Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[Ben Dhyan]

Do you know what we call a belief that has been shown to be true? (Clue: it is not "a belief").

It's like the joke - What do we call "alternative medicine" that actually works? ... "Medicine".

Ahem, I said 'belief'.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

If lif

I am saying that NDE claims are just what they are, claims about something of a subjective nature. What sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE?

It is the claim that they are evidence for an afterlife that falls short. An event, the nature of which is undetermined is claimed to be evidence for something that cannot be demonstrated. Just because someone experiences it, does not automatically make what they believe they have experienced become true. They could be mistaken. They could be basing their belief on bias. They could simply be wrong. If it is claimed, then it needs to be supported.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I am saying that NDE claims are just what they are, claims about something of a subjective nature. What sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE?

The claim is that some experience is supposed to be something and that something is based on the subjective belief of the person making the claim. It is not based on any evidence that shows the claim to be correct. Everyone that has claimed an NDE supports that an afterlife exists has failed to make the connection.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The claim is that some experience is supposed to be something and that something is based on the subjective belief of the person making the claim. It is not based on any evidence that shows the claim to be correct. Everyone that has claimed an NDE supports that an afterlife exists has failed to make the connection.

I understand what you mean but what sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE, maybe none exists, nor can it?

 

[Lekatt]

Ta. I'll put it in an appropriate place. Meanwhile you might look at what so many achieve in their lifetimes with no such beliefs - and seemingly providing meaning in and for their lives.

People do great things in their lives, but it should last. As I said, intuitively everyone knows they will live after death.

 

[Lekatt]

I understand what you mean but what sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE, maybe none exists, nor can it?

Those who experience know it is real and it changes their lives. Other may think as they please.

 

[Mock Turtle]

People do great things in their lives, but it should last. As I said, intuitively everyone knows they will live after death.

Nah, only in your mind and the many who have such beliefs. I certainly don't expect such and the notion comes as rather an unnatural thought to me. Some of us can live with the reality as we see it, and hence can produce meaning in our lives, if so disposed, and such being rather more creative than being a slave to a doctrine perhaps. As I see it of course. But then you might not ever consider the obvious - that the one life is all we get. And being such, perhaps people would make the most of it rather than planning the next.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I understand what you mean but what sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE, maybe none exists, nor can it?

That is the point. There is no objective evidence that confirms that the phenomenon referred to as a "Near Death Experience" is anything more than a physiological response to brain trauma. Anyone claiming that it is something spiritual has the burden of proof to characterize the phenomenon, demonstrate the spirit realm and show how the connection is hooked up and works. No one has done that. Just lots of claims without basis and substance.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That is the point. There is no objective evidence that confirms that the phenomenon referred to as a "Near Death Experience" is anything more than a physiological response to brain trauma. Anyone claiming that it is something spiritual has the burden of proof to characterize the phenomenon, demonstrate the spirit realm and show how the connection is hooked up and works. No one has done that. Just lots of claims without basis and substance.

Lack of objective evidence for a subjective experience does no imho confirm the absence of the claim of an NDE. Just like absence of objective evidence for the claim of an OOB experience does not confirm the absence of an OOB. Same for dream experiences, sixth sense experience, etc., etc..

 

[gnostic]

Lack of objective evidence for a subjective experience does no imho confirm the absence of the claim of an NDE. Just like absence of objective evidence for the claim of an OOB experience does not confirm the absence of an OOB. Same for dream experiences, sixth sense experience, etc., etc..

What absence of evidence does confirm of any number of possibilities (or any combination of) about the person:

• Person’s wild imagination
• Person has been hallucinating
• Person is delusional
• Person is on medication...or high on drugs
• Person is seeking attention or 10-minute fame
  
• Person is a religious fanatic or cultist
• Person is a paranormal fanatic or cultist (example, like the UFO abductee cultist)
• Person is a liar
• Person is a con-artist or fraud (here, a person exploit people’s naïve for money, or to sell books, hence authors)
• etc

From the above list, starting with “seeking attention” to everything below that list, are all “liars” in IMHO.

The absence of evidence may not confirm the claims, but also doesn’t prove anything about such experiences to be true.

I would equate the NDE and the out-of-body experiences the same with the alien abductees.

Tell me, Ben:

Do you believe in every alien abduction stories of their abduction and having their bodies probed or experimented on?

