Jehovah Witnesses

[The Hammer]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

 

[The Hammer]

Oh Gods! Am I becoming @Frank Goad ?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

 

[The Hammer]

Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

That makes sense. Thank you.

 

[JustGeorge]

Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

How are those 144K chosen?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

How are those 144K chosen?

Unknown. It's not delegated. More of a 'they feel the spirit' sort of thing. In all my time I only met one who felt he was part of that group. Generally doesn't change how they behave in the congregation apart from one ceremony where they drink wine and eat bread everyone else passes over (their celebration of passover.)

 

[John53]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

When they did the maths they came up with JW 1.21b, also known as JW lite. 144,001 and above go to a slightly less luxurious heaven on a rebuilt earth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Jehovah's Witnesses have been a somewhat flexible cult, and though some may take this as an insult the sect does tic enough of the boxes in the cult description to qualify as such. They have predicted the end of the world at least three or four times. The benefit of an end of the world prediction is an increase in membership. The downside lies in explaining why it was not really the end of the world, or as they teach now, that the end of the world began on their last predicted date.

 

[InChrist]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

The Watchtower takes the passage in Revelation 7 completely out of context and twists it to refer to their organization’s supposed ruling class in heaven. The passage is very specific though in reference to literal members of the tribes of Israel- 12,000 from each tribe listed. As well, the 144,000 are clearly on earth during the Tribulation period when they are sealed for special service for God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@The Hammer , I’m just now seeing this.

Briefly, Jesus himself indicated two groups which would have God’s blessing.

If you read Matthew 25 from verse 31 on, you’ll read about 3 groups:
1) sheep,
2) goats, and in vs.40...
3) brothers (and sisters) of Christ.

The goats are not looked w/ favor, but the sheep are. So one group there, having God’s — and Jesus’ — favor.

Then there are those whom Jesus calls his “brothers”. (And some translations includes “sisiters,” which is fine.)

They must be in an approved condition, if Jesus refers to them as kin. The account (Matt.25) indicates that, too.

Simply put, those brothers and sisters of Christ are chosen, and they make up the 144,000, in Revelation 7 & Revelation 14.
Those 144,000 are “chosen” for a purpose, to rule as kings w/ Jesus (Revelation 5:10).
But kings need subjects, right? (Doesn’t every king have loyal subjects?) Those subjects are the sheep, from Matthew 25.

So really, from our understanding of the Scriptures, there are two groups who “will be saved”, as the expression goes....those who are chosen to rule with Christ in heaven, and the sheep (which constitute billions of people) who will be their subjects and live forever here on Earth, under their beneficial rulership in the Kingdom.


There are many, many more Scriptures we use to support this understanding, but I wanted to cover the basics.

Hope it makes sense.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

[JW’s] have predicted the end of the world at least three or four times.

You know me (a little), SZ....I think too many facts are being misrepresented, either unwittingly or on purpose.

So please, cite the references from JW publications showing where JW’s “predicted the end of the world at least three or four times.”

1914 is the only one I’m aware of. Although it wasn’t the “end of the word” as expected, it turned out to be quite an important date, the beginning of the Last Days.
And evidence can be provided, to support this conclusion.

I will also say this: overeagerness to see the end of suffering in this world, has led to some overly optimistic statements....

 

[Subduction Zone]

You know me (a little), SZ....I think too many facts are being misrepresented, either unwittingly or on purpose.

So please, cite the references from JW publications showing where JW’s “predicted the end of the world at least three or four times.”

1914 is the only one I’m aware of. Although it wasn’t the “end of the word” as expected, it turned out to be quite an important date, the beginning of the Last Days.
And evidence can be provided, to support this conclusion.

I will also say this: overeagerness to see the end of suffering in this world, has led to some overly optimistic statements....

Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions - Wikipedia

1878 was the first. It was an "End of the Harvest" prediction. It still amounted to the same thing.

1881 a revised version of the same.

1914 back but with a name change.

1918 The New Terminus, another name change.

1925 Resurrection of the Patriarchs. Still a variation on the same them.

1975 Worldwide Jubilee. How did they get that one wrong? Everyone knows that it was going to be 1999

After that they could putting dates on events and simply said by the end of the 20th century. Nope.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

You covered it pretty good, ADA!
Everything except animals being resurrected. Jesus’ sacrifice only covered what Adam lost, perfect human life.

I would love to have some of my pets come back, but their lives are not covered. I.e., they are gone forever.

