What doesn't make sense to me about Christianity

[pearl]

You can now eat unclean animals as far as I can tell.

Jesus claims “It is not what enters into a man’s mouth that defiles him, but it is what comes out of his mouth that defiles him.”

And at some point in history, the Sabbath seems to become Sunday instead of Saturday.

In early Christian communities of Paul, they worshiped in the synagogue on the Sabbath, and on the 'first day of the week' the Lord's day, they gathered for Eucharist.

So you've got all these Christians now who seem to more follow how they perceive the Old Testament stuff was.

Correct, Hebrew Scripture is understood, tilted, interpreted, towards Christian understanding of Jesus with post resurrection faith.

And if it so happens that modern Christianity as a whole isn't very much following Jesus, if it just so happens, how do we know they aren't doomed to be the false prophet or the anti-Christ of prophecy?

I guess it will be known when the church is handed back to Christ.

Or worse? What if modern-day Christianity is Babylon?

Babylon refers to the persecution of Christians by secular Roman Empire

 

[pearl]

Jesus was mostly loving, in my opinion. A bit angry too. But getting down to it.... without all the scare-tactics and conversion attempts from modern Christianity.... does Jesus really expect everyone to follow him? Wouldn't love trump forcing someone to be obedient?

Yes. Personally, I think what Jesus was teaching was the 'heart' of the Torah.

And Christians may want to make sure even if they follow the Christian crowd

For Jesus teaching to be successful, it must be tried. Gandhi may have believed 'in' Jesus if it were not for Christians.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

if they follow the Christian crowd

This is a key sentence to me in your OP @Snow White. Christians are to follow [the example of] Christ; not [that of] their fellow church-goers.


Humbly
Hermit

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This is a key sentence to me in your OP @Snow White. Christians are to follow [the example of] Christ; not [that of] their fellow church-goers.


Humbly
Hermit

I mean, yeah. My message isn't going to be against someone following the New Testament and reading the old, doing things like praying in their closet.

I worry more about Christianity as a politicized movement.

It's the latter, I worry, that could kind of become a dangerous system.

 

[firedragon]

You've got the Old Testament and the Abrahamic God. You start to know the Abrahamic God as someone to fear. He wipes out most humans with a flood. Then you've got laws about clean and unclean animals, etc.

Then comes the New Testament. Jesus comes, and his message is different enough that to me, it must be a new covenant. I interpret certain verses as going against the Old Testament, or at least changing things. You can now eat unclean animals as far as I can tell. And at some point in history, the Sabbath seems to become Sunday instead of Saturday.

Make sense? Well, I'm not done yet...

So you've got all these Christians now who seem to more follow how they perceive the Old Testament stuff was. Following Jesus' teachings is actually quite liberal, perhaps even socialist. Which as far as I can tell, isn't really compatible with the evangelism movement. In fact, I think the evangelism movement went even further in the opposite direction.

Then you've got the prophecies. Supposedly in the last days, there will be anti-Christs, AN anti-Christ, false prophets, and "A" false prophet.

And if it so happens that modern Christianity as a whole isn't very much following Jesus, if it just so happens, how do we know they aren't doomed to be the false prophet or the anti-Christ of prophecy?

Or worse? What if modern-day Christianity is Babylon?

And taking out all of the religious doctrine and dogma of modern Christianity in such a hypothetical scenario, and just looking at the ideas of Jesus.... Jesus was mostly loving, in my opinion. A bit angry too. But getting down to it.... without all the scare-tactics and conversion attempts from modern Christianity.... does Jesus really expect everyone to follow him? Wouldn't love trump forcing someone to be obedient?

Note: I think I've touched on some sensitive subjects with these what-ifs. But they're just that - what-ifs.

Before you think that a situation like this isn't possible historically, of thinking you're the heroes but being the villains, well two recent wars would like a word with you.

So as a recap, modern Christianity isn't necessarily the anti-Christ, the false prophet, or Babylon.

But what is?

And Christians may want to make sure even if they follow the Christian crowd, that they're on the right side, due to the message about lukewarm people and also people that say "Haven't I done many great things in your name?" and Jesus says "Depart. I know you not."

Then add to that that if I'm not mistaken, Revelation is a prophecy book, but doesn't it start by addressing the churches? *Grabs book to see*

All this assumes, of course, Jesus exists.

But it'd still create problems if he didn't. It'd then simply make modern Christians look like they're doing some strange parody, perhaps, of being Jewish. As far as I can tell.

So, can of worms. I think I may have opened a huge one.