How are NDE claims any more credible as the alien abduction claims, without evidence?​

 

[Ben Dhyan]

What absence of evidence does confirm of any number of possibilities (or any combination of) about the person:

• Person’s wild imagination
• Person has been hallucinating
• Person is delusional
• Person is on medication...or high on drugs
• Person is seeking attention or 10-minute fame
  
• Person is a religious fanatic or cultist
• Person is a paranormal fanatic or cultist (example, like the UFO abductee cultist)
• Person is a liar
• Person is a con-artist or fraud (here, a person exploit people’s naïve for money, or to sell books, hence authors)
• etc

From the above list, starting with “seeking attention” to everything below that list, are all “liars” in IMHO.

The absence of evidence may not confirm the claims, but also doesn’t prove anything about such experiences to be true.

I would equate the NDE and the out-of-body experiences the same with the alien abductees.

Tell me, Ben:

Do you believe in every alien abduction stories of their abduction and having their bodies probed or experimented on?

How are NDE claims any more credible as the alien abduction claims, without evidence?​

I have never claimed that all claims of a subjective nature are true, what I am saying is that not all claims of a subjective nature for which there is no objective evidence are false.

 

[gnostic]

I have never claimed that all claims of a subjective nature are true, what I am saying is that not all claims of a subjective nature for which there is no objective evidence are false.

The only thing that isn’t false in your last reply, are “dream experiences”.

Dreams, while I don’t consider the subjective experiences to be false, but I also don’t think dreams are “real” for the most parts.

I’ve said “for the most parts”.

What I mean by that, is that some of my dreams are real, based on memories, memories of real experiences, hence these are not false subjective experiences.

But in lot of cases, the majority of my dreams, when I do remember them are not real, and haven’t been my experiences.

For example, in one dream, I was up on the mountain side, skiing. I have never been on any mountain, never been on snow, and i have never gone skiing, not in 55 years of my life.

I must have watched people skiing on tv or in the movies, and my dream “self” imagined myself skiing. Likewise I never gone skydiving and parachuting, or swing on ropes like Tarzan or Spider-Man, or gone scuba diving, etc. What I am saying, that I have never experienced these myself, and yet in my dreams I did these things, simply because I have seen these things on tv or movies. So in parts, the dreams are one part “memory”, and one part “imagining” myself in these dream scenarios that I didn’t do in my waking reality.

And while I see my dream self in these dream scenarios, they are not real, so they are definitely not true.

As to the others in your list, NDE, OOB, sixth sense, and any form of paranormal or supernatural experiences to be false, due to imagination (or dreams), hallucinations or delusion, chemical-altering drug or just plain made-up deception. These are all false, until you or someone else can demonstrate with actual evidence that can support them as being true.

 

[gnostic]

I would like to add, @ben d that extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence.

But claims made without evidence, can be rejected without evidence.

Only the the claimants making claims about supernatural or paranormal events or experiences, have the burden of proof, meaning requiring evidence.

Without evidence, people are free to reject these events and experiences; we don’t need to prove these claims false. But sure, people are free to believe what they like, including the spiritual or supernatural aspect of NDE, but that’s their problems.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved watching supernatural or paranormal on tv series and movies, like The X-Files, Fringe, Stargate, Star Wars, Marvel or DC superheroes, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc, but they are fiction - fantasy and sci-fi, horror or supernatural themes, and so on.

I still like X-files, but that’s mostly because of Dana Scully carried a gun...okay there are humors too and intriguing plots too...but there something about redhead with a gun.

Oh, I generally hate vampires and zombies because they have been overdone, but there there are lot of actions in Underworld...but Selene in black and with knives or guns in her hands...well, it’s kinda of mesmerizing hot.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The only thing that isn’t false in your last reply, are “dream experiences”.

Dreams, while I don’t consider the subjective experiences to be false, but I also don’t think dreams are “real” for the most parts.

I’ve said “for the most parts”.

What I mean by that, is that some of my dreams are real, based on memories, memories of real experiences, hence these are not false subjective experiences.

But in lot of cases, the majority of my dreams, when I do remember them are not real, and haven’t been my experiences.

For example, in one dream, I was up on the mountain side, skiing. I have never been on any mountain, never been on snow, and i have never gone skiing, not in 55 years of my life.

I must have watched people skiing on tv or in the movies, and my dream “self” imagined myself skiing. Likewise I never gone skydiving and parachuting, or swing on ropes like Tarzan or Spider-Man, or gone scuba diving, etc. What I am saying, that I have never experienced these myself, and yet in my dreams I did these things, simply because I have seen these things on tv or movies. So in parts, the dreams are one part “memory”, and one part “imagining” myself in these dream scenarios that I didn’t do in my waking reality.