Yahweh may grant “requests of our heart” in that regard, we just don’t know....yet.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

You covered it pretty good, ADA!
Everything except animals being resurrected. Jesus’ sacrifice only covered what Adam lost, perfect human life.

I would love to have some of my pets come back, but their lives are not covered. I.e., they are gone forever.

Yahweh may grant “requests of our heart” in that regard, we just don’t know....yet.

That's true. I didn't mean individual animals so to speak. More that there was always casual discussion of bringing back animals that had been extinct, or if whatever happens due to said apocalypse doesn't make the world lifeless sans humans.

But that was just the cultural mythos I got from the congregation, less whether that is scriptural as JW see it.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

1878 was the first. It was an "End of the Harvest" prediction. It still amounted to the same thing.

“End of the Harvest” was not the “end of the world.” (That’s what I specifically asked for.)

1881 a revised version of the same.

Again, no. This “revised version” (If it’s what I think you mean) , first printed in 1879, is 1914...which I acknowledged was the date.

1914 back but with a name change.

Which I acknowledged.

1918 The New Terminus, another name change.

No...no “end of the world”.

1925 Resurrection of the Patriarchs. Still a variation on the same them.

That’s not the “end of the world.”

1975 Worldwide Jubilee.

Again, it wasn’t a prediction...the Watchtower indicated it might be, due to an understanding of Eve’s creation date of 4026BCE, but nothing was definitely proposed.
I remember, I was around for this one.

How did they get that one wrong? Everyone knows that it was going to be 1999

Good one...
You got me singing.

After that they could putting dates on events and simply said by the end of the 20th century. Nope.

The “overly optimistic” ones I mentioned. The year 2000 was only 76 years after 1914...

The “Last Days” in Noah’s time, were 120 years long.

We’ve come to appreciate that we don’t worship Jehovah, based on a date relating to our salvation....we worship Him because we love Him. Even to our death.

 

[Subduction Zone]

“End of the Harvest” was not the “end of the world.” (That’s what I specifically asked for.)

Again, no. This “revised version” , begun in 1879, is 1914...which I acknowledged was the date.

Which I acknowledged.

No...no “end of the world”.

That’s not the “end of the world.”

Again, it wasn’t a prediction...the Watchtower indicated it might be, due to an understanding of Eve’s creation date of 4026BCE, but nothing was definitely proposed.
I remember, I was around for this one.

Good one...
You got me singing.



The “overly optimistic” ones I mentioned. The year 2000 was only 76 years after 1914...

The “Last Days” in Noah’s time, were 120 years long.

We’ve come to appreciate that we don’t worship Jehovah, based on a date relating to our salvation....we worship Him because we love Him. Even to our death.

They pretty much all are. They are all either end of the world or the very first thing that supposedly will happen at the end of the world. They all failed. Now you are just practicing apologetics and have not refuted anything.

And as you well know your "Noah" claim does not help you at all. If you want to refute me you must do so based upon reality.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

They pretty much all are. They are all either end of the world or the very first thing that supposedly will happen at the end of the world. They all failed. Now you are just practicing apologetics and have not refuted anything.

No, they are not.
And I asked for JW publication references, not references from sites with an anti-JW agenda.
(That’s like getting info from Ken Ham about evolution.)

And as you well know your "Noah" claim does not help you at all. If you want to refute me you must do so based upon reality.

I’ve presented many lines of evidence. This is not the thread to continue with that.

 

[YoursTrue]

Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

You think Jehovah's Witnesses believe that animals will be resurrected? Where did you get that idea?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's true. I didn't mean individual animals so to speak. More that there was always casual discussion of bringing back animals that had been extinct, or if whatever happens due to said apocalypse doesn't make the world lifeless sans humans.

But that was just the cultural mythos I got from the congregation, less whether that is scriptural as JW see it.

Oh, sorry, I see you elucidated on that point about animals being resurrected. That took me by surprise. Is that something you saw in any of the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses, or something you heard someone say? Since the Bible says that those who attain everlasting life will enjoy happiness forever, i.e.., no sadness, that includes understanding about animals. (Revelation 21:1-5)

 

[cataway]

The Watchtower takes the passage in Revelation 7 completely out of context and twists it to refer to their organization’s supposed ruling class in heaven. The passage is very specific though in reference to literal members of the tribes of Israel- 12,000 from each tribe listed. As well, the 144,000 are clearly on earth during the Tribulation period when they are sealed for special service for God.

no maybe you dont realize that the apostles were the first to be chosen. they died some time ago . the ones that are asked to fill a position in the kingdom happens through out time ,not all at once as you may want to think.