God loves mass killings?

[Spiderman]

In 2 Samuel 24, we find that King David decided to take a census of the men of fighting age. The prophet Gad was sent to David to announce God’s displeasure with the taking of the census. The punishment for David’s sin: “The Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died” (2 Samuel 24:15). David makes a decision that does not please God, and God kills 70,000 Israelites for it?

Keep in mind, those are 70,000 people not guilty of the crime that they are being punished for.

This is actually a minor atrocity and injustice compared to other things God does in Scripture.

I could list a whole crap load of atrocities God delights in, but I'll focus on this, because I live in Minnesota, and we actually have pestilence, lime disease carrying ticks, mosquitoes, fleas, bed bugs that leave you looking like you have chicken pocks, roaches, and gnats up the wazoo, and working outside in the summer can be a nightmare!

But pestilence usually refers to a plague or epidemic. Either way, it is a very unpleasant, miserable way to go, and often involves infestations of rodents, fleas, or bugs.

To kill 70,000 people with pestilence over a census they are guilty of , is disgusting. In this case, it is extremely highly likely those people were not guilty of the census, just trying to simply live, provide for their families, and make a living by the sweat of their brow, without toilet paper, running water, plumbing, or electricity.

Their life already sucks and is harsh! Send them agony, torture, death of loved ones, pestilence, over a friggin census?

The Bible paints God up to be far more sick than I am on my worst days imaginable. I have outbursts of rage rarely, calm down, apologize, and don't kill people, even when they yank my arm out of socket, incarcerate me, put scabs and bruises on my face, and bloody my nose (all of which homo sapiens have done to me. I didn't kill them or want to).

I'm so glad Im not as narcissistic, sadistic, and sociopathic as the God of the Bible is!

But Christians at this website keep telling me, "God would never want you to hurt someone, Matthew!"

Oh really??

I mean, seriously??


Am I the only person here who has read the Bible from Genesis to revelation? It was so nauseating I almost blew chunks and vomited on the pages!

Fortunately, there are human beings I meet every day way nicer than the God of Scripture, and heavenly beings to pray to other than him.

The Bible is sometimes just a terrible thing to be using to judge, condemn, and correct people. I'm taking a stand against injustice and hatred!

Now excuse me while I go vomit!

 

[Aupmanyav]

This one seems to be a very disgusting fellow. Other Gods are much nicer, fun-loving.

 

[Spiderman]

Some of this is more me venting my resentment at God's injustice, but if a Christian would like to help explain this **** to me, that could help.

I don't really like to discourage or cause people to doubt their faith, but before using the Bible to judge, condemn, or correct people of other Religions, look at what some of Scripture contains perhaps?

 

[PureX]

Am I the only person here who has read the Bible from Genesis to revelation? It was so nauseating I almost blew chunks and vomited on the pages!

Fortunately, there are human beings I meet every day way nicer than the God of Scripture, and heavenly beings to pray to other than him.

The Bible is sometimes just a terrible thing to be using to judge, condemn, and correct people. I'm taking a stand against injustice and hatred!

Now excuse me while I go vomit!

What exactly are you looking for, here? An excuse to be a violent jerk? An excuse to blame God for you having been a violent jerk in the past? An excuse to reject God? What?

The Bible is a whole collection of different bits of writing by different men in different times and places, about how they conceived of and related to God. Much of it is mythical, meaning that it's purpose is NOT FACTUAL, but is representational of their cultural and religious ideals. Some of it was written with the deliberate purpose of perplexing the reader, causing him to deeply contemplate the inexplicable and awesome reality of God as God is experienced God in/through real life.

The Bible is not an ancient newspaper. It is not a history book. And it was not written to give you answers. It was written and assembled to make you think, and to help you find the answers you need within yourself.

 

[Spiderman]

What exactly are you looking for, here? An excuse to be a violent jerk? An excuse to blame God for you having been a violent jerk in the past? An excuse to reject God? What?

