Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[KWED]

Anyone can make a claim about anything, where does this 'demand' that claims be validated come from, God, the UN, the Constitution? No, take it or leave it.

From the expectation for the claim to be taken seriously. Otherwise, what s the purpose of making the claim in the first place?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I personally decide whether to accept or not, the veracity of other's claims, I do have an intuitive faculty that I've learnt to have reasonable confidence in.

So you don't need to assess the evidence or argument to support a claim, you just know if it is valid or not.
Crikey! That's almost a superpower. I hope you use it for the good of mankind.

So you accept that some people's claims of religious experiences, visions, NDEs, etc are just delusion (despite them believing them to be true just as much as you do with yours), but yours are different.
And how do you know this?

I'm guessing he knows it thanks to his superior "intuitive faculty".

 

[KWED]

So someone makes the claim that there is a God, do you demand objective verification before you believe?

If anyone makes any claim that goes against scientific knowledge, reason, logic, etc, then obviously. Why wouldn't you?

Do you demand objective verification that I had sex with your mum, or do you believe my claim simply because I have made it and you have no evidence to the contrary? (And notice that my claim does not go against science, logic, etc, you merely consider it unlikely/undesirable)

 

[KWED]

FYI-
That is an answer for someone who doesn't have a wife. It is also true that someone who doesn't have a wife cannot beat their wives. Likewise (just as a fun example I happen to like and which stuck with me), "the statement, 'All eleven-legged alligators are orange with blue spots' is true, since if it were false, then there would exist a eleven-legged alligator that is not orange with blue spots."

It is neither true nor false, because there are no eleven-legged alligators, so claims about their colouring is meaningless and can be dismissed as such.

Here we have a person for whom the set of women they are married to is empty (they have 0 wives). Thus it is true that they beat every wife they are married to

The question was "Do you beat your wife?" Therefore it is wrong to assume that if the unmarried person was married, they would necessarily beat their wife. The correct position is that they may or may not beat every wife they are married to. Just because a wife doesn't exist doesn't mean she won't not be beaten.

 

[Lekatt]

I think this says more about why you want to believe in life after death than much else, and hence why you might have a bias as to such beliefs. Plenty find meaning within their lives and in that of others, and in the human race as a whole. Does all other non-human life also lack meaning if they don't have some afterlife? Such a waste of life - but which of course has happened anyway, what with all those species now extinct.

You might intuitively believe you have spirit but we tend to believe all sorts of things that are not true, so where does that leave you?

All life continues after death. Individual life begins as a small amount of energy some call a spark. From there the spark grows by learning and doing. I am told that a blade of grass is individual energy learning and growing. This energy passes through many different configurations of physical life growing in size and strength as it progresses. When it reaches the human stage it is very large and strong, too large to all fit into a physical body. The overhang is called the aura and can be seen by some. But you are not through yet, individual energy can get huge enough to create and direct universes of energy, We sometimes call them God. But when the word God is used it means the sum total of all energy in existence.

Just thought you might like to have another thought to fairy tale with.

 

[SkepticThinker]

All life continues after death.

That's a claim that requires evidence.

Individual life begins as a small amount of energy some call a spark.

That's a claim that requires evidence.

From there the spark grows by learning and doing. I am told that a blade of grass is individual energy learning and growing.

Who told you that and why do you believe it?

This energy passes through many different configurations of physical life growing in size and strength as it progresses. When it reaches the human stage it is very large and strong, too large to all fit into a physical body.

That's a claim that requires evidence.

The overhang is called the aura and can be seen by some. But you are not through yet, individual energy can get huge enough to create and direct universes of energy, We sometimes call them God. But when the word God is used it means the sum total of all energy in existence.

That's definitely a claim that requires evidence.

Just thought you might like to have another thought to fairy tale with.

Fairy tale ... well, you said it.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's a claim that requires evidence.
...

Well, it ends in what position you hold in metaphysics.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, it ends in what position you hold in metaphysics.

Nah.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Nah.

