Vaccine experience and poll

[Unveiled Artist]

Different people react differently to various situations, but hopefully you understand why most people don't just dismiss or ignore statistics from other countries when it comes to COVID. This dovetails with my response to the second part of your post:

They don't need to dismiss statistics to know whether those statistics warrant their immediate response. If it doesn't, it's not that they dismissed it (or in your context reject it), just they thought for themselves and said "hey, this doesn't apply to me."

This is in general, though. Most people are vaccinated for whatever reason-not all did so because of statistics.

I get the impression you're talking about this "side of her" as if it were something to blame her for. Why? If you believe in freedom of choice and don't want to get vaccinated for any given reason, it shouldn't be difficult to see why she also has the freedom to refuse to hang out with unvaccinated people, friends or not. Some people may not mind it (I wouldn't mind it myself unless my friend stopped observing preventive measures), but she has children and could very well not be ready to take the increased risk of transmission to her or her children that comes from hanging out with an unvaccinated person.

No. I've known her for 20 years and she's more of a logic-minded person. I haven't seen her fear anything and I never seen her cry even when we dated. Everyone reacts differently to fear and concern. I'm more fearful of immediate and personal threats to my life and others.

But I did say I understood since she has children and I don't.

Vaccines don't fully prevent transmission, but they do reduce the probability thereof. I view it as reasonable for a parent to want to avoid any extra risk even if that means not hanging out with unvaccinated friends, especially now that there are more transmissible variants of the virus circulating around. I would miss my vaccinated friends if they told me they'd rather wait until I was vaccinated to hang out with me, but I'd also understand and respect that. It's nothing personal; it's just that the virus doesn't care who is or isn't a friend when it infects someone.

True. I never blamed her for it. We just have different views on vaccination status not whether or not I may potentially infect her and her children. I'm the one that told her not to come where I live because of her feelings about unvaccinated people. We'd just have to wait until they say the pandemic is over for everyone to drop their guard.

You're free not to get vaccinated, but you're not free to impose this decision on anyone else. People are also free to choose who to hang out with based on medical consensus about probability of transmission from unvaccinated people compared to vaccinated ones.

Where have I imposed this decision on someone else?

That sounds like you're (or people I'm referring to) threatened by my decisions. I said nothing of the kind.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The latter half comment about my friend was I understand since she has children and I do not. It's hard for her to have empathy for others but inside she's a sensitive person. I don't agree I'm asymptomatic in the last three years but I can't blame her since she has children.

I also said people have freedom to take the vaccine and others hopefully will have the freedom not to without being obstracized for it. My friend and I share different opinions but we are still friends. Unvaccinated people are blamed for not being vaxed and loosing their jobs. Very different context.

I don't hound her for her choice. Long as she respects me and I her. I never seen her afraid before. I'm not blaming her. I dated her half a year and haven't even seen her cry. It's an observation.

It bothers me because talking about things that bother me sometimes I call her up and we go back and forth. With this I can't even do that.

It's much more than vaccination. You guys can see it that way in content but the context of people's lives affected not just deaths is just as contagious. Ignore it discredit it if you will but it's true.

Location depending.

- Even if she didn't have children, she would still be well within her rights to refuse to hang out with an unvaccinated person based on the level of risk she was willing to take. She has no obligation to take a risk like that just because someone else might take exception to her decision to base her actions on the medical consensus that vaccines lower (but don't eliminate altogether) the transmission rate of COVID.

- We would need to establish what "ostracism" entailed here: do you mean cutting off a friend only because they're unvaccinated? No, I generally don't agree with that either. Do you mean refusing to hang out with an unvaccinated person because you don't want the extra risk of catching the virus from them? I see no issue with that; people are entitled to their boundaries and limits. That's not ostracism; that's merely basing one's decisions on medical evidence.

- You have said that she's a logically minded person, and I think she's being reasonable based on what you've shared about her actions. She's definitely being quite cautious, but that's completely fine and even wise in this case. I wouldn't simply attribute her actions to "fear": in this situation, it's reasonable carefulness. Nothing wrong with having enough fear of a potentially severe or deadly virus to take precautions against it.

- I'm not sure I understand the last two lines of your post, so I can't respond to them without knowing what you mean.