The Bible is a whole collection of different bits of writing by different men in different times and places, about how they conceived of and related to God. Much of it is mythical, meaning that it's purpose is NOT FACTUAL, but is representational of their cultural and religious ideals. Some of it was written with the deliberate purpose of perplexing the reader, causing him to deeply contemplate the inexplicable and awesome reality of God as God is experienced God in/through real life.

The Bible is not an ancient newspaper. It is not a history book. And it was not written to give you answers. It was written and assembled to make you think, and to help you find the answers you need within yourself.

I'm telling people the Bible is a bad piece of literature to judge, condemn, and correct people, when it contains obviously huge errors!

 

[Sand Dancer]

In 2 Samuel 24, we find that King David decided to take a census of the men of fighting age. The prophet Gad was sent to David to announce God’s displeasure with the taking of the census. The punishment for David’s sin: “The Lord sent a pestilence on Israel from that morning until the appointed time; and seventy thousand of the people died” (2 Samuel 24:15). David makes a decision that does not please God, and God kills 70,000 Israelites for it?

Keep in mind, those are 70,000 people not guilty of the crime that they are being punished for.

This is actually a minor atrocity and injustice compared to other things God does in Scripture.

I could list a whole crap load of atrocities God delights in, but I'll focus on this, because I live in Minnesota, and we actually have pestilence, lime disease carrying ticks, mosquitoes, fleas, bed bugs that leave you looking like you have chicken pocks, roaches, and gnats up the wazoo, and working outside in the summer can be a nightmare!

But pestilence usually refers to a plague or epidemic. Either way, it is a very unpleasant, miserable way to go, and often involves infestations of rodents, fleas, or bugs.

To kill 70,000 people with pestilence over a census they are guilty of , is disgusting. In this case, it is extremely highly likely those people were not guilty of the census, just trying to simply live, provide for their families, and make a living by the sweat of their brow, without toilet paper, running water, plumbing, or electricity.

Their life already sucks and is harsh! Send them agony, torture, death of loved ones, pestilence, over a friggin census?

The Bible paints God up to be far more sick than I am on my worst days imaginable. I have outbursts of rage rarely, calm down, apologize, and don't kill people, even when they yank my arm out of socket, incarcerate me, put scabs and bruises on my face, and bloody my nose (all of which homo sapiens have done to me. I didn't kill them or want to).

I'm so glad Im not as narcissistic, sadistic, and sociopathic as the God of the Bible is!

But Christians at this website keep telling me, "God would never want you to hurt someone, Matthew!"

Oh really??

I mean, seriously??


Am I the only person here who has read the Bible from Genesis to revelation? It was so nauseating I almost blew chunks and vomited on the pages!

Fortunately, there are human beings I meet every day way nicer than the God of Scripture, and heavenly beings to pray to other than him.

The Bible is sometimes just a terrible thing to be using to judge, condemn, and correct people. I'm taking a stand against injustice and hatred!

Now excuse me while I go vomit!

Just because people wrote something doesn't mean it's true. Religion always absorbs some of the local culture, and it was a barbaric time then. There are positive and negative verses; I prefer to just use the positive, because I don't want to listen to some warrior's stories.

 

[PureX]

I'm telling people the Bible is a bad piece of literature to judge, condemn, and correct people, when it contains obviously huge errors!

It doesn't contain any "errors" at all. Because it's not that kind of text. The only way you can see "error" in it is to apply expectations to it that don't don't belong to it.

Think of a song or a poem. These are not pieces of texts that contain "errors" because they are documents of human expression, not recitations of facts. There is no right or wrong, there is only what the writers think and feel about God as they understand God. You can agree or disagree with it, you can like it or dislike it, but it is what it is. And there is no "error" in that.

 

[1213]

...
Keep in mind, those are 70,000 people not guilty of the crime that they are being punished for.
...

Not all of them died, so there must have been some reason why those 70000 died while the others didn’t. What if they had done something to deserve it?

 

[Spiderman]

Not all of them died, so there must have been some reason why those 70000 died while the others didn’t. What if they had done something to deserve it?

