One God

[MyM]

Because, after God had set the parameters in Genesis 1, the only way He could legally operate in the world to redeem the world was to come as a man. His love was so great, He was willing to be servant of all.

The problem that we as human have is our definitions of "death". We generally have a perspective of finality yet it is only our body that dies. As such, we really don't die, we simply put off our earth suit.

The first word "die" in Hebrew is actually a plural word.

But what you are saying is that God lacks the ability to understand His own creation. That He must die for His own creation....To me, that is really underestimating the most powerful being known to mankind. Imagine God saying, ok, I'm going to kill myself so the people I created will be free of sin. God to me doesn't work like that. He created mankind to worship Him. He created mankind and he doesn't need our weak human nature so much...he can simply create new people and be done with it. People should not place their stature on the higher plain above God. It's not like we are worth it...I mean, look in the old testament how his wrath was! Yet, Paul's message-not Jesus'-to mankind is to do away with it all..someone who was not even present during the lifetime of Jesus. Yet Jesus himself does not claim to be God and says just the opposite of that of Paul in the Bible.

 

[MyM]

A love and a unity-of-one language.

When I say "my body", I have a distinct individuality of my person in mind. When I think of my spirit, it is another distinct individuality of my person in mind. In order of importance, my spirit person is more important than my body person yet without my body person, I would not be here. My soul is my other person... it remains in between the other two.

Candy, a friend of mine, was born without an eardrum or an ear. It was covered by her hair. Many doctors had reviewed her case and said nothing could be done since she had no eardrum.

One day she went up for prayer... electricity was in the air (so to speak). My soul was saying, "this is impossible" yet my spirit person said "you are about to see a miracle". After prayer she said and could prove she could hear.

For confirmation sake, the church I was going to sent her to the doctor. Doctors confirmed that she had an eardrum and all they had to do was open the skin for better hearing.

Two parts of my person talking to each other. Three parts of my person yet one.

You cannot compare a part of one's anatomy to explain the trinity. If God put it out there he would have made it clear. The bible does say that God is not the author of confusion.

You have three distinct people in mind with the trinity...am sure your inner parts of your ear do not profess to be God do they? analogies analogies but no one ever explains it because it just can't be made sense of. You are only adhering to what you have been taught or born into. Where is the logic of a 3-Godhead religion? Saying that God doesn't understand his creation that Jesus must die because only then he will understand to redeem the world which God created-not Himself because He wasn't born yet-Jesus -so in order to understand this you must have the holy ghost. So God created man, didn't understand it and the creation he made were superior to Him so he must die for them to better understand them so they can go to the heaven that he is in instead of Hell that He created. ....Please explain this

 

[Kenny]

But what you are saying is that God lacks the ability to understand His own creation. That He must die for His own creation....To me, that is really underestimating the most powerful being known to mankind. Imagine God saying, ok, I'm going to kill myself so the people I created will be free of sin. God to me doesn't work like that. He created mankind to worship Him. He created mankind and he doesn't need our weak human nature so much...he can simply create new people and be done with it. People should not place their stature on the higher plain above God. It's not like we are worth it...I mean, look in the old testament how his wrath was! Yet, Paul's message-not Jesus'-to mankind is to do away with it all..someone who was not even present during the lifetime of Jesus. Yet Jesus himself does not claim to be God and says just the opposite of that of Paul in the Bible.

It is interesting how we want God to conform to our way of thinking as we assume our thinking is higher that His and our ways are higher than His ways.

What if we looked at this differently in the sense that we take what He says and adapt our thinking to His?

What if He DOES understand His own creation and made provision to accomplish His will?
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Apparently He knew from beforehand what His creation is capable of and had determined what He was going to do.

Jesus said,

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

If God is the God of love, then He understands that giving life for His creation is a worthwhile commitment to have eternal relationship. (I don't think He was caught be surprise of what Adam was going to do or you or I were going to do)

So, I don't adapt God to my thinking but rather adapt my thoughts to what is higher than my thoughts.

 

[Kenny]

.

You cannot compare a part of one's anatomy to explain the trinity. If God put it out there he would have made it clear. The bible does say that God is not the author of confusion.

Why can't I? I was made in His image and in His likeness.

I'm not confused... maybe confusion comes from lack of knowledge or because we aren't viewing it spiritually?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Soapy]

The trinity is man made.
Adam was human, Jesus was a miracle but yet human.

The father is one, Jesus was a creation of His, so how can a creation of the creator be God himself if he was being born and God is and always was. I don't understand why such a beautiful Creator would need to humiliate Himself in human form? How can God die? I am yet trying to understand this perspective.