Not dismiss just I don't use up energy worrying about what I can't control. COVID is no different.

I agree with that approach, but here's the thing: we can control some things related to the pandemic, such as what preventive measures, if any, we take. For other things that we can't control, such as viral mutations and the possibility of catching the virus even if one does their best to avoid it, I try not to spend too much energy worrying either, since that's both fruitless and exhausting.

I see someone dismissing the risk if they smoked knowing what it will do.

An unvaccinated person isn't increasing their risk of catching COVID. They're not contributing to anyone who catches it a mile away from them. So, by default, precautions don't apply unless they are say taking care of a sick loved one.

Although the risk exists for both, an unvaccinated person is indeed at increased risk of catching COVID compared to a vaccinated one:

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey Technical Article: Impact of vaccination on testing positive in the UK - Office for National Statistics

Coronavirus infections three times lower in double vaccinated people - REACT | Imperial News | Imperial College London

This by itself wouldn't matter much if the unvaccinated person knew exactly what the risks were and chose to live with them without affecting anyone else, but because viruses can mutate frequently and also infect others after infecting an unvaccinated person, the decision isn't a completely personal one in this case. It could have implications for others as well as society in general.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Can I ask. Why do you guys need boosters?

Are you going to continue to get boosters until they say you don't need it anymore or after X many boosters will you come to a conclusion you might not need every booster that comes out?

What's your opinion on needing a booster especially in the future?

- The immune response to vaccines decreases at some point, so boosters are meant to stimulate it again. This is especially the case with viruses that are particularly prone to transmission and mutation, such as the coronaviruses that cause COVID and the flu. Some information about booster shots is covered in detail here, if you wish to know more about why they're now recommended:

Understanding the science behind a vaccine booster

- It's hard to answer this question given that we don't know what the situation will be by the time another booster shot may be required. Maybe effective antiviral pills or other treatments for COVID will have come out, and maybe we'll indeed need to take seasonal vaccines for COVID similarly to the flu. What I can say for sure is that my decisions about such things will be based on scientific consensus about booster shots and their benefits versus risks (if any notable risks exist).

- My opinion on needing booster shots is that it's increasingly looking like it will be a reality for the foreseeable future, possibly for years or decades to come, due to the mutations of the virus as well as the strong possibility that COVID may become an endemic disease much like the flu. I would obviously prefer not to have to get any shots, but given the circumstances, that's the best and safest option we have for now per the consensus of medical experts.

 

[Debater Slayer]

They don't need to dismiss statistics to know whether those statistics warrant their immediate response. If it doesn't, it's not that they dismissed it (or in your context reject it), just they thought for themselves and said "hey, this doesn't apply to me."

This is in general, though. Most people are vaccinated for whatever reason-not all did so because of statistics.

The issue is when someone thinks for themselves about a highly specialized subject, like medical advice, and concludes something that contradicts the consensus of experts in the field. I would be wrong if I thought about smoking and said, "I've thought about this and decided that my lungs are healthy enough to handle smoking, so I'll keep doing it" in contrast to the overwhelming medical evidence that smoking is indeed harmful, healthy lungs or not.

True. I never blamed her for it. We just have different views on vaccination status not whether or not I may potentially infect her and her children. I'm the one that told her not to come where I live because of her feelings about unvaccinated people. We'd just have to wait until they say the pandemic is over for everyone to drop their guard.

I wish both of you good health. The last two years have been exhausting for many people, and I do hope we can drop our guards more often soon.

Where have I imposed this decision on someone else?

That sounds like you're (or people I'm referring to) threatened by my decisions. I said nothing of the kind.

I was speaking generally about the idea that someone's refusal to hang out with an unvaccinated person necessarily amounted to "ostracism" or anything of the sort. Trying to push someone to do that against their will seems to me a form of imposition.

You've clarified that you don't blame your friend for her boundary, though, so this doesn't apply to our discussion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

As a person who hesitate or until now rejected to take the covid vaccine, I am in no way shape or form saying others should follow my way. If people trust the government and health care system where they live, go ahead and get vaccinated.
In both cases, it is people like my self who must be not only careful to avoid getting the virus, but also being protected around others in case I get the virus.
So please use the mask.