Please expand.

 

[Mock Turtle]

All life continues after death. Individual life begins as a small amount of energy some call a spark. From there the spark grows by learning and doing. I am told that a blade of grass is individual energy learning and growing. This energy passes through many different configurations of physical life growing in size and strength as it progresses. When it reaches the human stage it is very large and strong, too large to all fit into a physical body. The overhang is called the aura and can be seen by some. But you are not through yet, individual energy can get huge enough to create and direct universes of energy, We sometimes call them God. But when the word God is used it means the sum total of all energy in existence.

Just thought you might like to have another thought to fairy tale with.

Ta. I'll put it in an appropriate place. Meanwhile you might look at what so many achieve in their lifetimes with no such beliefs - and seemingly providing meaning in and for their lives.

 

[KWED]

All life continues after death.

You believe it does. You hope it does.
But so far, there is no evidence that it actually does, nor any rational hypothesis explaining that it needs to or may do.
Moreover, there is evidence that suggests that all life does end at death.

So, given all this it seems your belief is based on little more than wishful thinking.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You believe it does. You hope it does.
But so far, there is no evidence that it actually does, nor any rational hypothesis explaining that it needs to or may do.
Moreover, there is evidence that suggests that all life does end at death.

So, given all this it seems your belief is based on little more than wishful thinking.

What evidence is, is tied to metaphysics, so what is your position on metaphysics and also epistemology.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Please expand.

Claims require evidence to be believed.
Religious claims aren't special and they're not exempt.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Claims require evidence to be believed.
Religious claims aren't special and they're not exempt.

Yeah, but what is the metaphysical, ontological, logic and epistemological relationship between the word "evidence" and the thing in itself; i.e. what you properly would call objective reality or something to that effect.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah, but what is the metaphysical, ontological, logic and epistemological relationship between the word "evidence" and the thing in itself; i.e. what you properly would call objective reality or something to that effect.

I'm just looking for some evidence, man.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm just looking for some evidence, man.

Yeah, but what "evidence" is, is an over 2000+ years long process. So to me "evidence" may not be what it is to you.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yeah, but what "evidence" is, is an over 2000+ years long process. So to me "evidence" may not be what it is to you.

How would I know what evidence a believer should give? I don't believe in the thing they believe in.

Something convincing would be nice.
If I asked you what evidence you have that your father exists, what would you give me?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

How would I know what evidence a believer should give? I don't believe in the thing they believe in.

Something convincing would be nice.
If I asked you what evidence you have that your father exists, what would you give me?

We are different kind of skeptics. Just leave it there.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's your job, since you are the one who's using that word.

I am happy with the words I used, if you are not, please feel free to interpret it as I suggesteed.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Demanding evidence and support for affirmative claims regarding a personal, subjective experience is possible and not at all unrealistic. If a person makes a claim, they should be able to support that claim or recognize that it is just their personal opinion based on bias, desire, and willingness to believe. It certainly is not based on objective evidence that can be shared. The unrealistic and impossible are in the attempt to provide that evidence.

Do you believe every opinion that any person tells you? Why not? Do you accept any claim any person makes based on their subjective experience? Why not?

If you believe NDE's are a spiritual experience and meet someone that claims they are evidence for the existence of aliens since they are the result of advanced alien technology. Do you ignore their claim? Do you ask for evidence to support the claim? Do you accept it and try to reconcile it with what you already believe?

Others on here have attempted to provide what they have mistaken for evidence for the spiritual nature of NDE's. While it is not evidence showing what they claim, they made an attempt to provide evidence. Why do you think they did that?

You can believe what you want, but coming on an internet forum making claims about something, even a subjective experience, requires support or the claims can be dismissed without comment.

Beyond that, I am not sure what you are trying to say. Claiming that NDE's are spiritual events that reveal the existence of life after death requires evidence to support the claim.

I am saying that NDE claims are just what they are, claims about something of a subjective nature. What sort of objective evidence do you think may exist associated with an NDE?