Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

[TransmutingSoul]

His "self" and his "character"? How do you prove that? Stories about how wonderful and spiritual person he was? His "mission" and his writings? As if any of things aren't going to illicit questions. He's the promised one prophesied by every religion? That has brought on endless questions. But you've answered those questions for yourself. What were those answers? I'm sure some became unimportant to you. How did you change once you believed? Why is the Baha'i Faith your truth? That's the only real thing any religious person can share with others.

I was actually going to start an OP based on these types of questions. I still might, if you do not mind me using this post as a reference?

Personally what attracted me was the Oneness of God and humanity, the elimination of all predudices and the equality of women CG. The book I read was God Loves Laughter and that won my heart to a cause that I had accepted would do no harm to embrace.

I had no idea about the rest of it, but I immersed myself in that Word to find out more. Thief in the night was my 2nd book and it truly amazed me, so I went deeper I read the Dawn breakers, the eyewitness history and that said a lot to me. The Kitab-i-Iqan and the Kitab-i-aqdas cemented a Faith that God does as God wills.

So the Dawnbreakers offers so much. One has to ask themselves why so many well respected and renowned Muslim Divines embraced the Message of the Bab and then Baha'u'llah. So yes it is about the person and character of the Messenger.

The Shah sent the most respected and learned divine to confront Baha'u'llah and determine the Truth. The Shah offered what you find out, we will embrace. Ling story shirt, after 3 interviews that Divine recognised his years of obtaining wisdom was nothing compared to what Baha'u'llah could offer and he embraced the Message given by Baha'u'llah. Of course the weak minded Shah was then persuaded by narrow minded divines that Baha'u'llah was just a sorcerer, that they used drugs etc and thus the Shah turned back from his promise.

What a different world it could be.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All of that is fine. They've accepted what the Baha'i Faith says. So I'm sure they "feel" the power and the light and all that. But, so do those that believe the born again Christians. But what they are being taught is absolutely contradictory to what the person that is being taught by the Baha'is. They each feel God love, but they are believing very different things about God.

Good, that is their choice, I will leave them to it, the Baha'is will not harm them, nor try to convert them.

All the best CG.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Nine elected Baha'is are really going to be able to run a world government? I don't think so. What other governmental offices and departments are going to be needed? Whose going to run them? Elected or appointed people? And, I always ask, who's going to enforce the laws?

Have we not told you CG that the new world order now commences with the lesser peace? The commencement was in 1844 and what is happening is the winding up of the old while the new roles out in its stead.

So why are you are still thinking Baha'i want to rule the world, that is far, far, far, far, and again far from the reality of this Faith. Do we need to say and go through that again?

What our part is, is in building strong loving communities based on virtues, morals and service to each other. We offer a way of life that a new World Order can and will eventually embrace, as there is no other way. In other words we are laying the foundations that others can and will build upon and a lot of them will not be followers of the Baha'i Faith.

It will not be Baha'i governing the world affairs, while the people choose who they want to represent and govern, the Baha'i will be administering the requirements of the faiths Spiritual needs, all the while within the laws set by the nations as a whole. We will work besides all those building loving communities.

Regards Tony

 

[night912]

Yes, judging in the sense that I used my judgment.

Yes, I used my judgment, as we are required to do in order to make determinations.

So you do judge people.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it does matter. Again and again, born again Christians... Do you believe what they say about Jesus? No. Do they agree with who Baha'is say about Jesus? No.

It matters. Two religious beliefs saying something different. They both can't be right. The Christians say they "know" the miracles happened? Some go to the extreme of believing that everything in the Bible must be taken literally. That matters.

But you also have Christians who believe many different things, so the differences are not only between Baha'i and Christian beliefs. Some Christians believe in all the miracles of Jesus and some don't.

If they are wrong it matters. They are spreading their wrong beliefs as the God's honest truth. If they are right, then Jesus is coming soon, and he's going to be sending all those that don't believe in their Jesus to hell. As unlikely as that is, if it's true, that matters.

Yes, it does matter if they are wrong about Jesus coming soon and sending nonbelievers to hell; it matters to them and if you believe them it would matter to you, but that is for them and you to determine.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you do judge people.

Yes I do, in the following sense. Do you have a point to make?

judge
form an opinion or conclusion about.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=judge+means

 

[night912]

Yes I do, in the following sense. Do you have a point to make?

judge
form an opinion or conclusion about.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=judge+means

You said you didn't in your other post. So just needed clarification if you do or not. I now know that you do.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was actually going to start an OP based on these types of questions. I still might, if you do not mind me using this post as a reference?

Sure go ahead

Have we not told you CG that the new world order now commences with the lesser peace? The commencement was in 1844 and what is happening is the winding up of the old while the new roles out in its stead.

So why are you are still thinking Baha'i want to rule the world, that is far, far, far, far, and again far from the reality of this Faith. Do we need to say and go through that again?