I know people who dislike unvaccinated people and I respect that. But some of us has medically issue with not being able to take the current vaccine.

 

[Debater Slayer]

As a person who hesitate or until now rejected to take the covid vaccine, I am in no way shape or form saying others should follow my way. If people trust the government and health care system where they live, go ahead and get vaccinated.
In both cases, it is people like my self who must be not only careful to avoid getting the virus, but also being protected around others in case I get the virus.
So please use the mask.

I know people who dislike unvaccinated people and I respect that. But some of us has medically issue with not being able to take the current vaccine.

Since I have no health issues preventing me from getting vaccinated, I also view it as important that I do so partially because it not only reduces my own risk of severe illness or death but also reduces the risk of my infecting someone else who can't get vaccinated.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Since I have no health issues preventing me from getting vaccinated, I also view it as important that I do so partially because it not only reduces my own risk of severe illness or death but also reduces the risk of my infecting someone else who can't get vaccinated.

Then it is the right decision for you

 

[Valjean]

No, the comments are just plain insulting.

But they're true, aren't they?
How are they insulting, unless one's insulted by a statement of fact?

Jainaryan supported an individual morality, based on personal opinion, irrespective of harm to others.
Indifference to the harm one's actions may cause to others is anti-social, is it not?

 

[SA Huguenot]

I'm going to go get my first and only jab soon
How many of you already have it? How is it? I read people die for it so faking smile I'll go, I want to visit my friends again and have fun everyday again

My problem with the whole vaccine mandatory forcing everyone to get the jab, is that not a single government official and "medical experts" say a word about Natural immunity.

Why not?
It is a scientific fact that natural immunity is just as, perhaps even better than getting Vaccinated.
I had Covid, and I was a-symptomatic.
Studies have shown that your T and B cells will last your whole life.

I also know 2 people, who died days after receiving the jab, both from heart attacks.
My neighbour got goiter problems, and was ill for 3 weeks. She is still not as healthy as before the Jab.

My biggest concern is that I had Chemo Therapy, and this had an effect on my lungs, and whenevere I get the flue, it lasts for weeks.
Funny that Covid did not knock me out as did flue.

For the future...
Well it is bleak as long as Fauci and these superstar "Scientists" continues with their scare tactics.
it is now the 3 rd year we are living with covid, and there is no end in sight about the lies and propaganda these people are forcing down our throats.
After Delta, the newer strand Omicron, and the world goes bezerk.

Just like the flue, people took shots to be protected for the flue season every year, so will the governments force us to live under lockdowns and forced vaccines.

It will never end!
The money is to good to allow us to choose not to be vaccinated.

They do not follow the science.
All of a sudden children is also now mandated.
They dont care for your Natural immunity, because it somehow is a threat to their existence.

We will carry the sign, on our right hand (work) and our foreheads (Thoughts), and if you dont have the evidence to show you were vaccinated, you will not be able to buy anything, or think for yourself.
The Mark of the Beast taking your freedom away to be loyal servents of the powerfull forces ruling over us?
Perhaps!

If they do not allow Natural Immunity as a substetude for vaccines, what else might their reason me for this despotism?

 

[Jainarayan]

But they're true, aren't they?
How are they insulting, unless one's insulted by a statement of fact?

Jainaryan supported an individual morality, based on personal opinion, irrespective of harm to others.
Indifference to the harm one's actions may cause to others is anti-social, is it not?

You haven’t proven I’m causing harm to anyone else nor do you have any way to do that. You’re using your personal interpretations and cobbling together of information to label me as anti-social and a threat.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

My problem with the whole vaccine mandatory forcing everyone to get the jab, is that not a single government official and "medical experts" say a word about Natural immunity.

Why not?
It is a scientific fact that natural immunity is just as, perhaps even better than getting Vaccinated.
I had Covid, and I was a-symptomatic.
Studies have shown that your T and B cells will last your whole life.

I also know 2 people, who died days after receiving the jab, both from heart attacks.
My neighbour got goiter problems, and was ill for 3 weeks. She is still not as healthy as before the Jab.

My biggest concern is that I had Chemo Therapy, and this had an effect on my lungs, and whenevere I get the flue, it lasts for weeks.
Funny that Covid did not knock me out as did flue.