Yes, it’s frustrating that there is no logical sense about the trinity since so many are convinced by it. But the truth is that you are right to not understand it because it exactly is nonsense!

One big clue to its insanity is the fact that Trinitarians cannot agree among themselves what trinity is - nor can they show scriptures claiming a trinity.

They even go to the die faculae limits of claiming that God and Jesus are two of the trinity it’s members (Do you see that absurdity?).

Example:

• Jesus is equal to God
• God sent Jesus
• Jesus and the Father are one (a trinity???!!)
• Jesus is God and Jesus died…. God died!!!
• The Father is ‘the only true God’, says Jesus. Jesus is the only true God, says the trinitarian! Therefore, the outcome is that Jesus is the Father since there is only one true God… which part does the trinitarian deny… but yet there is this:
  • ‘I and the Father are ONE’
• But the trinitarian does not declare these two as being a Binity despite the ‘[two] are one’ definition of [trinity]. Just imagine if there was a scripture verse saying: ‘I, and the Father, and the Spirit of the Father, are ONE’…. But there is no such expression in any scripture!

The Jews ask Jesus if he is greater than the patriarch, Abraham. Jesus replies, ‘Yes, I am [greater than Abraham because even Abraham saw my glorious day in vision and was glad because I, the messiah, was to come from his linage, from his loins!’. The Jews were so angry that Jesus should so declare himself as the prophesied messiah spoken of by Abraham, David, Moses, and the other prophets, that they took up stones to stone Jesus. Trinitarians say it is because Jesus declared himself as being GOD!!!! But that’s not even anything to do with the context of the argument - ‘Are you greater than Abraham?’ They asked him! So what of John the Baptist who also stated that jesus was BEFORE him… which means ‘Greater than’ (The greater is BEFORE the lesser! It’s got nothing to do with chronological timing but rather, state of greatness! John was great in spirit for God but Jesus is before him (is greater)…

You even get those saying Jesus was God because Jesus walked on water… Hey, did they read that Peter also walked on water…. Peter must be God, too (but no! Says Trinitarians….)

Oh, Jesus raised the dead… only God can do that, says the Trinitarians. Ah, do they not read that Elijah and Elisha raised the dead…. And Peter raised the dead??? Oh, that’s because God have them the power to do so, quite rightly so says the trinitarian… but not Jesus… He was God!! Oh but wait! Didn’t Jesus PRAY TO GOD for the power to raise up Lazarus….?

Yes, you are right to not understand trinity because it is a false religious belief which is unsustainable by its advocates!

 

[MyM]

UOTE="KenS, post: 7500235, member: 47847"].


Why can't I? I was made in His image and in His likeness.

I'm not confused... maybe confusion comes from lack of knowledge or because we aren't viewing it spiritually?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/QUOTE]

Again, you are not saying what Jesus said. Moses didn't even write the first 5 books in the Bible. This is a known fact. There are many contradictions from the first book Genisus onwards...the Bible contains over 4000 contradictions alone.
To claim that God made man in His image cannot be proven. To say that you are like your creator is blasphemous, for human nature is not comparable to God Almighty. Nothing is compared to Him. He is flawless, whereas humans are not. Jesus was human, he said that he himself could do nothing but only by the one who sent him. He didn't send himself. Quote me what Jesus says and stop relying on the books that Jesus himself nor God endorsed.

In the Quran Allah says:

 

[MyM]

It is interesting how we want God to conform to our way of thinking as we assume our thinking is higher that His and our ways are higher than His ways.

What if we looked at this differently in the sense that we take what He says and adapt our thinking to His?

What if He DOES understand His own creation and made provision to accomplish His will?
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Apparently He knew from beforehand what His creation is capable of and had determined what He was going to do.

Jesus said,

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

If God is the God of love, then He understands that giving life for His creation is a worthwhile commitment to have eternal relationship. (I don't think He was caught be surprise of what Adam was going to do or you or I were going to do)

So, I don't adapt God to my thinking but rather adapt my thoughts to what is higher than my thoughts.

Your thinking is still interpreting God the way you think. In Islam, God tells us exactly who He is, how he is, what He does, has done and will do. There is no need to "adapt" to any circumstance.

The Bible verses you are quoting were not endorsed by God nor by Jesus. No where throughout the entire Bible does God claim it is from Him nor does Jesus claim it is his book. There are books in the Bible from theologians, historians, words of man etc. These people were not inspired to write a book with discrepancies.

