gospels. Have they stood the test of time?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Wasn't it you that made the fine tuning argument for God that I rebutted by asking why an omnipotent God would be constrained to choose certain settings of the fundamental physical constants? Who created the laws that this God is limited by? How can you call this a God if it could only have created this world one way if it were to support life and mind? If that's the case, this God didn't actually design anything. It merely obeyed rules imposed on it.
What a tiny view of God you have. You don't understand who he is at all. He's not constrained by anything but his nature. God created the laws and of course he isn't subject to those laws. Who said he had to create the world in one way?
Where are you coming up with this nonsense?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wasn't it you that made the fine tuning argument for God that I rebutted by asking why an omnipotent God would be constrained to choose certain settings of the fundamental physical constants? Who created the laws that this God is limited by? How can you call this a God if it could only have created this world one way if it were to support life and mind? If that's the case, this God didn't actually design anything. It merely obeyed rules imposed on it.

What a tiny view of God you have. You don't understand who he is at all.

Really? It's a pretty simple concept. And a tiny one at that. God is whatever the believer wants him to be in any given context. No rules apply, anything goes.

It's the theist's view of God and the supernatural that is tiny and overly simplistic. Nothing can exist, think, or act outside of time, even a god. The idea is incoherent. Nothing including a god can be undetectable even in principle, which is only true of the nonexistent, and, at the same time, affect nature. That idea is also incoherent. The laws that keep this deity from dissipating, that keep its thoughts discrete and empower it to effect change, transcend it. To claim otherwise is incoherent.

I notice that once again, you offer no rebuttal, just hand waiving in dissent. There's a good reason for that. There is no valid rebuttal possible to a sound argument.

In case you're wondering what a rebuttal is, my response to the claim that God transcends all natural law was a rebuttal. If that claim were correct, he wouldn't be constrained to the narrow limits of the physical constants that needed to be finely tuned. If my argument is correct, yours is wrong. That's what a rebuttal is, not merely telling someone that they don't know what they're talking about.

You also don't answer the questions asked of you. Only you know why you refuse to cooperate in discussion. I don't have the interest to ask you twice, so I'll assume that you did make that fine tuning argument, although it wouldn't matter if you hadn't. If you want to have some input into these discussions, you'll have to answer questions asked and rebut arguments made. I already know that you disagree with any argument I make that conflicts with your religious beliefs, but that doesn't matter to anybody but you if you won't or can't rebut counterarguments.

God created the laws and of course he isn't subject to those laws. Who said he had to create the world in one way?

Anybody making the fine tuning argument is saying so.

That's was the point of the rebuttal - to show where those making fine tuning arguments for God are unwittingly describing a deity constrained by natural law, a deity smart enough to discover what those numbers must be and to incorporate them into his design of our universe, but not powerful enough to transcend them.

I finely tune my guitar because it and I are constrained by the laws of physics. If I were their author, I'd just nullify them and will the strings and notes to harmonize, although I'd still be constrained by the laws of harmony, which are mathematical. Apparently, God can't do that when tuning universes, either.
 
Who cares? In reality, there are tens of thousands.
I do, because if there are many sects, God doesn’t recognize, authorize or agree with division in the Body of Christ. So if you don’t care not sure why you commented. When God looks at the Church He sees 1 Body not many sects. Although He did address believers in certain cities or areas.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
What a tiny view of God you have.

It can only be extrapolated from the claims of theists.

You don't understand who he is at all.

Well deities are an appeal to mystery, with no explanatory powers whatsoever, so you seem to be shooting the messenger.

He's not constrained by anything but his nature.

Unevidenced assertions alert (1)...:rolleyes:

God created the laws and of course he isn't subject to those laws.

Unevidenced assertions alert (2)...:rolleyes:

Who said he had to create the world in one way?

Religions of course, and of course the world was not created, a simple layman's understanding of cosmology debunks this nonsense.
Where are you coming up with this nonsense?

:D Physician heal thyself...
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I do, because if there are many sects, God doesn’t recognize, authorize or agree with division in the Body of Christ. So if you don’t care not sure why you commented. When God looks at the Church He sees 1 Body not many sects. Although He did address believers in certain cities or areas.
You can't really blame SkepticThinker for saying there are divisions. When people refuse communion to each other, they oppose the unity that you are talking about.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I do, because if there are many sects, God doesn’t recognize, authorize or agree with division in the Body of Christ.

