How many beliefs can you change in Christianity, if you still have 'total faith' in Jesus

[Clara Tea]

Hi,

I'm not a poet or a philosopher so I have to admit that some of the words you use are not part of my everyday vocabulary although I could look them up if I had to. I'm sure they have a deep meaning.

Nonetheless I would just like to comment on this sentence: "How creative can you get, while still setting all the other of your beliefs around the central core, which is faith in Jesus ?"

It seems that if a person has faith in Jesus, any "creative thinking" that contradicts Jesus's thinking, teachings or admonitions would be evidence of lack of faith in Jesus.

In other words having faith in Christ does not mean that a person becomes a skillful artist. intellectual or leader of men etc... but becomes a follower, a disciple of Christ.

You are saying that in order to follow the teachings of Jesus, one must follow and not have free choice. Couldn't they do both?

 

[Clara Tea]

But the reality represented by God is not just material, the material part of the universe according to science is only 5%, the remaining 95% is unobservable. Ancients have been talking about an omnipresent essence forever.

No, I don't do belief, reality is not belief, never will be. Reality is beyond concepts, it is on the other side. I know it is a difficult concept for you to understand as you use your brain mind exclusively. Reality will be present when you cease all thoughts. There is a reality represented by the concept of body, and there is a reality represented by the concept of spirit. The body reality we can experience easily, the spiritual is not of the brain and physical senses and one needs to do some efficacious spiritual practice in order to realize it.

Your psychology studies are of this world's reality, the 5% part, proper religious practice will provide realization of reality beyond the physical.

As I stated earlier, your perception of reality is presently limited to dualistic conceptualization, actual reality in non-dual. that is why it is necessary to cease all thought, to stop conceptualizing and deal with reality as it is.

Here is a famous zen saying to help people understand that the mind's conceptualization of reality is not reality.

"When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger" The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to realize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment.

As I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real.

What if one believes in reality? Then their belief and reality are the same. However, group thinking can change.

 

[rational experiences]

Lets hope the ever-filling cup doesn't tip over. That might be how the oceans were created.

Should you really blame science for destroying Christ gas?

You ask did God destroy Christ itself in nature,?

No.

As anti God does not exist. O earth the entity creator.

Christ came arose out of O gods earth owned stone body by erection of stone a mountain volcano.

Scientists knew.

Stone existed first. Christ was not Christ first. Space history causes cold clear gas.

You lied.

Why science caused it as you lied about natural history. By all purposes false theism.

Reason. You knowingly live in a cooled atmosphere so you knew. You chose science converting anyway so of course you caused an unnatural event yourself.

As Christ first was hot not cooled.

An asteroid owned ice in space the moon. Oceans reasoned.

Earth also owned water already itself. Not in an alight atmosphere.

Water existed in the great deep dark of space first said a theist. It wasn't alight.

Earth maintains balances so when underground mass shifts empty tunnels fill with water like a ship.

Was the science earth stone ark planet wisdom. Why he said oceans don't rise to the depth he worries about. Underground cities.

Earth keeps its volcanoes sealed by water flow into earths tunnels that forces the opened seals to shut.

It however doesn't stop cities from plate drop plunging into the sea. As you caused that event before. Plates changing. Know you did as you explore by knowledge the effects of the past science choices.

 

[rational experiences]

I think that you are saying that science didn't create man.

That seems to make sense, since man had to first invent science.

But, what we know about science, today, might explain much of the beginning of the universe (and perhaps explain life).

In earths heavens beginnings a volcano ∆erection spurted out gas spirit into space womb.

A thesis big banging blasting.

Space empty cold heated then cooled evolved filled in gas mass pushed water to the ground.

Space empty nothing human conscious thesis. Gases amassing cooling evolving changing.

Earths space filled in heavens

Human living inside the heavens conscious idealism.

Space journey filled in.

Nothing like any other space condition in out of space.

Do you human scientist know your human life beginnings?

As factual self evidence an ape living is not a human. Nor a humans consciousness.

No. You only pretend you know for ego reasons only.

You say as a science using science observing as a science an ape is the lesser being yet closest body. First in science.

As the only correct human science answer closest to your ownership.

Nearest type of life form similar.

As a human your intelligence knows why you make the ape status as if you seek your own destruction of non presence it is what you theory about.

As you do exist first number one dominion human.

Science sought destruction first. It never sought first creation. A lie.

You named it out of space by human reason not earths space.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Hi,

I'm not a poet or a philosopher so I have to admit that some of the words you use are not part of my everyday vocabulary although I could look them up if I had to. I'm sure they have a deep meaning.

