If God existed would there be proof?

[muhammad_isa]

Do you think there were no "usurious transactions" prior to the industrial revolution?

Yes, but nowhere near on the same scale.

It sounds to me like you're saying that greed is actually the problem here

Quite.

And that would solve the climate crisis, how?

If wealth was distributed more equitably, the ecological balance would be restored.
One only has to consider how most of the emissions are generated by the wealthy few to realise this.

"small is beautiful" .. conservative with a small "c"

 

[SkepticThinker]

Generally speaking, organizations tend to neither be moral nor immoral, but people in such organizations may be either, including at the top. For example, is the United States moral or immoral?

BTW, I am in no way defending the atrocities committed by all too many within the Church, including some popes and bishops.

When I speak of the Catholic Church hiding pedophiles, I'm speaking of the cardinals, bishops, Popes, etc. (the "higher-ups," if you will) who were/are directly complicit in moving around and hiding those pedophiles from receiving proper justice for their actions.

I'm not speaking of it's parishioners, though I think they should probably re-evaluate their membership in a Church that does such things.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes, but nowhere near on the same scale.


Quite.


If wealth was distributed more equitably, the ecological balance would be restored.
One only has to consider how most of the emissions are generated by the wealthy few to realise this.

"small is beautiful" .. conservative with a small "c"

Well sure, wealth would be distributed more equitably, but we'd still have factories pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

 

[metis]

When I speak of the Catholic Church hiding pedophiles, I'm speaking of the cardinals, bishops, Popes, etc. (the "higher-ups," if you will) who were/are directly complicit in moving around and hiding those pedophiles from receiving proper justice for their actions.

But again, that varies. Pope JPII did a terrible job stopping this, whereas PF has condemned those that did this and has put in sweeping reforms to stop it. So, why pretend those two sets of actions are the same whereas they obviously aren't.

Let me give another example: is your family moral or immoral? In anthropology, we commonly refer to the family as being "the society in miniature". So, which is your family?

I'm not speaking of it's parishioners, though I think they should probably re-evaluate their membership in a Church that does such things.

Trust me, we definitely did that!

There are a great many of procedures that are now in place, and they are mandatory at all levels in the Church. Unfortunately, we cannot undo that which was done, but neither should we stereotype any organization, including your own family.

 

[Kfox]

Mainly personal experience interacting with others but also some general psychology and philosophic considerations.
Its a hypothesis...

Of the 7.5 billion people worldwide, what percentage would you say you've had personal experiences interacting with?

 

[Kfox]

If wealth was distributed more equitably, the ecological balance would be restored.

But where wealth is distributed more equally, it usually results in everybody being poorer

One only has to consider how most of the emissions are generated by the wealthy few to realise this."

No, most emissions are generated when the masses enjoy a higher standard of living as opposed to everybody being poor.

 

[SkepticThinker]

But again, that varies. Pope JPII did a terrible job stopping this, whereas PF has condemned those that did this and has put in sweeping reforms to stop it. So, why pretend those two sets of actions are the same whereas they obviously aren't.

I see your point but I also feel like if this were any other organization, like say, a daycare centre or a school or something, it would have been shut down (or massively re-organized and restructured, at the very least) and the leaders involved brought to criminal justice. I don't think "The Church" should be getting a special pass on this, especially in light of the behaviour of those involved. I mean, we're talking about one of the most serious crimes on the planet, against children no less.

Let me give another example: is your family moral or immoral? In anthropology, we commonly refer to the family as being "the society in miniature". So, which is your family?

None of us protects pedophiles, I can tell you that.

But, point taken. I get it.

Trust me, we definitely did that!

Excellent
I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of Catholic parishioners aren't in favour of child abuse and find it as disgusting as anyone else.

There are a great many of procedures that are now in place, and they are mandatory at all levels in the Church. Unfortunately, we cannot undo that which was done, but neither should we stereotype any organization, including your own family.

Well, that's good to know.

I'm not trying to stereotype anyone here. I'm trying to hold accountable those who do terrible things to children, and those who protect them. Especially those claiming to be morally superior to people who don't harm children and cover it up. Sorry but I don't think the leaders of the Catholic Church should be dictating anything about morality to anyone, at least and until they clean up their own backyard. The Catholic Church has quite a giant mess back there.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Well sure, wealth would be distributed more equitably, but we'd still have factories pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

I totally agree that the situation cannot be reversed in a jiffy.
However, it can't be reversed AT ALL if nothing is done about the financial system.

