Tennessee sees new step in wave of anti-Trans bills

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes - in Post #200 they originally asked, "where do you believe Republican Caitlyn Jenner should go to pee?"

To which I responded in Post #204 with,

"Caitlyn Jenner is a biological man and should therefore use the men's restroom.

So because not everyone is a celebrity and there business isn't known to the world, should they have their genitals and/or genetics tested before they use a bathroom?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So because not everyone is a celebrity and there business isn't known to the world, should they have their genitals and/or genetics tested before they use a bathroom?

You're late tot he party. I have answered this question a few times already.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

I swear when you're trans there's a lot of people who feel entitled to know about and see your genitals. No surprise or shock that it's overwhelmingly Conservatives who do this. They even feel entitled to our medical history, even though they are not legally entitled or privileged to it.
And of course they have a well documented history of embarrassing themselves and being wrong when they try to enforce this obscene nonsense.

No one wants to know or see your genitals. We just want you to respect the fact that your subjective view of yourself should not set public policy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No one wants to know or see your genitals. We just want you to respect the fact that your subjective view of yourself should not set public policy.

Good thing science and medicine agree with transitioning as the appropriate treatment for those with gender dysphoria.
And, there's no way to enforce such a thing to force transmen into the women's restroom and transwomen into the men's restroom. Not without prying into information that is no one's business and legally no one's business.

 

[ChristineM]

We started out with a bunch of religious fundamentalists so uptight the British were too liberal for them.

This is true, the puritans left Europe because they were not allowed to intimate people into joining their religion

 

[Guitar's Cry]

You're late tot he party. I have answered this question a few times already.

Then point me to the chips and give me the summary so that I may discuss it as well.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You mean like laws regarding the respect of religion and culture?

As far as I know there are no laws that dictate which religion or culture a person can have.

There are laws that protect a person's right to have whatever religion or culture they want - but those laws only cover that which does not infringe upon the rights of others.

So - even though biological men or women have the right to personally identify and live as the opposite gender - they can't infringe on someone's rights to privacy and personal safety in a public restroom - most women don't like having biological men in their restroom with them - it makes them uncomfortable.

It's just like how anyone has the right to personally identify and live as a Christian - but they can't infringe on someone's rights not to be harassed or denied healthcare.

Which is a very silly argument, because it is both discriminatory and unenforceable.

No - what is discriminatory is allowing only "certain" biological men and women to enter the restroom of the opposite sex - and not all.

Why is it okay for one man to enter the women's restroom and not another? Because of this "personal belief" they hold?

In order for that to work - you'd have to abolish all concept of biological sex or all public restrooms being separated by biological sex.

And the "unenforceable" argument is illogical to me.

Yes - I understand that there are certain transgender individuals who present as the opposite sex very well - they did their homework - had extensive work done - but the majority of transgender individuals are identifiable as such.

The argument that, "They look and act just like a woman - so they should be allowed to use the women's restroom." is the same as saying, "The criminal left no evidence - so they should be allowed to get away with the crime they committed."

It does not matter if there are certain transgender people who can pass as a member of the opposite sex - because they aren't a member of the opposite sex.

Just like how it does not matter if a criminal can steal a car and never gets caught - the car is no less stolen and it still does not belong to the criminal.

Agreed. For men to relieve themselves in privacy.

All men. The gender.

No - biological men.

You can't just reinvent words.

Then why do you believe it's okay to force women to use men's restrooms?

I don't. A biological man who believes they are a biological woman is not a biological woman.

He is a biological man.

Because bathrooms don't differentiate based on biological sex. They differentiate based on gender.

No - they do not. The parts in play in any restroom are biological - not societal.

There are urinals in the men's restroom because of biology - not society.

Because, as I said, it's about privacy - not the facilities. To borrow your vernacular - "generally, trans women don't like to expose themselves to the opposite gender".

I said "opposite sex" - not gender.

The facility is designed for privacy.

Biological men don't want to expose their biology (not society construct) to biological women.

Baseless assumption.