It's possible. I find it not very likely, because pestilence usually simply kills people at random, whilst others survive for reasons, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God selecting who he wants to live and die.

If an earthquake in Haiti kills a hundred thousand people, while the rest live, I think we all know, some are innocent of serious, unrepentant, unconfessed crimes against God . Others casualties are, in good standing with God!

 

[Spiderman]

It doesn't contain any "errors" at all. Because it's not that kind of text. The only way you can see "error" in it is to apply expectations to it that don't don't belong to it.

Think of a song or a poem. These are not pieces of texts that contain "errors" because they are documents of human expression, not recitations of facts. There is no right or wrong, there is only what the writers think and feel about God as they understand God. You can agree or disagree with it, you can like it or dislike it, but it is what it is. And there is no "error" in that.

If it presents lies as facts, and those lies are used for to justify bad behavior, such as the people who justify slavery with Noah cursing the descendants of Ham to be slaves, those are errors in my book!

The commandment " thou shalt not make of thee a graven image", strikes me as being an error , on the basis of how misleading it is, because later God commands Moses to create a crucial brazen bronze graven image of a Serpent!

Israelites had to turn to the Serpent to save their lives and be healed!

Every Christian Church on earth for over 1500 years, permitted the creation of graven images that are sacred, to be used to transmit grace, and raise the mind and heart to God and Divine realities!

So, extremely misleading destructive verses that stir up harsh judgements and condemnations, that contradict other commands in Scripture, strike me as erroneous!

 

[PureX]

If it presents lies as facts, and those lies are used for to justify bad behavior, such as the people who justify slavery with Noah cursing the descendants of Ham to be slaves, those are errors in my book!

It's called FICTION. Fiction does not present lies as facts. It's representational. There are no "facts" to it. Only representational characters and events and outcomes. If you are expecting "facts" from fiction than you are imposing expectations on it that do not belong to it.

The commandment " thou shalt not make of thee a graven image", strikes me as being an error , on the basis of how misleading it is, because later God commands Moses to create a crucial brazen bronze graven image of a Serpent!

It's a STORY made up by men to represent the ideals of their time. God didn't command any of those things. And the fact that you keep treating it as if it were a recitation of facts only makes you the fool. Not God or the Bible.

 

[Spiderman]

It's called FICTION. Fiction does not present lies as facts. It's representational. There are no "facts" to it. Only representational characters and events and outcomes. If you are expecting "facts" from fiction than you are imposing expectations on it that do not belong to it.
It's a STORY made up by men to represent the ideals of their time. God didn't command any of those things. And the fact that you keep treating it as if it were a recitation of facts only makes you the fool. Not God or the Bible.

I never said it is facts! Bottom lin is, roughly two billion Christians on earth believe Scripture to be inspired by God, and Scripture even declares "all Scripture is inspired by God"

THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A LIE, if indeed Scripture is fiction. No where does Scripture declare Scripture to be fiction, and Scripture is used by countless hundreds of millions of people as factual historical information, inerrant teachings, and inspired by God, is wrong!

There is something seriously wrong with that!

 

[PureX]

I never said it is facts! Bottom lin is, roughly two billion Christians on earth believe Scripture to be inspired by God, and Scripture even declares "all Scripture is inspired by God"

That doesn't mean any of it is factual. There are many highly inspiring works of fiction. In fact, I dare to say that the most inspiring works of literature ever written were fiction. And I will also say that most theists understand what fiction is, and what inspiration is, and do not confuse either of these with factuality.

THAT IS OBVIOUSLY A LIE, if indeed Scripture is fiction. No where does Scripture declare Scripture to be fiction, and Scripture is used by countless hundreds of millions of people as factual historical information, inerrant teachings, and inspired by God, is wrong!

Actually, the idea that the Bible is historical and inerrant is a very recent conceptual development and is only applicable to a small sub-sect of Christianity. I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic schools until 10th grade and I can assure you that no one in them ever proclaimed that the Bible was historically accurate or ideologically inerrant. Though they clearly considered the text to be divinely inspired. And Catholicism includes a significant portion of religious Christianity.