Yes and everyone of the 45000 different global sects claim they are the right ones, obviously. I think you might be missing the point here, deliberately?

So if you don’t care not sure why you commented.

To illustrate to unreliable nature of your claim.

When God looks at the Church He sees 1 Body not many sects.

Unevidenced assertion (1) :rolleyes:

Although He did address believers in certain cities or areas.

Unevidenced assertion (2) :rolleyes:
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Can you explain why you think it is a straw man fallacy, Sheldon?

Yes, I pointed out that globally there are over 45000 different Christian sects. Then @ElishaElijah responded with "There is only 1 Church not 45K different ones." which was not the claim I had made, though this straw man obviously is a poor one, since church here is open to interpretation. So it might also be viewed as simple hand waving denial of the fact there over 45000 different Christian sects globally.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
I’ve been observing, reading the replies in the thread, and y’know, I would like to throw my hat into this ring.

To begin, I feel it necessary to state that the Stoic conception of God (or Zeus, Jupiter) is as the immanent Creative Force within the Universe (Logos, Logos spermatikos) who providentially orders the Universe. Indeed, for us Stoics, God is the Universe Itself, the Cosmos.

Having established this, I’m curious – and I invite atheists to make attempts – what would be your justification for disbelieving given the conception of God described above?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
How many Christian sects does God say there are in the Bible?
So your deity couldn't even get this right, and there are 45000 globally, and counting, over 200 in the US alone. Christianity is a schism of Judaism as well of course, and Islam of Christianity, and these are just the ones in vogue...
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
what would be your justification for disbelieving given the conception of God described above?

Just as all other claims I disbelieve, I see no objective evidence for an "immanent Creative Force within the Universe", or for one that "providentially orders the Universe." I simply find the assertion that "God is the Universe Itself" a meaningless assertion. One could as easily assert mermaids are the universe itself, what does it even mean?
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
It can only be extrapolated from the claims of theists.



Well deities are an appeal to mystery, with no explanatory powers whatsoever, so you seem to be shooting the messenger.



Unevidenced assertions alert (1)...:rolleyes:



Unevidenced assertions alert (2)...:rolleyes:



Religions of course, and of course the world was not created, a simple layman's understanding of cosmology debunks this nonsense.


:D Physician heal thyself...
People who don't understand the Christian view of reality should not argue against it. You just end up showing your ignorance.
 

Sundance

pursuing the Divine Beloved
Premium Member
Just as all other claims I disbelieve, I see no objective evidence for an "immanent Creative Force within the Universe", or for one that "providentially orders the Universe." I simply find the assertion that "God is the Universe Itself" a meaningless assertion. One could as easily assert mermaids are the universe itself, what does it even mean?

I don’t think you understood what I meant. Perhaps that is my doing. Per the immanent Creative Force, I mean that which directs the processes of life and being in the Cosmos. Simple stuff, right? You don’t mean to argue that the creation of life and all of the happenings in the Universe are spontaneous, do you?



As for God being the Universe Itself, it means, firstly that God (Zeus, Jupiter) is conceptually equivalent to the Cosmos. A bit of a deeper explanation, I think, would help. Stoics were part of a school of philosophy. In Ancient Greece and Rome, people usually relied on stories to help them conceive of the physical world and of the gods (Who is Divinity? What is it like?). Then came certain individuals who said, “Enhhh…let’s use our intellect to build our concepts!” As a result, different schools developed different ideas. Zeus was no longer the King of the Gods in Greek mythology, but became various things: the First Cause, the Monad, etc.

As for the providential ordering of the Cosmos, that’s just the reality. The Universe is structured in such a way as is meant. It operates as it should, in an ultimately harmonic manner governed by different processes. Do you disagree?

Thirdly, to flip it the other way, it means that the Universe is considered worthy of reverence (divine).

Finally, none of this is meaningless. The conceptual framework from which each person operates makes all the difference in the world.
 
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So your deity couldn't even get this right, and there are 45000 globally, and counting, over 200 in the US alone. Christianity is a schism of Judaism as well of course, and Islam of Christianity, and these are just the ones in vogue...
What you don’t realize or understand is that in the Scripture God only recognizes the Body of Christ, One Church. Any Church that doesn’t submit to the Bible as their authority no matter what they call themselves are just the apostate church and not part of the Body of Christ. Paul addressed this in Corinthian Church.
“Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:10-13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
 
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