Also demonstrably false:

The above people are a trans woman and trans man, respectively. Due to the laws in their local area, they are forced to use bathrooms that do not match their gender. According to you, people should not be made uncomfortable by them because their "sex" is appropriate. Do you seriously believe that?

Wow. I can't believe the "poster children" you decided to use for your argument are the creeps taking pictures in public restrooms.

Pretty sure many places would consider this to be illegal - obscene - and may be child pornography if there were any children in the shot.

Look - there are certain transgender people who present very much like members of the opposite sex - but they aren't.

Just like there are many criminals who get away with their crimes.

We can't throw out biological sex and the law because some people are better than others at circumventing these things.

They want to. Trans women want to use the women's bathroom and trans men want to use the men's bathroom. You are the one who wants to force them not to.

No - their biological sex - and therefore whichever public restroom they can use - was decided in the womb.

They don't get to choose.

I really don't feel like you've paid much attention to my argument (or, apparently, your own for that matter).

YOU are the one saying they are "designed" different. I am the one saying they are the same, they are only separate for purposes of privacy.

They were designed for privacy. All restrooms - exempting a hole in the ground - are designed for privacy.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

You seem very hung up on a very basic fact, and yet you admit that the reason they are separate is for reasons of privacy. You're clearly being a bit silly here.

I do not believe that a men's restroom is the same as a women's restroom.

They were both designed for privacy yet one is intended for use by biological men and the other is intended for use by biological women.

They are seeking to keep their biological parts private - that is why who uses which restroom is determined by biology - not some societal construct.

I am not sure you are understanding my argument. YOU are the one arguing that there is a difference in the "design" of the toilet that means they are more suited for use with one biological sex than the other. Now, you are retreating from that and admitting that they are, in fact, functionally identical. Which is it?

No - I never once discussed the design of any toilet - you did. I spoke about the design of the room itself.

Every toilet provides the same function - but the rooms are designed to provide the privacy to one biological sex from the other.

You are the one trying to claim that, "Since toilets function the same - anyone should be able to use any restroom" - which is not a logical argument - because the toilets were never the foundation of any argument here.

I never once used the function of the toilets as a determining factor - but rather the design and intended use of the room itself.

Except there is a problem - those facilities contain people they are - "generally" - less comfortable exposing themselves to.

There are unisex restrooms for them.

Many people don't like using public restrooms at all. Doing their "business" with others around makes them uncomfortable.

That doesn't give them the right to clear everyone out of a public restroom when they want to use it.

Public spaces are made to serve the public.

Generally - biological men and women are uncomfortable doing their "business" around members of the opposite biological sex.

If someone has an issue doing their "business" among members of their same biological sex - they should use a unisex restroom - one that has one toilet and its one door - which is more private.

You can't break the rules just because you don't like them. Everyone else is following the rules.

Wow.

Are you serious?

Not a great time to try out your Joker impression. Still, 7/10.

Hah. I'd be happy with a 6 - so I'm elated.

I do find this discussion laughable though - which is why I laughed.

Which is when the word "gender" started to be used and applied to people as sociological phenomenon. Gender was never used to refer to biological sex.

That is not accurate at all.

"Gender" comes from the Latin "genus" which can mean many things like "kind" (which is why it appears so often in the Latin book of Genesis).

The word "gender" has been used for centuries in the English language to refer to the sexes of men and women.

gender | Origin and meaning of gender by Online Etymology Dictionary (etymonline.com)

Oh dear. Somebody doesn't know their history. Sex and sexuality have been fluid in countless societies and cultures throughout history.

No - this is historical revisionism.

I have heard all the examples - none of them prove that biological sex is a spectrum or fluid or anything other than the reality of binary. Male and female.

Any and all examples you would share are - just like today - confused people doing confusing things that were not generally accepted by their societies and cultures.

Like in the above instances, which you would argue would be wrong.

In any case, this doesn't help. Once a person has been reported, how do you then determine whether or not the reported individual is, in fact, biologically male or female, and has therefore used the "inappropriate" bathroom? Run through the scenario in your head, and tell me at what point it is okay to violate that person's privacy (if not outright sexually assault them) in the interest of public safety.