And while I see my dream self in these dream scenarios, they are not real, so they are definitely not true.

As to the others in your list, NDE, OOB, sixth sense, and any form of paranormal or supernatural experiences to be false, due to imagination (or dreams), hallucinations or delusion, chemical-altering drug or just plain made-up deception. These are all false, until you or someone else can demonstrate with actual evidence that can support them as being true.

.
Claimed subjective experience in most cases are true (logic says that a lie is true), the person truly believes the experience they had was a NDE, OOB, specific dream, precognition or whatever. If you personally have not experienced an NDE, OOG, precognition, etc., then you can not honestly know what was experienced, therefore your opinion as to the veracity of claimed experience is merely your belief. However if you have experienced one or more of these type of experiences, you may be in a position to better make a judgement on the veracity of these sort of claims.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I would like to add, @ben d that extraordinary claims would require extraordinary evidence.

But claims made without evidence, can be rejected without evidence.

Only the the claimants making claims about supernatural or paranormal events or experiences, have the burden of proof, meaning requiring evidence.

Without evidence, people are free to reject these events and experiences; we don’t need to prove these claims false. But sure, people are free to believe what they like, including the spiritual or supernatural aspect of NDE, but that’s their problems.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved watching supernatural or paranormal on tv series and movies, like The X-Files, Fringe, Stargate, Star Wars, Marvel or DC superheroes, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, etc, but they are fiction - fantasy and sci-fi, horror or supernatural themes, and so on.

I still like X-files, but that’s mostly because of Dana Scully carried a gun...okay there are humors too and intriguing plots too...but there something about redhead with a gun.

Oh, I generally hate vampires and zombies because they have been overdone, but there there are lot of actions in Underworld...but Selene in black and with knives or guns in her hands...well, it’s kinda of mesmerizing hot.

I can claim many extraordinary experiences that are true as far as I'm concerned, and could care less that you or any one else believes me or not. My guess is that for everyone who goes public with claims of NDEs, etc., there are another thousand or more who have had similar experiences, they know what they experienced and could care less that many people do not believe them. There is no burden of proof when the experiencer doesn't care what you believe or not believe about their claim.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am happy with the words I used, if you are not, please feel free to interpret it as I suggesteed.

This clip here explains why you shouldn't be happy with your choice of words

It's a wrong word to use in the context you are using it in.

One can't "reject" that which one doesn't even consider to be real.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Those who experience know (*) it is real and it changes their lives.

(*) BELIEVE

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Lack of objective evidence for a subjective experience does no imho confirm the absence of the claim of an NDE. Just like absence of objective evidence for the claim of an OOB experience does not confirm the absence of an OOB. Same for dream experiences, sixth sense experience, etc., etc..

That is always the case, for any and all claims.

Lack of objective evidence for bigfoot does not confirm the absence of bigfoot.
Lack of objective evidence for alien abduction does not confirm the absence of alien abduction.
Lack of objective evidence for pots of gold at the foot of a rainbow stashed there by leprechauns does not confirm the absence thereof.

But it DOES confirm that there is no reason to believe the claim.
This is why the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

This clip here explains why you shouldn't be happy with your choice of words

It's a wrong word to use in the context you are using it in.

One can't "reject" that which one doesn't even consider to be real.

I am what I am, if I'm happy I'm happy!

I speak the truth in the context of reality as I see it.

Considering reality as not being real is a rejection of reality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

.
Claimed subjective experience in most cases are true (logic says that a lie is true), the person truly believes the experience they had was a NDE, OOB, specific dream, precognition or whatever.

Alien abductees also truly believe they were abducted and probed by aliens. To the point that they'll pass any lie detector test.

So what?

The psychiatric ward of hospitals are filled with people who truly believe the bizar claims they make.
People "truly believing" their claims is only evidence of them "truly believing" their claims. It is not evidence of their claims being true. Or even plausible.

If you personally have not experienced an NDE, OOG, precognition, etc., then you can not honestly know what was experienced, therefore your opinion as to the veracity of claimed experience is merely your belief.

You can say the exact same thing to people who have not experienced seeing bigfoot, being abducted by aliens, having experienced being the reincarnation of Elvis or Napoleon, etc etc etc etc etc.

However if you have experienced one or more of these type of experiences, you may be in a position to better make a judgement on the veracity of these sort of claims.

Like the thousands of other people who believe they have seen bigfoot or were abducted by aliens?

I find it funny how you apparently think that believing a claim is the same as having evidence of said claim.
"my evidence for my claim is that I believe it" - that's in a nutshell what you are saying here.