For the future...
Well it is bleak as long as Fauci and these superstar "Scientists" continues with their scare tactics.
it is now the 3 rd year we are living with covid, and there is no end in sight about the lies and propaganda these people are forcing down our throats.
After Delta, the newer strand Omicron, and the world goes bezerk.

Just like the flue, people took shots to be protected for the flue season every year, so will the governments force us to live under lockdowns and forced vaccines.

It will never end!
The money is to good to allow us to choose not to be vaccinated.

They do not follow the science.
All of a sudden children is also now mandated.
They dont care for your Natural immunity, because it somehow is a threat to their existence.

We will carry the sign, on our right hand (work) and our foreheads (Thoughts), and if you dont have the evidence to show you were vaccinated, you will not be able to buy anything, or think for yourself.
The Mark of the Beast taking your freedom away to be loyal servents of the powerfull forces ruling over us?
Perhaps!

If they do not allow Natural Immunity as a substetude for vaccines, what else might their reason me for this despotism?

I read this yesterday about our possibly not getting over COVID. Assuming Fauci is dictating the medical advice to protect people in the pandemic.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/22/dr-...onavirus-wont-ever-be-totally-eradicated.html

"I think with a combination of good public health measures, a degree of global herd immunity and a good vaccine, which I do hope and feel cautiously optimistic that we will get, I think when we put all three of those together, we will get control of this, whether it's this year or next year. I'm not certain," he said.

But, he added, "I don't really see us eradicating it."

-

Natural immunity would mean everyone would need to have the virus to be immune from it. That's not realistic but counterproductive.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Two doses of Pfizer. Only affect was slightly sore at injection site for a couple of days.

 

[Revoltingest]

Me too, and that is why I don't need the vaccine.

The vaccine would still be useful to you.
After all, you consort with tenants, who
are the most disease ridden kind of human.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The vaccine would still be useful to you.
After all, you consort with tenants, who
are the most disease ridden kind of human.

I resent that remark!

 

[Revoltingest]

I resent that remark!View attachment 57943

He looks afflicted with....

I wonder how many posters won't get this?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

- Even if she didn't have children, she would still be well within her rights to refuse to hang out with an unvaccinated person based on the level of risk she was willing to take. She has no obligation to take a risk like that just because someone else might take exception to her decision to base her actions on the medical consensus that vaccines lower (but don't eliminate altogether) the transmission rate of COVID.

Who said she wasn't?

You're talking about something I never disagreed with. My feelings and opinions doesn't matter in these respects and I respect that as I assume she would respect me. Nothing more to it.

- We would need to establish what "ostracism" entailed here: do you mean cutting off a friend only because they're unvaccinated? No, I generally don't agree with that either. Do you mean refusing to hang out with an unvaccinated person because you don't want the extra risk of catching the virus from them? I see no issue with that; people are entitled to their boundaries and limits. That's not ostracism; that's merely basing one's decisions on medical evidence.

Cutting off, refusing, I don't use those terms. I respect her and she respects me. Even if she had the time to come here like I said it wouldn't be in her best interest because of where I live as well. I don't have to agree with her views on vaccination status to respect her views and agree with her choice on getting vaccinated. Freedom of choice.

Ostracism meaning insulting people for their decisions not the decision itself.

- You have said that she's a logically minded person, and I think she's being reasonable based on what you've shared about her actions. She's definitely being quite cautious, but that's completely fine and even wise in this case. I wouldn't simply attribute her actions to "fear": in this situation, it's reasonable carefulness. Nothing wrong with having enough fear of a potentially severe or deadly virus to take precautions against it.

It is fine. But since I've known her for 20 years, it's in part fear. Which makes sense in a pandemic whether or not I or a vaccinated person points it out. Human nature.

Nothing wrong with fear of a pandemic. I never said there wasn't. However, fear is one of a few motions people won't admit or know they have.

- I'm not sure I understand the last two lines of your post, so I can't respond to them without knowing what you mean.

You guys are focusing on antivax arguments as if its Soley about whether one is vaccinated or not. It goes beyond that. There's a deep seeded problem here that people just bypassing because the number of deaths supersedes the value of life.