Note: Hopefully I've gotten *most* of the fine details correct, but if not, heaven knows you'll kindly correct me and hopefully will also research my statements as well.

This is an everyday topic my friend. It's no can of worms anymore. Been like that for maybe 200 years. In fact, your concerns have been there since Marcion of Sinope. Thats like 2,000 years ago. The real can of worms surpassing this kind of rhetoric was opened by Wellhausen in my personal opinion in the 19th century. Now that's a real can of worms. Then came Christian scholarship.

I am interested in understanding how following Jesus according to the NT can be called liberalism. Do you mean only the synoptics or something? Can you explain how it could be liberalism?

Thanks.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

This is an everyday topic my friend. It's no can of worms anymore. Been like that for maybe 200 years. In fact, your concerns have been there since Marcion of Sinope. Thats like 2,000 years ago. The real can of worms surpassing this kind of rhetoric was opened by Wellhausen in my personal opinion in the 19th century. Now that's a real can of worms. Then came Christian scholarship.

I am interested in understanding how following Jesus according to the NT can be called liberalism. Do you mean only the synoptics or something? Can you explain how it could be liberalism?

Thanks.

Promoting change, promoting messages of love, and messages about giving to the poor.

Modern day American conservatism is more about Capitalism, maintaining the status quo, and promoting tradition.

But that's just what I think.

 

[firedragon]

Promoting change, promoting messages of love, and messages about giving to the poor.

Modern day American conservatism is more about Capitalism, maintaining the status quo, and promoting tradition.

But that's just what I think.

I like your thought, but Jesus didn't preach liberalism. I mean according to the Gospels. According to these books, he preached a reversal of societal norms. That's not liberalism.

But I don't want to start that debate and ruin your pudding. Thanks for responding. Have a great day.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Admittedly, my OP may have been a little sloppy due to it being a late-night post. Sometimes I need to remind myself to go to bed.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I like your thought, but Jesus didn't preach liberalism. I mean according to the Gospels. According to these books, he preached a reversal of societal norms. That's not liberalism.

But I don't want to start that debate and ruin your pudding. Thanks for responding. Have a great day.

Have a good day, too. My pudding remains in tact because I don't care whether this thread changes my mind or not, I'll simply follow where life takes me.

 

[firedragon]

Have a good day, too. My pudding remains in tact because I don't care whether this thread changes my mind or not, I'll simply follow where life takes me.

Sure sure. All good.

Cheers.

 

[icehorse]

So, can of worms. I think I may have opened a huge one.

I think you're starting to scratch the surface of the incoherence

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I think you're starting to scratch the surface of the incoherence

Heh. While it may have been what's on my mind, never post late.

Actually, do post late. Then you have an excuse.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Maybe I should think of a way of summarizing the whole post of the OP. Um, how about....

"How do you take the teachings of Jesus and end up like Mike Pence, Rand Paul, McConnell or (insert name of fiery preacher)?"

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Also, the Bible speaks of anti-Christs and false prophets, but there's also a main one of each, as talked about in Revelation 20:9-10

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Actually, depends whether the beast is the anti-Christ, too. The two may be separate.

 

[1213]

You've got the Old Testament and the Abrahamic God. You start to know the Abrahamic God as someone to fear. He wipes out most humans with a flood. Then you've got laws about clean and unclean animals, etc...
...Following Jesus' teachings is actually quite liberal, perhaps even socialist. ...
...Or worse? What if modern-day Christianity is Babylon?
...does Jesus really expect everyone to follow him?...
...So as a recap, modern Christianity isn't necessarily the anti-Christ, the false prophet, or Babylon.

But what is?........

Firstly, in Biblical point of view Antichrist is:

Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:22

Curiously, some "Christians" seem to think Jesus is the Father and by doing so they deny the son. I think there are many reasons to think modern Christianity is the Babylon. But, I think it is too vague idea and not necessary. Originally Christian meant a disciple of Jesus. And person is truly a disciple of Jesus if he remains in words of Jesus.

It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians.
Acts 11:26

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

By what I see, there are not many that are truly disciples of Jesus. And I think it would be good to point out that and teach people what it truly means to be a disciples of Jesus, a Christian.

I don't think people have to follow Jesus. And it would not be good, if person is pretending to do so, because he is forced to do so. Being fake Christians don't fool God, but maybe some humans. In Biblical point the judgment is by this:

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

But, I don't think Jesus or his teachings are socialist, at least not by how I understand what socialism means. In the teachings of Jesus:

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
Matt. 16:27

I have understood that is not what socialists think.