 

[John D. Brey]

Some of this is more me venting my resentment at God's injustice, but if a Christian would like to help explain this **** to me, that could help.

According to a general reading of the Bible, the God, and the world, you expect, rightfully so, existed in the garden of Eden prior to Adam's original sin. If you found yourself there, in the garden of Eden, none of the ugly things you legitimately point to would exist: you'd be happy with your life, your world, and your God.

So it's only after Adam's original sin that he's thrown out of the warm cuddly world and the presence of the gentle graceful God (who provides everything he wants, and nothing he doesn't). It's this God, and this world (inside the garden of Eden) that you reference when you create your God and your world in your own image, or at least in an image you imply you could enjoy and respect.

What's this got to do with the 70,000 innocent victims of David's lapse in judgement who're the poster-children for this thread?

Without getting into the doctrines of Lapsarianism, and the 4, or 5, points of Calvinism, the answer to the question of the 70,000 innocent victims of David's lapse is that in this post-Eden world, this lapsed world, technically there are no victims since everyone born into this tragic realm are born into Adam's original sin such that even if they could live a sinless, perfect, life, they would still come under the ultimate judgement of God: death.

Death didn't exist in Eden. It's the ultimate prize for the original sin. And it's transferred through the testes, and their deliverer, the fleshly serpent, to the seed of the woman every time the serpent rises to the occasion of bringing another "born-sinner" into the world of death, disease, and all the other terrors associated with this lapsed hell-hole.

In this sense, the 70,000 alleged victims don't die because of David's sin, they die because of Adam's original sin. At best, David's sin merely cuts their natural life in this hell-hole short. In truth it's probably a blessing more than a curse (2 Corinthians 5:7-8).

But still, assuming they like their life in this hell-hole (John 12:25), why should it be cut short by David's error, rather than one of their own? That's the gist of the problem as I read it.

The answer to that question is related to the doctrines of "election" and "predestination." The basics of those doctrines is that no person dies prematurely, ever. The time, place, and manner, of their death, is not only known to God in eternity past (trillions of years ago), but the time and manner of their death is perfectly, and fairly, chosen by God.

But why might God chose for someone to die at a young age for an error made by David, while David goes on living? Why does his first son through his sin with Bathsheba die, while he, the sinner goes on living?

These are question related to the doctrines of election and predestination.

My spiritual mentor, Col., R.B. Thieme, Jr., explained these things through an analogy he called the computer of divine decrees. Every human has a PROM chip, that's plugged into God's ROM chip. God runs every human's PROM chip through billions and billions of historical simulations until, through the knowledge gained by testing every human's freewill decisions against every possible variable, God coordinates every PROM chip, seamlessly printing out an actual history that affords best with every human's freewill and God's foreknowledge of all things.

When a person dies because of David's sin, ala the firstborn of David and Bathsheba, that death, though from our slender perspective is a tragic transgression of righteousness and fairness, from God's much broader perspectives, printed out as his divine decrees (actual human history), is quite different:

A. The decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be---in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations ----and determining their certain futurition.

R.B. Thieme, Jr., The Integrity of God, Appendix B, p. 258.​

John

 

[Spiderman]

According to a general reading of the Bible, the God, and the world, you expect, rightfully so, existed in the garden of Eden prior to Adam's original sin. If you found yourself there, in the garden of Eden, none of the ugly things you legitimately point to would exist: you'd be happy with your life, your world, and your God.

So it's only after Adam's original sin that he's thrown out of the warm cuddly world and the presence of the gentle graceful God (who provides everything he wants, and nothing he doesn't). It's this God, and this world (inside the garden of Eden) that you reference when you create your God and your world in your own image, or at least in an image you imply you could enjoy and respect.

What's this got to do with the 70,000 innocent victims of David's lapse in judgement who're the poster-children for this thread?

