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Featured How many beliefs can you change in Christianity, if you still have 'total faith' in Jesus

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ideogenous_mover, Jan 24, 2022.

  1. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong, but in identifying the 'axis mundi' of the general Christian faith, through having read many books and spent many years on forums, it seems to all come down to a core tenet of 'faith in Jesus,' when we try to arrive at something 'indisputable.' The act/state of faith, as far as I can tell, seems to be the most important to you. As well, it's also what mother told me as a kid, when I inquired what was most important

    That is not what I am trying to debate, therefore. Though, if you take issue with this, could you please provide a short list of what you think is most important in the faith, so that I can see where 'faith' stands in it

    My question considers the individual act/state of faith in Jesus (or whatever you think is most important) as superseding whatever else you believe, in importance, about your religion. And therefore granting you the redemption you want, in spite of anything else you might believe about anything else in the bible

    For I have noticed that Christians will quickly get extremely creative with the whole corpus, while some notion of 'sola fide' remains quite constant. But in the next post, you might suddenly apply your own hermeneutics to a random verse in the book of revelation, for example, and describe an 'important' takeaway that I or no one else had ever heard of.

    And you will be rather 'insistent,' though the oft random verses you prescribe great relevance to, might be in distant orbit, from that which you might all in common, call essential

    So therefore, how creative can you get with the bible, while still revolving it around a solid faith in Jesus? Developing forms Christianity might have pruned out much of this, (the gnostic works getting canned etc.) but it is clear that any modern person who applies thought to the bible, and describes what they think, seems in reality unable not to apply subjective content to it, and to it add their own creativity

    How much of that can you actually do. What if a person had the greatest faith in Jesus, and believed that they were saved, but believed Paul was the devil? Or that the book of revelation should be removed, or had just a touch of gnosticism in their other beliefs, or paganism?

    And I would argue that anyone, any believer, who bothers to say anything at all about their Christianity, anything whatsoever besides what is literally written in the text, then says what they think about it in an inevitably altered way, even if subtly. And so adds to it

    How creative can you get, while still setting all the other of your beliefs around the central core, which is faith in Jesus, as being the most redemptive and immutable in all of that? And if that is what you really think, then does it really matter at all, regarding anything you believe besides that?
     
    #1 ideogenous_mover, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  2. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Dear ideogenous,

    The most fundamental part in Christian faith is that of [faith in] Christ as the ultimate ideal of how to live. One asks, what would Christ do here? And then, one tries as best one can to do that.

    All else is secondary.


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
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  3. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Or merely, faith in Christ, firstly, with the interpreted ideal shortly to follow, but importantly, to still be fundamentally separate from the 'faith in Christ' core, below it all. You can see it how you want, and I respect whatever that way of seeing it is, but it seems like the 'secondary' part would entail everything after mere faith in Christ, steeply leading to great varieties of ideas. Because there are seemingly infinite ways you can interpret what the ideals are, and decide how you should act on them. History shows that
     
  4. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

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    If you love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself, then you you are closer to Jesus than all the Christian denominations put together for they have all fallen short. You do not need approval from mere mortals as to how you express your love of God, just do it.
     
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  5. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Yes, there are great varieties. But one has faith in the interpretations one follows.

    Humbly
    Hermit
     
  6. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    Who me? I tend to be a little more 'conditional' about most of that sort of thing. I ask questions about why things happen the way they do, and don't give out 'love' to people who might roll on me. Plus, already, you have mentioned there a whole series of symbolic items that continue to elude people, when we are trying to figure out what they really are

    I think that sorts of the way the religion was designed. It combined together a copious number of mysterious concepts, and that gives it the momentum to be passed on for generations. What is god, what is love, who is your 'neighbor,' what is the mind and soul etc.? All that and a lot more. Talking about those concepts is an act of philosophical creativity. Useful I suppose, in that it makes you think
     
    #6 ideogenous_mover, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  7. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

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    The truth is no one can love their fellow man so long as they are not in love with God, for it is the God within that does the loving. You, me, and our neighbors are all expressions of the one God, only when we identify with that inner common denominator is there genuine love of our fellow man. Iow, God loves his expressions, even the less achievers. Love is selfish, God loves you because you are His expression, when you understand this, you love God because at the inner level, you realize God is your source, God is you. Jesus said the Father and I are one. So it must be if you are able to love your neighbor as yourself, This is Christianity.
     