I don't think there is really any difference in Old and New Testament God. In both the crucial question is, is person righteous or not. Those who are righteous will live, and unrighteous die.

Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
Habakkuk 2:4

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Colt]

You've got the Old Testament and the Abrahamic God. You start to know the Abrahamic God as someone to fear. He wipes out most humans with a flood. Then you've got laws about clean and unclean animals, etc.

Then comes the New Testament. Jesus comes, and his message is different enough that to me, it must be a new covenant. I interpret certain verses as going against the Old Testament, or at least changing things. You can now eat unclean animals as far as I can tell. And at some point in history, the Sabbath seems to become Sunday instead of Saturday.

Make sense? Well, I'm not done yet...

So you've got all these Christians now who seem to more follow how they perceive the Old Testament stuff was. Following Jesus' teachings is actually quite liberal, perhaps even socialist. Which as far as I can tell, isn't really compatible with the evangelism movement. In fact, I think the evangelism movement went even further in the opposite direction.

Then you've got the prophecies. Supposedly in the last days, there will be anti-Christs, AN anti-Christ, false prophets, and "A" false prophet.

And if it so happens that modern Christianity as a whole isn't very much following Jesus, if it just so happens, how do we know they aren't doomed to be the false prophet or the anti-Christ of prophecy?

Or worse? What if modern-day Christianity is Babylon?

And taking out all of the religious doctrine and dogma of modern Christianity in such a hypothetical scenario, and just looking at the ideas of Jesus.... Jesus was mostly loving, in my opinion. A bit angry too. But getting down to it.... without all the scare-tactics and conversion attempts from modern Christianity.... does Jesus really expect everyone to follow him? Wouldn't love trump forcing someone to be obedient?

Note: I think I've touched on some sensitive subjects with these what-ifs. But they're just that - what-ifs.

Before you think that a situation like this isn't possible historically, of thinking you're the heroes but being the villains, well two recent wars would like a word with you.

So as a recap, modern Christianity isn't necessarily the anti-Christ, the false prophet, or Babylon.

But what is?

And Christians may want to make sure even if they follow the Christian crowd, that they're on the right side, due to the message about lukewarm people and also people that say "Haven't I done many great things in your name?" and Jesus says "Depart. I know you not."

Then add to that that if I'm not mistaken, Revelation is a prophecy book, but doesn't it start by addressing the churches? *Grabs book to see*

All this assumes, of course, Jesus exists.

But it'd still create problems if he didn't. It'd then simply make modern Christians look like they're doing some strange parody, perhaps, of being Jewish. As far as I can tell.

So, can of worms. I think I may have opened a huge one.

Note: Hopefully I've gotten *most* of the fine details correct, but if not, heaven knows you'll kindly correct me and hopefully will also research my statements as well.

There was the religion OF Jesus that he preached for 3+ years which ran afoul to the Jews theology and Messianic expectations. He was killed because of his Gospel message and claims of divinity. Christianity became a religion ABOUT Jesus, it changed after the cross, after he left.

With Jesus we were supposed to be starting over again but since his followers were Jews they tried to reason out their belief on him as a continuation of Judaism. They made a mess!

Paul never met Jesus, never heard him preach or teach. Paul had a spiritual awakening and formulated his own Gospel message. Being the most prominent and influential evangelist Paul heavily influenced beliefs about Jesus.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

To me, what doesn't make sense about Christianity is much, much simpler -- but also more complex because there are so many arguments against it.

It can never be right to sacrifice any person to provide a benefit to some other person. That Jesus had to die so that any of us could go to heaven simply has to be wrong. This is no different than sacrificial animals -- killing a goat isn't going to do God any good at all, so what on earth is the point? God doesn't need a goat, or the aroma of goat fat wafting up into His nostrils.

In any case, since Christians believe that Christ (part of God) could not die, well, then, He couldn't actually have been sacrificed anyway, could He?

It is irrational to believe contradictory things. Things like:

• God never changes
• God loves us
• Until God kills us
• Or condemns us to eternal torment
• And knows everything
• Except that His creation, which He called "good," pissed Him off, and
• He killed pretty much everybody
• And told you what not to eat, until
• He told Peter, "never mind, eat the lot..."
• But never changes.

Go figure...

 

[InChrist]

You've got the Old Testament and the Abrahamic God. You start to know the Abrahamic God as someone to fear. He wipes out most humans with a flood. Then you've got laws about clean and unclean animals, etc.

