Does it matter what we believe if we don’t love one another ?

[Aupmanyav]

Let’s say all the governments on earth pool their resources and wealth and establish permanent free .. la .. la .. la.

Which governments, USA and Russia, or China and India, or Iran and Saudi Arabia?

 

[Heyo]

When Prophets ask their followers to love all, what do you think they mean?

I don't know what they mean. I think it is neither possible nor necessary to love everybody. Just don't hate anybody.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

I don't know what they mean. I think it is neither possible nor necessary to love everybody. Just don't hate anybody.

Like most irreligious you are taking this way too literally. I'm pretty sure the literal message he is trying to convey is to show love and compassion towards everybody you interact with. To treat others the way you want to be treated. Yes, Baha'is and other faiths exaggerate these claims but I think overall their golden rule is don't be unkind to others. And that is something we all need to practice on a fundamental level.

 

[joe1776]

Since you asked me, a strong atheist, I believe prophets are fakes or people with psychological problems (like change the world). The world does not change.
They mean to be recognized as someone special (narcissism , megalomania) or are looking for some kind of profit.

The prophets are in it for profit?

 

[osgart]

To me love is an effect of many good qualities. It's also the intention of good will towards others.

I don't see the need for religion to have good will towards others. My Christian upbringing made it seem that everyone was sinners, and the only good will was the believer toward their enemies, and other believers alike. The kindness I've gotten from non believers put that condition to death for me. It's a false condition, and a harmful view on other humans.

I came to RF looking for religions that embraced humanity without the us vs. them mentalities all hinged on belief and convictions of faith.

I think love should be hinged on having good will and good qualities alone and not on any religious, or non religious convictions. People of good will towards others live there lives in many different ways. There's room for mercy, as well as times where judgment is necessary against those who violate good will.

Not everyone is going to have the same moral convictions, but in general there are those who have good will, and those that have otherwise.

And what is good will towards others but to care about the general welfare of all life on Earth. It's only extreme evils that draw severe judgment. Many other things can be tolerated, or looked past.

 

[Heyo]

The prophets are in it for profit?

Good that atheism is a non prophet organization.

 

[Trailblazer]

And you believe that god is the cause of the material world. Therefore your god must be the cause of suffering, disease and all the evils of the world.

God caused suffering and diseases by virtue of how He created a material world in which He knew humans would suffer, but God is not the cause of evil. Humans cause evil by not adhering to the Laws of God.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[ppp]

Humans cause evil by not adhering to the Laws of God.

Don't forget you also said "suffering" and "disease"; both of which are necessarily caused by your god under your cosmogony.

Also, some of your purported laws of God are, in fact, evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

The new Earth is an extension of heaven. The material world was once perfect so no, it's not the material world that causes suffering.

I believe that Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden is an allegorical story, but even if they did exist, what reason do you have to believe that the entire world was once like a Garden of Eden? Where in the Bible does it say that?

If you think the entire world was once perfect like the Garden of Eden do you think that would be the kind of world everyone would want to live in? That would like going back to the past before we had science and technology. I cannot see the entire population of the earth that exists now wanting or being able to live that way.

God cursed the earth because of human sin. We disobeyed him. We didn't have to, you know.

Who is "we?" Even if there was an Adam and Eve that disobeyed God and sinned why would everyone else who lived after that be a sinner? I do not believe we are born in sin, I believe we were created good and that is what the Bible says.
Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

I believe we all have a lower material nature so we all have the propensity to sin, but we also have a higher nature, a spiritual nature, and because we have free will, we can all choose to act according to one of these natures.
THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

"The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality"
Some Answered Questions, p. 118

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't forget you also said "suffering" and "disease"; both of which are necessarily caused by your god under your cosmogony.

That is correct.

Also, some of your purported laws of God are, in fact, evil.

That is incorrect. God did not reveal any laws that are evil. Whatever laws that God revealed were what humans needed at the time of revelation.

 

[ppp]

That is correct.

Which makes your god evil.

That is incorrect. God did not reveal any laws that are evil. Whatever laws that God revealed were what humans needed at the time of revelation.

I agree that your god did not reveal any evil laws. Nor good laws. Nor laws lacking any moral weight. But I am indeed correct that some of the laws that you claim to have been revealed by your are most certainly evil.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, that is wrong. First of all, there is no single morality that all atheists subscribe to. ALL they agree upon is that there are no deities.

In my view, morality is based on thinking and caring, not just on survival. Human well-being is the fundamental value. Survival is certainly one component of that, but so is the ability to live a satisfying and fulfilled life.



I think it is possible to make moral judgements on the characters in the Bible, including the character of God. Do they promote human well-being or not? And, when a clear judgement is made, that God is a cruel, vindictive, egotistical, genocidal maniac.

In my view, creating us isn't enough to counter that evil. of course, I consider the whole story to be fiction, so it isn't really a problem.