God yes, He created mankind. He knows how they think, what they believe and if they will believe. But this is by no means a purpose to die for his Creation. He has no need for it. He is above such things for he is the master of you not vice versa. Why humiliate God and think he needs to die for you in order to save you from his own creation (hell) Just doesn't make sense for someone to put a whole superior Almighty on their own level of thinking.

 

[Kenny]

The Bible verses you are quoting were not endorsed by God nor by Jesus.

Perhaps that is why we have a disconnection in sharing.

God yes, He created mankind. He knows how they think, what they believe and if they will believe. But this is by no means a purpose to die for his Creation. He has no need for i

This is an opinion that I don't subscribe to. Why did He create mankind?

 

[MyM]

Perhaps that is why we have a disconnection in sharing.



This is an opinion that I don't subscribe to. Why did He create mankind?

I used to be a born again Christian(Protestant), so I do know about the teachings of the churches, the pasters etc.

God created mankind to worship Him. He is the only one worthy of worship. He is the One and only, He is Perfect- not of need of want, does not beget nor is he begotten and nothing is comparable to Him.

 

[Kenny]

I used to be a born again Christian(Protestant), so I do know about the teachings of the churches, the pasters etc.

God created mankind to worship Him. He is the only one worthy of worship. He is the One and only, He is Perfect- not of need of want, does not beget nor is he begotten and nothing is comparable to Him.

Yes, we are to worship Him. But He created mankind to have dominion and to bring His will on earth as it is in Heaven.

Yes, there is no one comparable to Him.

 

[metis]

I don't think God would intend to confuse the people with his messages. The trinity just does not make sense to me. I don't think Jesus was "an essence" he was born a man. Not everyone knows the philosophical words you just said, nor did Jesus ever quote them. But Jesus did say that, Oh hear Oh Israel, the lord thy god is One Lord.

Again, the NT was written in Koine Greek in terms that people in the Mediterranean region would understand if they had any academic background, thus the concept of "essence" would be largely understood by them.

It is clearly obvious that they and we are dealing with one God, not three, so don't you think the more than 1000 bishops at Nicaea would know that? Do you really think they were ignorant of what the books they were judging for the canon clearly were saying?

 

[MyM]

Again, the NT was written in Koine Greek in terms that people in the Mediterranean region would understand if they had any academic background, thus the concept of "essence" would be largely understood by them.

It is clearly obvious that they and we are dealing with one God, not three, so don't you think the more than 1000 bishops at Nicaea would know that? Do you really think they were ignorant of what the books they were judging for the canon clearly were saying?

They covered up the distortions and purposely portrayed their words as Jesus'. The Council of Nicea had no right to take it upon themselves to play God. Imagine taking a doctrine to a vote to explain what divinity is.

Again, through time man is lost. They deviate from the truth and the messages of God gets distorted and lost. People take it upon themselves to explain what God is without knowing the truth.

This is why Allah sent His final message to mankind. It encompasses all the religions and clarifies all that comes before it. Allah completed the religion, he said he will protect it and he also challenged anyone to come up with a Book (the Quran) like unto it-but he warns that no one will and they will fail.

To argue points that were made over the years, what the council believed, what the bishops believe, what laymen believe etc. is kind of mute nowadays since there are so many different "versions" of beliefs. They got what they wanted but Allah is the final judge in all matters.

And Allah knows best

 

[metis]

They covered up the distortions and purposely portrayed their words as Jesus'. The Council of Nicea had no right to take it upon themselves to play God. Imagine taking a doctrine to a vote to explain what divinity is.

Again, through time man is lost. They deviate from the truth and the messages of God gets distorted and lost. People take it upon themselves to explain what God is without knowing the truth.

This is why Allah sent His final message to mankind. It encompasses all the religions and clarifies all that comes before it. Allah completed the religion, he said he will protect it and he also challenged anyone to come up with a Book (the Quran) like unto it-but he warns that no one will and they will fail.

To argue points that were made over the years, what the council believed, what the bishops believe, what laymen believe etc. is kind of mute nowadays since there are so many different "versions" of beliefs. They got what they wanted but Allah is the final judge in all matters.

And Allah knows best

It's all fine & dandy what you may believe, but it's obvious that you have swallowed a conspiracy theory based on 0 evidence. On top of that, it is ludicrous for you to say that the Council played God as that is clearly not what they were doing.

Maybe read this: First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia Here's one short segment from that:
This synod had been charged with investigation of the trouble brought about by the Arian controversy in the Greek-speaking east.[19] To most bishops, the teachings of Arius were heretical and dangerous to the salvation of souls.[20] In the summer of 325, the bishops of all provinces were summoned to Nicaea, a place reasonably accessible to many delegates, particularly those of Asia Minor, Georgia, Armenia, Syria, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.