Nonetheless I would just like to comment on this sentence: "How creative can you get, while still setting all the other of your beliefs around the central core, which is faith in Jesus ?"

It seems that if a person has faith in Jesus, any "creative thinking" that contradicts Jesus's thinking, teachings or admonitions would be evidence of lack of faith in Jesus.

In other words having faith in Christ does not mean that a person becomes a skillful artist. intellectual or leader of men etc... but becomes a follower, a disciple of Christ.

Or maybe I don't make sense. I have an unusual sort of mind, and I don't fully know myself, whether this be an aid or hinderence. Your comment is appreciated

 

[RestlessSoul]

But the reality represented by God is not just material, the material part of the universe according to science is only 5%, the remaining 95% is unobservable. Ancients have been talking about an omnipresent essence forever.

No, I don't do belief, reality is not belief, never will be. Reality is beyond concepts, it is on the other side. I know it is a difficult concept for you to understand as you use your brain mind exclusively. Reality will be present when you cease all thoughts. There is a reality represented by the concept of body, and there is a reality represented by the concept of spirit. The body reality we can experience easily, the spiritual is not of the brain and physical senses and one needs to do some efficacious spiritual practice in order to realize it.

Your psychology studies are of this world's reality, the 5% part, proper religious practice will provide realization of reality beyond the physical.

As I stated earlier, your perception of reality is presently limited to dualistic conceptualization, actual reality in non-dual. that is why it is necessary to cease all thought, to stop conceptualizing and deal with reality as it is.

Here is a famous zen saying to help people understand that the mind's conceptualization of reality is not reality.

"When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger" The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to realize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment.

As I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real.

Or to put it another way - to see the moon, look up at the sky, not down at the water.

 

[PureX]

Are you suggesting that people who work at a food kitchen to help all people is not significantly different than Christian members of the KKK who terrorize black people, and have even murdered them?

To my mind "anything goes" is when an ideology doesn't offer a concise moral framework that inhibits adherents from doing criminal acts against other people. Feel free to explain how the KKK is getting Christianity correct, and not them justifying their acts via the Bible.

There is no "concise framework" that will stop humans from being human. There is an ideology in Christianity that will help humans be better humans, IF THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW IT. But humans being what they are, many will not choose to follow it even as they claim they are following it. And you will find this same confused hypocrisy showing up in ANY area of human engagement: politics, commerce, sexuality, sociology, and even science. But the fact that we humans will choose to ignore an ethical imperative even as we claim we are not ignoring it does not mean the ethical imperative doesn't exist, or that it is ineffectual. Because many do see the value in it and do choose to follow it. You just keep choosing to ignore them.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What if one believes in reality? Then their belief and reality are the same. However, group thinking can change.

My point is that belief implies thought, reality otoh exists independently of the thought. Belief in reality and reality itself are not the same. This is where it gets difficult because I am using concepts to explain that concepts are not that which they are meant to represent, they are like sign posts that cause the mind to think of that which the concept 'points to'/represents. If you do not get what I'm trying to explain, please do enquire further.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Why would we have expected otherwise? Whatever made us assume that faith should be a 'one-size-fits-all" proposition in the first place? .

There is no "concise framework" that will stop humans from being human. There is an ideology in Christianity that will help humans be better humans, IF THEY CHOOSE TO FOLLOW IT.

What strengthens faith the most, so that you can do these things? Does the world's framework matter, that you live in? Will you exhibit more devotion in a society with a framework that builds a 'better' one, or is that incorrect?

 

[sojourner]

You never heard of Greek fraternities? For example, Delta Delta Delta is a well known sorority (and in some instances a fraternity). Some say that sororities are brotherhoods of women.

What on earth do college fraternities, designated by Greek letters, have to do with white supremacy or the Orthodox faith???

 

[PureX]

What strengthens faith the most, so that you can do these things? Does the world's framework matter, that you live in? Will you exhibit more devotion in a society with a framework that builds a 'better' one, or is that incorrect?

Humans are human regardless of their social frameworks. The better social structures will be those that take this into account and seek to mitigate our more destructive inclinations. But none will ever fully succeed. In the end we all have to choose which inclinations and hopes we will seek to fulfill based on faith, or on our lack of it.