Believing that new tech. is solely the answer, is not realistic.
..but then it doesn't surprise me that mankind dreams that they can have their cake and eat it.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, most emissions are generated when the masses enjoy a higher standard of living as opposed to everybody being poor.

I think you''ll find that "being poor" is a concept which is relative to being well-off.

I really can't see how destroying the planet through consumerism is advantageous for "the masses".
You are showing the classic signs of denial. You think you can solve the climate crisis and carry on living in relative luxury .. you can't.

Anyhow, climate-change is only one facet of serious global imbalance.
As most people think like you, all sorts of calamities are heading our way.
It's much like the Bible stories of old. People didn't heed warnings, and the consequences were dire.

 

[Kfox]

II really can't see how destroying the planet through consumerism is advantageous for "the masses".

I never said it was. I said when the masses enjoy a higher standard of living, that is what causes an increase in emissions; unlike what you said that it is only generated by the rich

 

[setarcos]

But not necessarily "imminent". After all, there was a prediction that Jesus would return "in this generation" back almost 2000 years ago, but that didn't happen. Jesus said only the Father knew when the end of times would be.

imminent was a strong word to use here...Just my personal feeling in observing the world these days.
Wars...rumors of wars...constantly. Check
Lovers of self. Check
Increase of morality made "relative". Check
Increase of hatred for each other. Check
What was once considered abnormal...made normal. Check
Exponential increase in knowledge, ironically making everyone stupider. Check
Increasing abuse of the world we were given charge over. Check
Lies made to be truth and truth made to be lies. Check
Check, check, check, its not looking good. I keep checking.

 

[metis]

I see your point....

Thanks for your response, and I generally agree, but let me add something that may explain where I'm coming from and why, even though I'm reluctant to do this because if may come off as bragging.

My wife & I donate foodstuffs and other items regularly at church, and then I work with 20-30 others twice a year to help local families in need.
Our fellow parishioners donate an entire truckload of clothing once a year, some of which goes to an inner-city parish and the rest to a parish in Appalachia.

My wife has done charity work helping those with depression through our church, especially dealing with a loss of a loved one. We contribute to "Catholic Charities of S.E. Michigan" monthly, which helps pay for 5 soup kitchens in Detroit even though most of the clientele aren't Catholic, and it does more than that. And there's a lot more, but I'll stop.

Now some might say "But couldn't one do that through other agencies?", and my answer is we probably would do some, but we know we can do a lot through where we're at especially since it's so convenient.

My point is that the Church, whether it be local or international, shouldn't be labeled in broad terms whether those labels be good or bad. We're a mixture, hopefully working on improving.

Take care.

 

[metis]

imminent was a strong word to use here...Just my personal feeling in observing the world these days.
Wars...rumors of wars...constantly. Check
Lovers of self. Check
Increase of morality made "relative". Check
Increase of hatred for each other. Check
What was once considered abnormal...made normal. Check
Exponential increase in knowledge, ironically making everyone stupider. Check
Increasing abuse of the world we were given charge over. Check
Lies made to be truth and truth made to be lies. Check
Check, check, check, its not looking good. I keep checking.

Each generation tends to feel the same, and yet we're still here almost 2000 years after those words were uttered.

So, my point is that when and if it happens, I'm prepared.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thanks for your response, and I generally agree, but let me add something that may explain where I'm coming from and why, even though I'm reluctant to do this because if may come off as bragging.

My wife & I donate foodstuffs and other items regularly at church, and then I work with 20-30 others twice a year to help local families in need.
Our fellow parishioners donate an entire truckload of clothing once a year, some of which goes to an inner-city parish and the rest to a parish in Appalachia.

My wife has done charity work helping those with depression through our church, especially dealing with a loss of a loved one. We contribute to "Catholic Charities of S.E. Michigan" monthly, which helps pay for 5 soup kitchens in Detroit even though most of the clientele aren't Catholic, and it does more than that. And there's a lot more, but I'll stop.

Now some might say "But couldn't one do that through other agencies?", and my answer is we probably would do some, but we know we can do a lot through where we're at especially since it's so convenient.