Without getting into the doctrines of Lapsarianism, and the 4, or 5, points of Calvinism, the answer to the question of the 70,000 innocent victims of David's lapse is that in this post-Eden world, this lapsed world, technically there are no victims since everyone born into this tragic realm are born into Adam's original sin such that even if they could live a sinless, perfect, life, they would still come under the ultimate judgement of God: death.

Death didn't exist in Eden. It's the ultimate prize for the original sin. And it's transferred through the testes, and their deliverer, the fleshly serpent, to the seed of the woman every time the serpent rises to the occasion of bringing another "born-sinner" into the world of death, disease, and all the other terrors associated with this lapsed hell-hole.

In this sense, the 70,000 alleged victims don't die because of David's sin, they die because of Adam's original sin. At best, David's sin merely cuts their natural life in this hell-hole short. In truth it's probably a blessing more than a curse (2 Corinthians 5:7-8).

But still, assuming they like their life in this hell-hole (John 12:25), why should it be cut short by David's error, rather than one of their own? That's the gist of the problem as I read it.

The answer to that question is related to the doctrines of "election" and "predestination." The basics of those doctrines is that no person dies prematurely, ever. The time, place, and manner, of their death, is not only known to God in eternity past (trillions of years ago), but the time and manner of their death is perfectly, and fairly, chosen by God.

But why might God chose for someone to die at a young age for an error made by David, while David goes on living? Why does his first son through his sin with Bathsheba die, while he, the sinner goes on living?

These are question related to the doctrines of election and predestination.

My spiritual mentor, Col., R.B. Thieme, Jr., explained these things through an analogy he called the computer of divine decrees. Every human has a PROM chip, that's plugged into God's ROM chip. God runs every human's PROM chip through billions and billions of historical simulations until, through the knowledge gained by testing every human's freewill decisions against every possible variable, God coordinates every PROM chip, seamlessly printing out an actual history that affords best with every human's freewill and God's foreknowledge of all things.

When a person dies because of David's sin, ala the firstborn of David and Bathsheba, that death, though from our slender perspective is a tragic transgression of righteousness and fairness, from God's much broader perspectives, printed out as his divine decrees (actual human history), is quite different:

A. The decree of God is His eternal, holy, wise, and sovereign purpose, comprehending at once all things that ever were or will be---in their causes, courses, conditions, successions, and relations ----and determining their certain futurition.

R.B. Thieme, Jr., The Integrity of God, Appendix B, p. 258.​

John

God put the tree in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. God allowed the Serpent to enter the garden. God created the Serpent knowing what it would do in advance.

It is highly likely the Serpent was doing the will of God , precisely what God wanted him to.

God made Eve stupid enough to listen to a talking snake, and Adam stupid enough to listen to her.

Also, God did not need to punish us with original sin. There is no justice in cursing generations of people for what their parents did.

It is also highly likely God wanted Adam and Eve to fall , because God loves Drama, loves violence, loves to punish people, loves chaos and war, while pretending he's a lover of peace!

All of the drama entertains God! God is the reason for original sin, and He is the reason for the fall of Adam and Eve!

 

[John D. Brey]

God put the tree in the garden to tempt Adam and Eve. God allowed the Serpent to enter the garden. God created the Serpent knowing what it would do in advance.

It is highly likely the Serpent was doing the will of God , precisely what God wanted him to.

God made Eve stupid enough to listen to a talking snake, and Adam stupid enough to listen to her.

Also, God did not need to punish us with original sin. There is no justice in cursing generations of people for what their parents did.

It is also highly likely God wanted Adam and Eve to fall , because God loves Drama, loves violence, loves to punish people, loves chaos and war, while pretending he's a lover of peace!

All of the drama entertains God! God is the reason for original sin, and He is the reason for the fall of Adam and Eve!