 

[Clara Tea]

I may be wrong, but in identifying the 'axis mundi' of the general Christian faith, through having read many books and spent many years on forums, it seems to all come down to a core tenet of 'faith in Jesus,' when we try to arrive at something 'indisputable.' The act/state of faith, as far as I can tell, seems to be the most important to you. As well, it's also what mother told me as a kid, when I inquired what was most important

That is not what I am trying to debate, therefore. Though, if you take issue with this, could you please provide a short list of what you think is most important in the faith, so that I can see where 'faith' stands in it

My question considers the individual act/state of faith in Jesus (or whatever you think is most important) as superseding whatever else you believe, in importance, about your religion. And therefore granting you the redemption you want, in spite of anything else you might believe about anything else in the bible

For I have noticed that Christians will quickly get extremely creative with the whole corpus, while some notion of 'sola fide' remains quite constant. But in the next post, you might suddenly apply your own hermeneutics to a random verse in the book of revelation, for example, and describe an 'important' takeaway that I or no one else had ever heard of.

And you will be rather 'insistent,' though the oft random verses you prescribe great relevance to, might be in distant orbit, from that which you might all in common, call essential

So therefore, how creative can you get with the bible, while still revolving it around a solid faith in Jesus? Developing forms Christianity might have pruned out much of this, (the gnostic works getting canned etc.) but it is clear that any modern person who applies thought to the bible, and describes what they think, seems in reality unable not to apply subjective content to it, and to it add their own creativity

How much of that can you actually do. What if a person had the greatest faith in Jesus, and believed that they were saved, but believed Paul was the devil? Or that the book of revelation should be removed, or had just a touch of gnosticism in their other beliefs, or paganism?

And I would argue that anyone, any believer, who bothers to say anything at all about their Christianity, anything whatsoever besides what is literally written in the text, then says what they think about it in an inevitably altered way, even if subtly. And so adds to it

How creative can you get, while still setting all the other of your beliefs around the central core, which is faith in Jesus, as being the most redemptive and immutable in all of that? And if that is what you really think, then does it really matter at all, regarding anything you believe besides that?

Nazis changed every Christian belief, and still called themselves good Christians.

Robert Clary (played Corporal LeBeau on Hogan's Heroes) was actually a French Jew who spent the war in a Nazi concentration camp. On Wikipedia, they have a statement from Clary about spending 8 days without food with the other prisoners. Also, he had heard that they had an imitation shower that sprayed deadly Xylon gas (manufactured by Messer Gresham, a company recently very instrumental in chemical warfare for the United States in Iraq) to exterminate Jews. The Nazis had forced many Jews (including Clary) to spend the night in the showers.

It's scary to think that a whole nation of Christians could suddenly stray so far from the teachings of Jesus and the bible (that is, the teachings of God).

 

[Clara Tea]

What on earth do college fraternities, designated by Greek letters, have to do with white supremacy or the Orthodox faith???

KKK a Greek fraternity? They support each other. They all wear crosses and are devout Christians. They lynch Black people, or wrap them in chains and toss them in lakes and rivers.

As part of the religion of hate, they do their part as a brotherhood (like a fraternity....but one that hates Jews, Blacks, Gays, etc).

 

[Clara Tea]

I recall thinking this in a previous interaction between us too: we likely do not share any similar frames of linguistic reference, for I really do struggle a bit to understand what it is you try to communicate.

But I would nonetheless say that what those of (different) Christian faith share, is that they all wish to follow the example of Christ - thereof the term “Christianity”.

Do they have different rituals? Yes
Do their interpretations of “what Christ would do” vary? Slightly, I’m sure*
Does this matter to them? No
Do they have faith in their particular interpretations of “what Christ would” do? Yes
Are they saying that no one else behaves Christlike in situations? No

*)Though aspects of attentiveness, selflessness, humility towards and service to others are inevitably addressed.

Each frame communicates differently. Currently, some people can't communicate because of a difference of frames. But, if you traded frames, they would have your frame and you would have theirs. You still wouldn't be able to communicate (because different frames), but at least it would be more equal.

 

[Clara Tea]

Let’s rephrase that. It’s a serious flaw in Protestant, Independent, Evangelical theology. The historic and creedal church: RCC, Orthodox, and Anglican (and, to an extent, Lutheran churches), have no such concept as “anything goes.” Their various doctrines are well-presented, adherents are expected to live them out, and are held accountable to ecclesiastical authority for their actions.

Many churches allow anything to go as long as it is within the framework of religion.

For example, puritans had to work constantly (idle hands are the tools of the devil). But they had the choice of milking the cow, then grinding the wheat, or grinding the wheat then milking the cow. Complete freedom, see.

