It Is Now Legitimate To Question Jesus's Historicity

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd be all for debate, but teaching that Jesus did not exist at an explicitly Christian teaching school would be wrong.

I guess nobody told Tom Harpur.

Tom Harpur - Wikipedia

 

[Lazy Old Devil]

I think there have long been some active priests, both Catholic and Anglican, who don't actually believe in a literal God:

Preacher: Even priests DON'T believe in god
BBC News | UK | The vicars who don't believe in God

 

[Rival]

I think there have long been some active priests, both Catholic and Anglican, who don't actually believe in a literal God:

Preacher: Even priests DON'T believe in god
BBC News | UK | The vicars who don't believe in God

Yeah, heretics.

 

[exchemist]

It would be wrong to teach that the gospels are allegory?

Traditional Christianity accepts that parts of the Old Testament can be best understood as allegorical. But the gospels are treated as historical accounts - subject to the usual imperfections of any historical account.

 

[Rival]

I happen to be one of those Christians that actually read the story for myself, that same story that was rammed down my throat week after week, year after year, the story that was brought to my ancestors at the end of a sword, so is there an appropriate time to acknowledge a change in scholarship?

You will be hard pressed to change actual Christian doctrine. You will never get Muslims to believe Muhammad didn't exist and still be orthodox Muslims. Religion doesn't work that way.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

However, I doubt it will have any effect on Christianity.
Or, do you think it will?

The question has been debated for a long time, and although I have not read everything on the subject, I think that the majority of scholars accept that Jesus lived, and was baptized, and was crucified.

For the record, as an atheist, I've read enough of those scholars to have come to accept that Jesus did indeed exist.

What I -- again as an atheist -- and many scholars do NOT accept is that Jesus was anything more than the sort of religious reformer (or zealot, or whatever you want to call them) that humans have produced throughout our entire history. And some of those, as you may have heard, were also the founders of new religions. Mohammad, for example, or Joseph Smith, or Baha'u'llah, or the Bab, or Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, David Koresh -- and the list could go on for hours.

 

[exchemist]

I think there have long been some active priests, both Catholic and Anglican, who don't actually believe in a literal God:

Preacher: Even priests DON'T believe in god
BBC News | UK | The vicars who don't believe in God

Yes, that is undoubtedly so. The Anglican church seems to have a fairly long tradition of such clergymen.

 

[Sheldon]

I'd be all for debate, but teaching that Jesus did not exist at an explicitly Christian teaching school would be wrong. It would be like promoting God belief or Christianity at secular schools.

Well do they allow such debate? Also that is precisely what Christianity has done for centuries, taught their dogma and doctrine to children in school as if it is fact, I was taught this as a child. I don't know if Jesus existed existed as an historical figure, and of course it has little relevance to my atheism, however the matter was never taught as if it was open to any legitimate doubt, and this is the UK, a pretty tolerant and free society on the whole.

 

[Lazy Old Devil]

Yeah, heretics.

Why are you bothered by this anyway? It's kind of ironic that the only person on this thread sticking up for the idea of Jesus being real has their religion listed as 'Noachide'!

 

[Rival]

Well do they allow such debate? Also that is precisely what Christianity has done for centuries, taught their dogma and doctrine to children in school as if it is fact, I was taught this as a child. I don't know if Jesus existed existed as an historical figure, and of course it has little relevance to my atheism, however the matter was never taught as if it was open to any legitimate doubt, and this is the UK, a pretty tolerant and free society on the whole.

Yes, here Christianity is pushed aside mostly now. But a seminary is literally a Christian school that trains priests. To kick Jesus out would be antithetical and stupid.

 

[clara17]

It would be wrong to teach that the gospels are allegory?

You can teach anyone who will listen, anything you like. Doesnt make it true.

 

[Rival]

Why are you bothered by this anyway? It's kind of ironic that the only person on this thread sticking up for the idea of Jesus being real has their religion listed as 'Noachide'!

Because I'm sick of everyone being able to jump on Christianity with impunity and disparage their own heritage, their own culture, their ancestors. It's like, why can't it just be given a break? It's not what it once was. In Europe Christianity as default is gone. It's done. And yet people still feel the need to bash, essentially, 2000 years of their history basically just out of spite. It saddens me. Just let the Christians have their beliefs and leave them alone.

 

[exchemist]

Why are you bothered by this anyway? It's kind of ironic that the only person on this thread sticking up for the idea of Jesus being real has their religion listed as 'Noachide'!

I don't think that is the point being made. The point, surely, is that priests and seminarians would be expected to believe in a literal God and Jesus as a historical figure. I can't see that that is controversial.

 

[Quagmire]

There are no stories where we remove the supernatural bits and call what remains historical,

Of course there are, unless you actually believe that George Washington threw a silver dollar across the Potomac, or that Daniel Boone killed a grizzly bear with his bare hands, etc., etc, . . .

Edit: or one that's more holiday appropriate:

This guy almost certainly certainly existed:
Saint Nicholas - Wikipedia

But it's pretty unlikely that he actually lives at the North Pole or rides around in a sleigh being pulled by flying reindeer.

 

[Rival]

I don't think that is the point being made. The point, surely, is that priests and seminarians would be expected to believe in a literal God and Jesus as a historical figure. I can't see that that is controversial.

 

[Lazy Old Devil]

I don't think that is the point being made. The point, surely, is that priests and seminarians would be expected to believe in a literal God and Jesus as a historical figure. I can't see that that is controversial.

Yeah, that's fair enough. I was just being a bit cheeky!

 

[clara17]

However, I doubt it will have any effect on Christianity.
Or, do you think it will?

Did this happen today? This is posted like a news headline. What did I miss.
What time did it become "legitimate?"
I was at work till 3.

 

[Secret Chief]

Well do they allow such debate? Also that is precisely what Christianity has done for centuries, taught their dogma and doctrine to children in school as if it is fact, I was taught this as a child. I don't know if Jesus existed existed as an historical figure, and of course it has little relevance to my atheism, however the matter was never taught as if it was open to any legitimate doubt, and this is the UK, a pretty tolerant and free society on the whole.

I think it just self-perpetuated uncritically. When I was at school (cough) "Religious Education" meant teaching Christianity and it was compulsory for the first 2 years of high school. At least nowadays (in the UK) there is a broader range of teaching and RE appears not to be compulsory in "mainstream" state schools.

- National curriculum

 

[clara17]

Why are you bothered by this anyway? It's kind of ironic that the only person on this thread sticking up for the idea of Jesus being real has their religion listed as 'Noachide'!

Im on the same side. Not a religious person but its pretty evident Jesus was real. It would take a pretty grand conspiracy to set up the world we live in otherwise. A conspiracy that would make very little sense.

 

[sealchan]

However, I doubt it will have any effect on Christianity.
Or, do you think it will?

I think that it is critical to the progression of Christianity out of its literalistic tendencies to question the historical of Jesus as well as the divine-only authorship of the Bible.

Christianity emerged out of various Jewish and non-Jewish ideas and perspectives and it is instructive on even a spiritual level let alone a literary and comparative mythological level to understand the biased and human qualities of the authors of the various texts.