My point is that the Church, whether it be local or international, shouldn't be labeled in broad terms whether those labels be good or bad. We're a mixture, hopefully working on improving.

Take care.

This is why I make a point to separate the leaders from the parishioners.

The parishioners are made up of really good, caring people like you and your wife, for the most part, and I recognize that. The stuff that you and you wife contribute to your community is admirable and commendable.

Have a great weekend!

 

[metis]

This is why I make a point to separate the leaders from the parishioners.

The parishioners are made up of really good, caring people like you and your wife, for the most part, and I recognize that. The stuff that you and you wife contribute to your community is admirable and commendable.

Have a great weekend!

Same to you, and thanks.

 

[night912]

Is that a threat?

No, I'm just telling you the reality. Religious wars don't have its effectiveness like how it was in the past. Although it has plenty of room for improvement, the world's population is not as ignorant as it was in the past.

..so you choose the "greed and enmity" route..
Why am I not surprised?

Strawman. Why am I not surprised.

I am not personally trying to destroy mankind. It is a consequence of our own greed.
G-d warns us in the Qur'an about usury, and some listen and some don't.

Perhaps not, but you are willing to let mankind be destroyed for your own selfishness. And let's not forget that you've demonstrated in this thread. You're willing to push your religious beliefs on to others, even through the use of deception whenever the opportunity arises.

We have this scenario throughout history.
Jesus was denied by the 'sanhedrin' due to argument over money and authority.
It is not hard to see why mankind becomes violent in their love of wealth.

It's even easier to see that that has nothing to do with climate change.

Greed encourages envy, and results in ignorant behaviour.
Why should some nations feel that are entitled to so much more than others?
Do they feel that they are somehow superior by coveting wealth, and insisting on monetary reward for helping others?

Yep, ignorant behaviour such as believing that religion is the solution to climate change.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I never said it was. I said when the masses enjoy a higher standard of living, that is what causes an increase in emissions; unlike what you said that it is only generated by the rich

Hmmph.
All you are doing is trying to deflect the underlying cause of climate-change, by claiming it is everybody [ the masses ] who is responsible for emissions, and so usury plays no part.

The world's wealthiest 10% were responsible for around half of global emissions in 2015, according to a 2020 report from Oxfam and the Stockholm Environment Institute.

Researchers found that the richer people became, the more energy they typically use. And it was replicated across all countries.
Climate change: The rich are to blame, international study finds

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yep, ignorant behaviour such as believing that religion is the solution to climate change.

Ah .. another denier, I see.
See the previous post #677

 

[night912]

Believing that new tech. is solely the answer, is not realistic.
..but then it doesn't surprise me that mankind dreams that they can have their cake and eat it.

But believing that we should go back to using only old tech, is one of the worst ideas even for a fantasy. But doesn't surprise me when that idea is coming from people who blames mankind for all the bad things that happened throughout history but for all the achievements done by mankind, credit is given to religion.

One cannot find the answer to solving problems in this world if one only look in their fantasy world for the answers to solve problems of that world.

 

[ppp]

imminent was a strong word to use here...Just my personal feeling in observing the world these days.
Wars...rumors of wars...constantly. Check
Lovers of self. Check
Increase of morality made "relative". Check
Increase of hatred for each other. Check
What was once considered abnormal...made normal. Check
Exponential increase in knowledge, ironically making everyone stupider. Check
Increasing abuse of the world we were given charge over. Check
Lies made to be truth and truth made to be lies. Check
Check, check, check, its not looking good. I keep checking.

• Wars...rumors of wars...constantly. Check - trivial prediction. could rightfully substitute 'farts' for 'wars'
• Lovers of self. Check - trivial prediction.
• Increase of morality made "relative". Check - citation needed
• Increase of hatred for each other. Check - how are you measuring this? the news?
• What was once considered abnormal...made normal. Check - trivial prediction.
• Exponential increase in knowledge, ironically making everyone stupider. Check - How is this not a '"Back in my day..."?
• Increasing abuse of the world we were given charge over. Check - trivial prediction.
• Lies made to be truth and truth made to be lies. Check - trivial prediction.
• Check, check, check, its not looking good. I keep checking. - needs more rigor