According to Warren H. Carroll, in the Council of Nicaea, "The Church had taken her first great step to define revealed doctrine more precisely in response to a challenge from a heretical theology."[21]

 

[Soapy]

A love and a unity-of-one language.

When I say "my body", I have a distinct individuality of my person in mind. When I think of my spirit, it is another distinct individuality of my person in mind. In order of importance, my spirit person is more important than my body person yet without my body person, I would not be here. My soul is my other person... it remains in between the other two.

Candy, a friend of mine, was born without an eardrum or an ear. It was covered by her hair. Many doctors had reviewed her case and said nothing could be done since she had no eardrum.

One day she went up for prayer... electricity was in the air (so to speak). My soul was saying, "this is impossible" yet my spirit person said "you are about to see a miracle". After prayer she said and could prove she could hear.

For confirmation sake, the church I was going to sent her to the doctor. Doctors confirmed that she had an eardrum and all they had to do was open the skin for better hearing.

Two parts of my person talking to each other. Three parts of my person yet one.

NO!!!!!

You start with a FALSE PREMISE and continue to convince your audience throughout afterwards using that false premise.

Your body is NOT another YOU!

Your Spirit is not a SEPARATE YOU!

Your body and spirit are the ONLY YOU!

The BODY OF you is the vehicle through which your SPIRIT engages in the physical world.

Your spirit cannot interact in the physical world except through the physical body that belongs to you/it.

The body cannot function without the spirit enabling it…

Your analogy of the body without an apparent ear is an example of the Spirit being unable to use the aural senses in the body it is in.

It was not ANOTHER SPIRIT of you that was speaking to you. Everyone has doubts and encouragements with themselves. So it is perfectly possible to CONVINCE yourself of something positive (Can do) … or negative (Can’t do). It’s a choice gained from FREE WILL.

And, in any case, you only depicted TWO persons of YOU! Image of God has THREE!

You see, this is how false belief is exposed!

And your false belief is blatantly exposed right here by your own words and thoughts.

So, which of the YOU’s is going to admit to the falseness of your claim?

 

[Soapy]

You cannot compare a part of one's anatomy to explain the trinity. If God put it out there he would have made it clear. The bible does say that God is not the author of confusion.

You have three distinct people in mind with the trinity...am sure your inner parts of your ear do not profess to be God do they? analogies analogies but no one ever explains it because it just can't be made sense of. You are only adhering to what you have been taught or born into. Where is the logic of a 3-Godhead religion? Saying that God doesn't understand his creation that Jesus must die because only then he will understand to redeem the world which God created-not Himself because He wasn't born yet-Jesus -so in order to understand this you must have the holy ghost. So God created man, didn't understand it and the creation he made were superior to Him so he must die for them to better understand them so they can go to the heaven that he is in instead of Hell that He created. ....Please explain this

Point of order only: No such thing as ‘Holy Ghost’.

A ‘Ghost’ is a disembodied spirit in the physical world. It was invented term to scare people in the Middle Ages because only certain people could read and understand what ‘Spirit’ meant.

So, the correct term is ‘Spirit’ (God’s Spirit, which is Holy: Hence, Holy Spirit)

And so saying, yes, God’s HOLY Spirit is not a separate PERSON to the person of the Father… because the Holy Spirit IS the Father’s Spirit.

And, despite the crude attempt by Trinitarians, the Spirit ofGod is NOT the Spirit of Christ…. That is double nonsense!

What it is meant for is that Jesus’ SPIRIT is a MIRROR of the Father’s Spirit: How the Father is, so the Son thinks and behaves the same!

Point of fact, God GAVE his Spirit (The power of his Spirit) as a GIFT to the Apostles. Should Trinitarians then not say that the apostles are ALSO GOD!

Yet they do not!

Which shows that they do know that they are wrong and try to hide it.

Jesus, himself said, ‘Wait in Jerusalem until I send you the promised GIFT from the Father’. And, indeed, they received it in the upper room on Pentecost.

This Gift was portions they power off the Holy Spirit of God according to each individual capacity to receive it. Some received greater proportions than others.

Trinitarians cannot explain much of the ideology and mostly obfuscate questions and answers so as to wriggle away … and we all know what creature wriggles!!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yay, another thread that devolved into pointless bickering about the Trinity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yet Jesus himself does not claim to be God and says just the opposite of that of Paul in the Bible.