Then comes the New Testament. Jesus comes, and his message is different enough that to me, it must be a new covenant. I interpret certain verses as going against the Old Testament, or at least changing things. You can now eat unclean animals as far as I can tell. And at some point in history, the Sabbath seems to become Sunday instead of Saturday.

Make sense? Well, I'm not done yet...

So you've got all these Christians now who seem to more follow how they perceive the Old Testament stuff was. Following Jesus' teachings is actually quite liberal, perhaps even socialist. Which as far as I can tell, isn't really compatible with the evangelism movement. In fact, I think the evangelism movement went even further in the opposite direction.

Then you've got the prophecies. Supposedly in the last days, there will be anti-Christs, AN anti-Christ, false prophets, and "A" false prophet.

And if it so happens that modern Christianity as a whole isn't very much following Jesus, if it just so happens, how do we know they aren't doomed to be the false prophet or the anti-Christ of prophecy?

Or worse? What if modern-day Christianity is Babylon?

And taking out all of the religious doctrine and dogma of modern Christianity in such a hypothetical scenario, and just looking at the ideas of Jesus.... Jesus was mostly loving, in my opinion. A bit angry too. But getting down to it.... without all the scare-tactics and conversion attempts from modern Christianity.... does Jesus really expect everyone to follow him? Wouldn't love trump forcing someone to be obedient?

Note: I think I've touched on some sensitive subjects with these what-ifs. But they're just that - what-ifs.

Before you think that a situation like this isn't possible historically, of thinking you're the heroes but being the villains, well two recent wars would like a word with you.

So as a recap, modern Christianity isn't necessarily the anti-Christ, the false prophet, or Babylon.

But what is?

And Christians may want to make sure even if they follow the Christian crowd, that they're on the right side, due to the message about lukewarm people and also people that say "Haven't I done many great things in your name?" and Jesus says "Depart. I know you not."

Then add to that that if I'm not mistaken, Revelation is a prophecy book, but doesn't it start by addressing the churches? *Grabs book to see*

All this assumes, of course, Jesus exists.

But it'd still create problems if he didn't. It'd then simply make modern Christians look like they're doing some strange parody, perhaps, of being Jewish. As far as I can tell.

So, can of worms. I think I may have opened a huge one.

Note: Hopefully I've gotten *most* of the fine details correct, but if not, heaven knows you'll kindly correct me and hopefully will also research my statements as well.

This article may be helpful, at least with regard to the complimentary relationship between the OT and the NT...


“The Bible is one complete Book consisting of Old and New Testaments. In other words, there is direct continuity of Divine revelation and authority running right through all sixty-six books of the Bible. No one part contradicts another part, and if one part were to be missing there would be an obvious gap in the whole Book. There is not the slightest hint in the Bible that the earlier revelations were to be contradicted or cancelled by the New Testament. The casual reader might possibly find apparentcontradictions. Serious study however makes it clear that the later parts of the Bible are not contradictory but complementary. They are given as a further development of the earlier revelation in order to give a wider understanding of an important subject.”
4. The Continuity of Doctrine | Bible.org

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

To me, what doesn't make sense about Christianity is much, much simpler -- but also more complex because there are so many arguments against it.

It can never be right to sacrifice any person to provide a benefit to some other person. That Jesus had to die so that any of us could go to heaven simply has to be wrong. This is no different than sacrificial animals -- killing a goat isn't going to do God any good at all, so what on earth is the point? God doesn't need a goat, or the aroma of goat fat wafting up into His nostrils.

In any case, since Christians believe that Christ (part of God) could not die, well, then, He couldn't actually have been sacrificed anyway, could He?

It is irrational to believe contradictory things. Things like:

• God never changes
• God loves us
• Until God kills us
• Or condemns us to eternal torment
• And knows everything
• Except that His creation, which He called "good," pissed Him off, and
• He killed pretty much everybody
• And told you what not to eat, until
• He told Peter, "never mind, eat the lot..."
• But never changes.

Go figure...

There are contradictions in the Bible, as demonstrated in these articles: 101 Clear Contradictions In The Bible and Top 20 Most Damning Bible Contradictions. One example I'd like to point out is Hebrews 9:27. It states that people are destined to die once and after that face judgment, but in Revelation 20:13, it says that the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Hebrews 9:27 also contradicts Daniel 12:2, which says, "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Another example is the scriptures that confirm a Christian's salvation can be stripped away by Jesus if they don't follow God's will. Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats is one example, and so is this verse: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). And there lies another contradiction in the Bible, because Romans 10:9:13 says that if someone declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, they will be saved. This Bible passage asserts that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. There are more examples of contradictions in the Bible I could post, but I think these will suffice.