In my opinion, you're totally correct so long as we assume God's omniscience and omnipotence have direct contact with creation. If that were the case, God would be creating a game he can't lose. But if he's really ballsy, so to say, he might want to play a game that might get ugly. Not just for his creatures, but for him too. If he wants a really fun game, like say in the movie Tron, he would have to enter the game putting his own existence on the line in competition with his creatures: he would have to incarnate even if, for a time, it gets ugly; if, for instance, he might himself end up bloody and all messed up in the process.

The world is a great crime, and someone must be made to pay for it. Mythologically read, the New Testament is the story of how someone, the right someone, does pay for it.

Jack Miles, Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God, p. 12.​

John

 

[Spiderman]

In my opinion, you're totally correct so long as we assume God's omniscience and omnipotence have direct contact with creation. If that were the case, God would be creating a game he can't lose. But if he's really ballsy, so to say, he might want to play a game that might get ugly. Not just for his creatures, but for him too. If he wants a really fun game, like say in the movie Tron, he would have to enter the game putting his own existence on the line in competition with his creatures: he would have to incarnate even if, for a time, it gets ugly; if, for instance, he might himself end up bloody and all messed up in the process.

The world is a great crime, and someone must be made to pay for it. Mythologically read, the New Testament is the story of how someone, the right someone, does pay for it.

Jack Miles, Christ: A Crisis in the Life of God, p. 12.​

John

That's lovely. But a little help from him in life. Like, getting wisdom, understanding, sound mind, and enlightenment when we pray to him a thousand times for it .

That would be a bit more ballsy of him to not just sit up there in Heaven in streets paved with gold, in a palace, with billions of lovers who adore him, and actually help people, open some eyes, guide people who pray to him, be a friend to those who seek truth.

Instead it is a confusing mess, because no one can understand Scripture apparently, and God makes people so stupid.

A little charity from God would be lovely. I'm talking like basic charity. That he would quit being a lazy , incompetent , worthless shepherd, and offer people instructions and understanding.

Now that would be great and I would praise him all the time and bless and love him!

 

[John D. Brey]

That would be a bit more ballsy of him to not just sit up there in Heaven in streets paved with gold, in a palace, with billions of lovers who adore him, and actually help people, open some eyes, guide people who pray to him, be a friend to those who seek truth.

What if he walked dirt paths, taught wisdom and good, did good, and pissed off the people who think they have a monopoly on good (like at least one person in this thread appears to believe), so that he gets pretty bloodied, and hangs around bleeding while deadbeats gawk at him bleeding?



John

 

[Spiderman]

What if he walked dirt paths, taught wisdom and good, did good, and pissed off the people who think they have a monopoly on good (like at least one person in this thread appears to believe), so that he gets pretty bloodied, and hangs around bleeding while deadbeats gawk at him bleeding?



John

If he were actually faithful to his word, I wouldn't get pissed off!

Because I tested his words to see the dishonesty, how much false hope his words give, that he refuses to shepherd and guide and heal people like he said he would, yes, I should be pissed!

I'm not a sociopath. He on the other hand has cruelty I have never seen in a creature before!

If he has the power to help a child getting raped, trafficked, tortured to death etc , then he can get off his lazy , wealthy , rich, famous rump, and at least notify police, so that police can go stop what is going on.

Instead he hides himself and watches humanity divide, war, go chaotic, rot in agony.

I have no reason to believe he got bloodied for doing anything righteous.

He wasn't faithful to his word, so why should I believe the New Testament??

Am I being unfair? I'm ready to accept him with open arms and praise him night and day, to see him be a little big faithful to his word in exchange!

 

[74x12]

Keep in mind, those are 70,000 people not guilty of the crime that they are being punished for.

If you pay attention God was angry at Israel first; not David. (2 Samuel 24:1)

But because of the righteousness and prayers of David; God would not punish Israel. So God allowed Satan to tempt David.

This was not really David's fault. Except if he had passed the test; then the wrath of God would have been stayed. Because David would have stood in the gap with his prayers for Israel. But when David gave into Satan's temptation his protection for Israel was removed for the time being.

But it was eventually David's prayer of repentance and sacrifice that stopped the plague before it killed even more people.