False. The Jews knew quite well what He was saying here, and that's why they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
Bible Gateway passage: John 8:48-59 - English Standard Version

I don't really care to argue about it as it's pointless (you're a Muslim so of course you won't agree) but it annoys me when people ignore what is plainly in the Gospels.

(Picture from the Orthodox Study Bible, with the relevant footnote pointed out.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The Jews ask Jesus if he is greater than the patriarch, Abraham. Jesus replies, ‘Yes, I am [greater than Abraham because even Abraham saw my glorious day in vision and was glad because I, the messiah, was to come from his linage, from his loins!’. The Jews were so angry that Jesus should so declare himself as the prophesied messiah spoken of by Abraham, David, Moses, and the other prophets, that they took up stones to stone Jesus.

Lol, what version of the Bible are you reading? You can't even quote your own scriptures correctly. That is not what that verse said at all. Too funny. They were asking Him how He had seen Abraham, if He we're not even 50 years old. Then He replies with the famous statement "before Abraham was, I AM" (so as eternal God, He was around before Abraham existed). Why did you choose to totally make up what that passage is saying?

I guess it was destiny that I choose that verse to reply to MyM with, as you don't even know what it says, apparently. I didn't read any of your posts before replying. Honestly.

Also, there's not one example of the Jews trying to stone to death Messiah claimants, for simply believing they were the Messiah. There's been many of them throughout Jewish history, with varying levels of popularity. Usually after they totally failed to complete the prophecies, their followings dwindled and died out. No stoning happened or attempted. So you apparently made that part up, as well.

 

[MyM]

False. The Jews knew quite well what He was saying here, and that's why they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy.
"Before Abraham was, I AM."
Bible Gateway passage: John 8:48-59 - English Standard Version

I don't really care to argue about it as it's pointless (you're a Muslim so of course you won't agree) but it annoys me when people ignore what is plainly in the Gospels.

(Picture from the Orthodox Study Bible, with the relevant footnote pointed out.)

Did he say I am God? Do you not think that God knew his creation before they were even gonna be born? Do you not think that He has a plan? He did not say I AM GOD Pilot was not convinced as well but did not want to upset the Jews and he said he was not responsible for him. He even asked Jesus according to the Bible are you the king of the Jews and he said what? "You say that I am" If he were God, wouldn't it be claimed throughout the entire Bible "I AM GOD"? Why hide it! Why would God hide from his own creation if he wanted it known to the entire mankind why he came to earth? He never said in the entire Bible, I am God. Just the contrary, he said, The lord thy God is one lord, I have come only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, love the lord God (not himself), Jesus went further ahead and fell on his face and prayed....What does that signify? that he was God? Who was he praying to? Himself? He said he himself could do nothing....which by the way, all prophets of God were given revelation and guidance from THE ONE WHO SENT THEM ....Jesus did not utter those words I am God.
In Islam, we believe that all prophets and messengers were sent from God telling their people to believe in the one true God. They all taught one God.
You cannot be a muslim without believing in all the prophets of God. You must believe in His Oneness, all the prophets, the angels, the books, the fate, the hereafter. If you do not believe that God has control of all things, you cannot be a believer.

 

[MyM]

Lol, what version of the Bible are you reading? You can't even quote your own scriptures correctly. That is not what that verse said at all. Too funny. They were asking Him how He had seen Abraham, if He we're not even 50 years old. Then He replies with the famous statement "before Abraham was, I AM" (so as eternal God, He was around before Abraham existed). Why did you choose to totally make up what that passage is saying?

I guess it was destiny that I choose that verse to reply to MyM with, as you don't even know what it says, apparently. I didn't read any of your posts before replying. Honestly.

Also, there's not one example of the Jews trying to stone to death Messiah claimants, for simply believing they were the Messiah. There's been many of them throughout Jewish history, with varying levels of popularity. Usually after they totally failed to complete the prophecies, their followings dwindled and died out. No stoning happened or attempted. So you apparently made that part up, as well.

I expect you know the verses from John 8:1-59? He even calls himself the son of man. Just 1-27 is enough to testify that he is not speaking from himself. Jesus loved to speak in parables but that does not make him out to be God. He was telling them, look, if you knew who I am and the one who sent me...that is clearly meaning God the Creator and him as the messenger. He was created-all Allah has to do is say Be and it is. Jesus was a miracle given to Mary.
The bible is loaded with "sons of God" even firstborns so to say that only Jesus was the son of God is incomplete. There is even another begotten son in the Bible in the book of Psalms. : )