 

[Clara Tea]

If that's what you think, then that's fine, but I feel like there is some deconstruction occurring there, and 'faith' is parsed, where one intuits it is most powerful in the form of a unified 'state.' In other words, there is a kind of faith where the follower is not called to understand the 'what' and 'how.' If you ask someone to start understanding what they have faith in, rather than merely to have faith that it happened, the one starts to look at the mechanics of a thing, and the 'whole' would then necessary escape one's total view



How familiar are you with the development of early christianity? There actually were movements that may have declared Paul a heretic, though I don't know if they would say he was Satan out-rightly. The Ebionites didn't care for him, apparently. Even in the bible, James conflicts with Paul over works vs. faith. I heard Martin Luther wanted to remove the book of James. However, one could envision a 'Protestant reformation' that could just have easily have backed the cause of 'works over faith'

Maybe we could convert faith to currency (instead of the bartering that it appears to be today to barter one's way into heaven)?

So, we could sell our faith to others, and buy faith from others.

One rich person (or cheat) might be able to corner the market on faith and be the only one able to go to heaven?

 

[Clara Tea]

You ask did God destroy Christ itself in nature,?

No.

As anti God does not exist. O earth the entity creator.

Christ came arose out of O gods earth owned stone body by erection of stone a mountain volcano.

Scientists knew.

Stone existed first. Christ was not Christ first. Space history causes cold clear gas.

You lied.

Why science caused it as you lied about natural history. By all purposes false theism.

Reason. You knowingly live in a cooled atmosphere so you knew. You chose science converting anyway so of course you caused an unnatural event yourself.

As Christ first was hot not cooled.

An asteroid owned ice in space the moon. Oceans reasoned.

Earth also owned water already itself. Not in an alight atmosphere.

Water existed in the great deep dark of space first said a theist. It wasn't alight.

Earth maintains balances so when underground mass shifts empty tunnels fill with water like a ship.

Was the science earth stone ark planet wisdom. Why he said oceans don't rise to the depth he worries about. Underground cities.

Earth keeps its volcanoes sealed by water flow into earths tunnels that forces the opened seals to shut.

It however doesn't stop cities from plate drop plunging into the sea. As you caused that event before. Plates changing. Know you did as you explore by knowledge the effects of the past science choices.

"You ask did God destroy Christ itself in nature,?"

No, I didn't ask that. You asked that. But it would be easy for you to answer since it was your question in the first place. I think that they call that a strawman argument (you ask and answer the question).

 

[Neuropteron]

Or maybe I don't make sense. I have an unusual sort of mind, and I don't fully know myself, whether this be an aid or hinderence. Your comment is appreciated

Hi,

 

[Neuropteron]

And, yet, there are artists who say that their inspiration comes from God or Christ.

Hi,
Sure why not.
1 Tim 2:4 "whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth"

artist' are on the top of my list.

 

[Clara Tea]

But the reality represented by God is not just material, the material part of the universe according to science is only 5%, the remaining 95% is unobservable. Ancients have been talking about an omnipresent essence forever.

No, I don't do belief, reality is not belief, never will be. Reality is beyond concepts, it is on the other side. I know it is a difficult concept for you to understand as you use your brain mind exclusively. Reality will be present when you cease all thoughts. There is a reality represented by the concept of body, and there is a reality represented by the concept of spirit. The body reality we can experience easily, the spiritual is not of the brain and physical senses and one needs to do some efficacious spiritual practice in order to realize it.

Your psychology studies are of this world's reality, the 5% part, proper religious practice will provide realization of reality beyond the physical.

As I stated earlier, your perception of reality is presently limited to dualistic conceptualization, actual reality in non-dual. that is why it is necessary to cease all thought, to stop conceptualizing and deal with reality as it is.

Here is a famous zen saying to help people understand that the mind's conceptualization of reality is not reality.

"When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger" The finger represents conceptual explanation of reality, the moon represents actual reality. Or in the purely religious context...the finger represents the conceptual teaching to realize enlightenment, the moon represents enlightenment.

As I keep saying, the real is forever on the other side of the concept of the real.

50% of people who use statistics use them correctly.

The remaining 75% don't.

"Reality will be present when you cease all thoughts." Finally....something I'm good at.

Perhaps God is infinite, and we're just outside of infinity watching Him?

"Your psychology studies are of this world's reality, the 5% part, proper religious practice will provide realization of reality beyond the physical." I think that I also have studies that are not a part of reality. In fact, my non-real qualifications outweigh my real qualifications.

As Mark Twain once said, we talk about the things that we did, and the things that we never did. Then, as we age, we forget the things that we did, and only remember the things that we never did.

"When a wise man points at the moon the foolish man examines the finger" Well, that depends on which finger. If it is a non-real finger, then it can point to a non-real object.