I only wanted to comment on the last sentence, but I felt the whole post was worth putting out there again.

The whole story could very well be fiction. Not all Bible-believers take it all literally. Then Baha'is make most of it symbolic. I think that it could very well have been composed and pieced together by religious leaders who wanted to tell the story of their people and their God in fictional stories. But, to get people to believe, especially when it came to following the rules, they wrote it as if it was true and promoted as being true. But that is slightly different than what Baha'is do to it. I don't think the main message was some mysterious symbolic thing. I think the main message was in the story as told.... in the way the story is literally told. They wanted the people to believe their God really did all those things... rewarded those that obeyed and punished those that didn't. I think they wanted their God to be feared.

But now with the Baha'is, and their belief that this invisible God wants all people to love one another and come together in peace and unity. Is this still a religious leader saying things and attributing them to a God that no one can see or hear except for himself? The prophet of the Baha'is? And even Baha'is believe this does happen, but of course not with their prophet but the prophet of the Ahmadiyyas, Mīrzā Gulām Ahmad. So, people do make claims of being sent from a God. And some people say that God sent an angel to speak with them... like with Joseph Smith. But the Mormons and the Ahmadiyyas are at least as big and maybe have a bigger following than the Baha'is. Which, for me, shows that a good made-up story about God does still get people, lots of people, to believe in it. Literally true? Symbolically true? Does it matter when it was just fiction?

 

[CG Didymus]

Which makes your god evil.

I agree that your god did not reveal any evil laws. Nor good laws. Nor laws lacking any moral weight. But I am indeed correct that some of the laws that you claim to have been revealed by your are most certainly evil.

Yes, did God say that people that commit certain sins should be stoned to death? Then cutting a person's hand off? I don't know for sure, but did God reveal the caste system? To me, it sure sounds like something religious leaders and others in positions of power would impose on the people... then say, "God said that this is how things must be done." And now we have God speaking again. He still hates people that disobey his sexual laws. No gay sex. I think he says that's a mental problem. No sex outside of marriage. But, at least, God has lightened up a bit and doesn't have adulterers and fornicators stoned to death... They just have to pay a fine. Like that's going to prevent people from fooling around? They believe a soul enters the body at conception, so they are probably going to be against abortion. There's something about tattooing a thief on the forehead or something. Then burning an arsonist to death. And who's going to enforce all of these rules of God? Not God, but the religious leaders of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which makes your god evil.

Not in fact, only in your personal opinion.

I agree that your god did not reveal any evil laws. Nor good laws. Nor laws lacking any moral weight. But I am indeed correct that some of the laws that you claim to have been revealed by your are most certainly evil.

If you are referring to laws in the Old Testament, many of those so-called laws are man-made laws, not laws revealed by God. Of course, that is only my personal opinion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Which governments, USA and Russia, or China and India, or Iran and Saudi Arabia?

Yes, all the nations of the world must unite and destroy their nuclear weapons and tanks and rockets and machine guns. I'm sure not one of those countries would lie about it and hide a few weapons. Yeah right, in the U.S. we can't even get civilians to disarm. But... then again, God did tell the Baha'i prophet that it will happen. And who can argue with that?

 

[ppp]

Yes, did God say that people that commit certain sins should be stoned to death? Then cutting a person's hand off? I don't know for sure, but did God reveal the caste system? To me, it sure sounds like something religious leaders and others in positions of power would impose on the people... then say, "God said that this is how things must be done."

Do you have anything tobase what it sounds like to you on anything other than your personal moral standards? I am not saying that one cannot have valid standards or morality. But if I one uses those standards for deciding on the nature of God then all one is doing is making God, oneself

And who's going to enforce all of these rules of God? Not God, but the religious leaders of the Baha'i Faith.

Absolutely!

 

[Wildswanderer]

If you think the entire world was once perfect like the Garden of Eden do you think that would be the kind of world everyone would want to live in? That would like going back to the past before we had science and technology. I cannot see the entire population of the earth that exists now wanting or being able to live that way.

You know the Bible right? Then you know what it says about the new Earth and about the holy city there. It doesn't sound primitive to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know the Bible right? Then you know what it says about the new Earth and about the holy city there. It doesn't sound primitive to me.

I guess you are referring to the Book of Revelation and what it says about the New Jerusalem. Yes, I know those verses but I don't interpret them literally so I do not think that the New Jerusalem is a Holy City that will come down out of heaven from God.

Revelation 21
New International Version

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I believe that the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, refers to the new Law of God that came by way of Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

 

[ppp]

Not in fact, only in your personal opinion.

The being that you depict as god is evil. In. Fact.

But it doesn't matter. A rule is evil when it causes substantial demonstrable harm to others without demonstrable justification for that rule. And people who advocate for such rules are doing evil.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The prophets are in it for profit?

Yes. As an atheist, I do not believe in existence of any God or his sending prophets or messengers.