I agree with that approach, but here's the thing: we can control some things related to the pandemic, such as what preventive measures, if any, we take. For other things that we can't control, such as viral mutations and the possibility of catching the virus even if one does their best to avoid it, I try not to spend too much energy worrying either, since that's both fruitless and exhausting.

Exactly. When the decision warrants it, then I'd get the vaccine. Right now I'm not worried or concern with being asymptomatic and catching the virus so in "that" respect it's pretty neutral feeling.

Although the risk exists for both, an unvaccinated person is indeed at increased risk of catching COVID compared to a vaccinated one:

Relative to the unvaccinated person. Vaccinated people lowered their risk. But I get what you're saying. "Increased" works for some people to get vaccinated but not for me though.

This by itself wouldn't matter much if the unvaccinated person knew exactly what the risks were and chose to live with them without affecting anyone else, but because viruses can mutate frequently and also infect others after infecting an unvaccinated person, the decision isn't a completely personal one in this case. It could have implications for others as well as society in general.

I'm sure many do and decide for themselves whether the risk is warranted for them "not just what they are told." It's an important fact but using information because others tell you to is different than ascertaining those facts to see if they are applicable for yourself (whether it means you're doing it for others or not) is not what every person feels comfortable doing. The only facts that I can think that would get me is a bomb threat. In most cases I'm more of an observer than anything else.

 

[England my lionheart]

I'm going to go get my first and only jab soon
How many of you already have it? How is it? I read people die for it so faking smile I'll go, I want to visit my friends again and have fun everyday again

I’ve had 3,two oxfords and one Pfizer,I was unwell after the first one but no problems since.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The issue is when someone thinks for themselves about a highly specialized subject, like medical advice, and concludes something that contradicts the consensus of experts in the field. I would be wrong if I thought about smoking and said, "I've thought about this and decided that my lungs are healthy enough to handle smoking, so I'll keep doing it" in contrast to the overwhelming medical evidence that smoking is indeed harmful, healthy lungs or not.

When I'm with my doctor my doctor lets me decide what's best not just from him. Being the patient (and all patients) have a say in their medical treatment. You can't treat a person without the patient. Taking the vaccine is taking something at your own risk. It's different than sitting with a doctor to determine your risk level and other factors involved before you take the vaccine (however, professionals do this with medications). I'm more skeptical with professional strangers than professionals that I know insofar I don't know them at all for them to determine what I should do medicalwise.

I wish both of you good health. The last two years have been exhausting for many people, and I do hope we can drop our guards more often soon.

I hope so. There's a caveat to that with the topic that I thought of. Do you believe that the virus would just disappear because they told you you're no longer in danger or?

I was speaking generally about the idea that someone's refusal to hang out with an unvaccinated person necessarily amounted to "ostracism" or anything of the sort. Trying to push someone to do that against their will seems to me a form of imposition.

No. Not sure where you got that, but no. It's more the political issue between vaccinated people and unvaccinated people. In the States our president and media caused a lot of it. No scientist (I hope) would blame people for health related choices. Strongly encourage but not blame people.

You've clarified that you don't blame your friend for her boundary, though, so this doesn't apply to our discussion.

It doesn't, no. I just used it as an example of my overall point. I don't blame people for taking the vaccine and their precautions. I blame them on their negative behaviors and thoughts about other people because of their vaccination status and precautions they feel others should have despite the other saying the contrary.

If I used impose it would definitely be provaxx imposing their views on unvaccinated. I mean antivax and unvaccinated can have protests but that's such a small minority. The ball is in provaxx court. I mean when you guy get to 90% vaccination rate you'd still fuss at why people aren't vaccinated.

The whole thing is silly.

 

[England my lionheart]

Had 2 Moderna shots.
Getting booster Dec 7.
Too many anti-vaxers I personally have been very sick,
& some have died. Vaccinated people I know....just one
mild breakthru case. Some odds, eh.

People have the right to make bad decisions, so long
as they don't put others in danger. But there will be
consequences, eg, higher insurance premiums, loss
of job, illness, death, travel restrictions.

My friend was an anti-vaxxer,big guy,he caught covid and spent six weeks in bed on a ventilator,he said he never felt so I’ll in his life,really all this anti-vac is just nonsense.

 

[metis]

My wife & I got both Pfyzers and their booster, and we're so happy we did.