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  8. ideogenous_mover

    ideogenous_mover Well-Known Member

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    So, I never really had the goal of 'loving' god, and that is extremely abstract to me: the idea that 'love,' whatever that really is, can send its energies to connect with the metaphysical unknown.

    Then understanding that god is 'within,' is another abstract area, another example of something that maybe 'sounds good,' but quickly becomes another mystery box concept. The body alone, is a great and weird mystery, subtracting anything you might add to it

    I like the idea of respect more than love, when it comes to the human community. Respect means boundaries, which we all know, in a multiplicity of ways, are extremely important for human operations to continue. Love seems more important as something that might be shared in a far more restricted way, say between a husband and wife, if they are lucky. Of course that is hardly talked about in the gospels

    I mean what you wrote sounds nice, but it's just another example, a perfect example really, of the sort of 'mystery box concept shuffling' that this religion has brought down to us, through a long history. I think it's commendable in the sense that, we still haven't decided what it means, with its plethora of terms
     
    #8 ideogenous_mover, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  9. ben d

    ben d Dhyani

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    I understand your position and appreciate your attempt to understand mine. Mine is a very subtle understanding of reality, it is based on non-duality. My comments are generally brief because I understand reality is not conceptual, it exists on the other side of conceptuality. When I speak of love, I mean the actual reality, not someone's definition. If someone has not experienced love, they can't possibly know what it is. The same thing for the concept of God, or Nirvana, or Tao, it is the reality that these terms represent that needs to be experienced directly, not to talk about it, Talking about God forever will not bring you one iota nearer, forget yourself and God is directly present. When there is a you, then there is no God, except the concept in your mind, when there is God, there is no you and no concept of you.
    I don't expect you to grasp this immediately, but that is ok, it takes much contemplation to transcend the dualist mind's conceptualization of reality, to realize it without thought!
     
  10. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    What in Jesus' teaching is not common folk
    wisdom of cultures wotldwide?
     
  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Christian Love is selfish, is it?
    Thats a shame.
    In our culture its the opposite.
     
  12. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Well-Known Member

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    Faith in Christ involves belief in Jesus as the Son of God and belief in his death and physical resurrection . In Christianity, belief of Jesus as come in human flesh is essential as well as the bodily resurrection. If someone has great faith in Christ, and understands what Paul taught, I don't see how that one could possibly view Paul in that way. It sounds like a contradiction to me.
     
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  13. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    As noted elsewhere, pauls phony snake story
    make me view him askance.
     
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  14. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    The sacred writers of Christian Scripture certainly present a solid faith in Jesus, and that's where creativity in telling the story of Jesus begins. Christians believe in God as he comes to us in Jesus. The challenge is to adapt understanding Scripture to apply faithfully in the world we live in today.
     
  15. Hermit Philosopher

    Hermit Philosopher Selflessly here for you

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    Dear Audie,

    While Christians believe that there is a uniqueness to Christ’s approach, I’m not sure what relevance it has to my comment.

    If I admire my mother for how she acts towards others and therefore try my best to act as I believe she would, I’m not saying that no one else acts like my mother, am I…?

    Or were you more after a list of examples of Christlike approaches…?


    Humbly
    Hermit
     
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  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I was commenting on the "Christian faith.. ultimate ideal",
    which is, imo, unsupported by anything but assertions.

    Theres nothing unique to it.

    That being the case, if all else is secondary,
    theres not much there.
     
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  17. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Why would we have expected otherwise? Whatever made us assume that faith should be a 'one-size-fits-all" proposition in the first place? WE are not a 'one-size-fits-all' population of beings. So how we engage in something as esoteric as "faith in Jesus/Christ" is not going to be either.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Of what do you feel informed,
    Psalm23?
     
  19. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Well-Known Member

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    What I was thinking was contradicting is if someone believes what Paul wrote about Jesus , it doesn't make sense how the same person could view Paul as evil. Thinking over it though it could be that a person doesn't trust his character but believes he was right about Jesus.
     
  20. Psalm23

    Psalm23 Well-Known Member

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    Of what you believe concerning Paul's story.
     
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