No one who commits a crime has a right to privacy when they are being searched in accordance with the process of being detained or arrested.

If I - a biological man - who dressed like a man entered a women's restroom and later became involved with the police because of my violation - they would search me - even in my private areas - to determine that I did not have a weapon before I was taken into custody.

It should be no different for any other biological man.

You claiming that - "They present as a woman so they should get away with it" - is no different than arguing that really good thieves should be able to keep what they steal.

Agreed. If people act inappropriately in a bathroom, they will be reported.

So - in your opinion - any man can enter and use the women's restroom just as long as they 'act appropriately"?

It does not matter that the room was clearly marked for women only.

How the women using that restroom at the time feel about the intrusion does not matter.

Then we have to determine what is or is not "appropriate" behavior.

So what is the issue with trans people using them? Unless you believe that simply BEING transgender means you are automatically being inappropriate, which is obviously very wrong and bigoted.

Only biological men can use the men's restroom.

Only biological women can use the women's restroom.

A member of the opposite sex entering and using those facilities is inappropriate and is a violation.

Because everybody carries a colostomy bag with them everywhere they go in case of emergencies, right?

You said that it was not fair to "force" men who believe they are women to use the men's restroom "against their will."

So - again - no one is "forcing" anyone anywhere to use any public restroom.

No one is forcing anyone anywhere to use any public restroom "against their will".

If anyone needs to do their "business" in public - facilities have been provided - but there are laws associated with using them - and if you want to use them - you need to operate in accordance with those laws.

Your deliberate misunderstanding of language is not encouraging.

No - I am using the words YOU used.

You claimed that people were being "forced" to use public restrooms "against their will."

That is not true.

If you meant something else by what you said - then that is on you for not being clear.

Yes you do. Stop being obtuse.

You are talking about forcing people to do something against their will.

No one is doing that.

There are many people who never use public restrooms.

No one is forced to use a public restroom.

But not everywhere has those, and public restrooms are open to the public (hence the name) meaning they are free to use them. So we need to allow them access.

But there are rules associated with their use - such as - not taking photos while in the public restroom.

Your "poster children" above just don't seem to care about laws - do they?

I have never facepalmed so hard.

After telling me at length how my argument "fails" because the facilities are exactly the same, you then make the argument that they are "DESIGNED" differently again.

Do you not get that the contradiction in this argument is yours? YOU are the one arguing that one bathroom is designed for "biological men", and yet you admit that the facilities are identical. According to YOU, if I have two identical rooms with a toilet in each, and I slap a sign on one that says "female" and a sign on the other that says "male", that means that they are somehow "designed for the respective biological sexes". And yet you admit that the facilities are FUNCTIONALLY IDENTICAL and the only reason men use men's and women use women's is for reasons of privacy, which is the argument I have been making. Your argument makes no sense.

You are talking about unisex restrooms. The ones with the single toilet and door.

Those were designed for anyone to use - because they are completely isolated.

Generally - public restrooms have stalls - those designed for men tend to have urinals - and open spaces to allow people to move about.

The men's restroom was designed to offer privacy to biological men - the same goes for the women's restroom.

And you still have yet to explain how to enforce sexually-segregated public bathrooms, instead relying on the public to "report people". And yet, as I have demonstrated above, not all trans people wear a big sign over their head saying "trans", so this is also unenforceable.

The vast majority of transgender individuals can be recognized as such.

There are those who present very well as the opposite sex - but that shouldn't give them a free pass.

Most criminals get caught - that doesn't mean we should throw out the law - just because there are some really good criminals who get away with it.

Just admit that you're creeped out by trans people and you don't like the idea of them having access to public spaces already. These arguments aren't hiding it as well as you think.

No - thank you.

That would be a lie and it wouldn't be relevant to the issue.

My personal preferences don't set public policy.

Just like how the personal preferences of a transgender individual should not set public policy.

 

[Kooky]

No - their biological sex - and therefore whichever public restroom they can use - was decided in the womb.

So do you think this man in the picture should be forced the women's restrooms or not? It seems you think men with beards wearing pants should be using the women's restroom because they were born female, is that correct?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So do you think this man in the picture should be forced the women's restrooms or not? It seems you think men with beards wearing pants should be using the women's restroom because they were born female, is that correct?

Women can have beards and wear pants - but it doesn't make them men.

I mean - how could it? They wouldn't know the first thing about being a man.

Also - they should be banned from all public restrooms if they are going to be taking photos in them.

That's just wrong.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

public restroom

Public means no privacy. It's public. By default and inherently privacy is diminished.
Amd what do you say of lots of the rest of the world that doesn't segregate restrooms by sex?
Americans are just often times silly and stupid how they cling to obsolete binaries and traditions the rest of the western world done away with.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Public means no privacy. It's public. By default and inherently privacy is diminished.
Amd what do you say of lots of the rest of the world that doesn't segregate restrooms by sex?
Americans are just often times silly and stupid how they cling to obsolete binaries and traditions the rest of the western world done away with.

Okay.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

Then point me to the chips and give me the summary so that I may discuss it as well.

I believe that only biological men can use the men's restroom. I believe that only biological women can use the women's restrooms.

I understand that there are transgender individuals that present as the opposite sex very well. They have done their homework. Had extensive work done.

However - most transgender people are recognized as such.

The argument that we are unable to enforce such a policy - because there are transgender individuals who present as the opposite sex very well - is illogical.

That would be like saying, "We should no longer enforce the law because there are some criminals out there that get away with it."

So - yes - some transgender people may slip through the cracks - because they have mutilated themselves to the point of not being recognizable as their biological sex.

But - that is not an excuse to stop enforcing the law.

If you allow some men into women's restrooms - you have to allow them all - and I don't most women would appreciate that.

 

[Kooky]

Women can have beards and wear pants - but it doesn't make them men.

I mean - how could it? They wouldn't know the first thing about being a man.

So you would have no problem if a stranger with pants and a grown beard showed up in a women's restroom.
Correct?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So you would have no problem if a stranger with pants and a grown beard showed up in a women's restroom.
Correct?

If a woman were to enter. Most transgender individuals are recognized as such.

If someone passably presents as the opposite sex - they will cause some confusion wherever they go.

 

[fantome profane]

most women don't like having biological men in their restroom with them - it makes them uncomfortable.

So you speak for “most women”.

I can do that too. I sincerely believe that most women would be uncomfortable is a trans man were to walk into the ladies room.

But what you or I think matters little. In your home you can decide who can use your facilities, as I can in mine. A business owner is no different in this respect. They can set their own policy, and most businesses choose to allow people to use the bathroom they believe to be appropriate. We don’t need big brother (or sister) to interfere.

 

[Fallen Prophet]

So you speak for “most women”.

I can do that too. I sincerely believe that most women would be uncomfortable is a trans man were to walk into the ladies room.

But what you or I think matters little. In your home you can decide who can use your facilities, as I can in mine. A business owner is no different in this respect. They can set their own policy, and most businesses choose to allow people to use the bathroom they believe to be appropriate. We don’t need big brother (or sister) to interfere.

We are talking about public restrooms - not private business-owned ones.

Business owners are in charge of their restrooms - but they should put up a sign informing people of their policy.

So no surprises.

 

[fantome profane]

We are talking about public restrooms - not private business-owned ones.

Business owners are in charge of their restrooms - but they should put up a sign informing people of their policy.

So no surprises.

What exactly is a “public restroom”. Seriously, we use that term, but bathrooms that are located inside restaurants or stores or theatres etc are owned by that business. So we agree that the business should set policy.

What does that leave?

 

[Kooky]

If a woman were to enter.

Who decides whether the masculine person with a beard and pants is a woman or not?
How would you check that kind of thing in a restroom?

 

[Fallen Prophet]

What exactly is a “public restroom”. Seriously, we use that term, but bathrooms that are located inside restaurants or stores or theatres etc are owned by that business. So we agree that the business should set policy.

What does that leave?

Restrooms in public spaces.