What our part is, is in building strong loving communities based on virtues, morals and service to each other. We offer a way of life that a new World Order can and will eventually embrace, as there is no other way. In other words we are laying the foundations that others can and will build upon and a lot of them will not be followers of the Baha'i Faith.

It will not be Baha'i governing the world affairs, while the people choose who they want to represent and govern, the Baha'i will be administering the requirements of the faiths Spiritual needs, all the while within the laws set by the nations as a whole. We will work besides all those building loving communities.

Regards Tony

If Baha'is don't get control of the whole world, what do you expect? A secular government is going to institute the Baha'i laws?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: Yes I do, in the following sense. Do you have a point to make?

judge
form an opinion or conclusion about.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=judge+means

night912 said: You said you didn't in your other post. So just needed clarification if you do or not. I now know that you do.

I do not see anywhere in the post that you were responding to where I said I do not judge anyone. I did say I believe it is wrong to judge according to my beliefs but I did not say I never judge anyone.

Trailblazer said: The other problem is when people think that they know how another person arrived at their belief when they don’t know the half of it. According to my beliefs, it is wrong to judge other people and call them names such as irrational, illogical and unreasonable. That is also a Christian belief, judge not lest ye be judged. Why are people compelled to do this? I see no other reason why people would criticize another person except ego: I am right and you are wrong, so the other person has to be labeled wrong in order for the criticizer to be right.

Trailblazer said: It does not make any difference what I say about myself because you do not believe me anyway.
You have already decided you know all about me but you don't know me from Adam.

I thought you were different from some atheists on this forum but that just goes to show that I can be wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure go ahead


If Baha'is don't get control of the whole world, what do you expect? A secular government is going to institute the Baha'i laws?

I do not expect they will at first. Baha'u'llah, Abdu'lbaha and Shoghi Effendi gave us a fair glimpse of what the future will produce, but as I have offered before with prophecy, it is not usually given in a chronological order. My guess is thay get visions of the future that are not on a discernible timeline and thus why they would be hesitant to offer greater detail, but to say we must live in and be concerned with the needs of the age we live in.

Abdu'lbaha did say 2 years before the first world war that the war would be 2 years hence, my guess he did this as he would live through this war and indeed he saved many from starvation during the war because he was well prepared for it.

"During His tour of Europe and North America from 1911 to 1913, ‘Abdu’l-Baha often described Europe as on the brink of war. “The time is two years hence, when only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe,” He said in an October 1912 talk. “By 1917 kingdoms will fall and cataclysms will rock the earth.”

Here is a link to some of the press released at the time as well.

Remembering ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s call for unity, a century after World War I | BWNS

So we know that many convulsions will rock the world that will lead us to a most great convulsion. When during this process the Governments will get together, is not known, but they will and so we can assume it is after an event that forces that direction, as no one seems willing to do it while they think they can dominate.

All the best CJ, the ride wil get a lot rougher yet, we may not survive, I see many in American cities will not. Shoghi Effendi warned us to get out of the cities and disperse around the world, he said that was for the good of the Faith and not our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[night912]

I do not see anywhere in the post that you were responding to where I said I do not judge anyone. I did say I believe it is wrong to judge according to my beliefs but I did not say I never judge anyone.

Trailblazer said: The other problem is when people think that they know how another person arrived at their belief when they don’t know the half of it. According to my beliefs, it is wrong to judge other people and call them names such as irrational, illogical and unreasonable. That is also a Christian belief, judge not lest ye be judged. Why are people compelled to do this? I see no other reason why people would criticize another person except ego: I am right and you are wrong, so the other person has to be labeled wrong in order for the criticizer to be right.

Trailblazer said: It does not make any difference what I say about myself because you do not believe me anyway.
You have already decided you know all about me but you don't know me from Adam.

I thought you were different from some atheists on this forum but that just goes to show that I can be wrong.

And that's what I wanted to know.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sure go ahead

Thank you, and if you do not read anything else, do take the time to read this and also look at the links to the newspaper articles.

Spoiler: Abdu'lbaha Predicts War

Remembering ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s call for unity, a century after World War I | BWNS

This will also will indicate why we give someone like Abdu'lbaha our dedication of service to humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry to say, but there are no prophecies that say it will be the Messiah who actually 'establishes' peace on earth. Rather, the prophecies say that peace will be established and that will happen during the messianic age.

Okay, which verses say it will happen during the messianic age? And I suppose the Messiah comes at the beginning of the age? If so, what does he do?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, which verses say it will happen during the messianic age? And I suppose the Messiah comes at the beginning of the age? If so, what does he do?

Gives us a Message of peace and the way we must live to obtain to that peace.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, which verses say it will happen during the messianic age? And I suppose the Messiah comes at the beginning of the age? If so, what does he do?

Here is something I just found in my Jewish Subjects folder\:

IndigoChild5559 said:
Let's just pick one messianic prophecy to start with. The Messiah is to usher in an era of worldwide peace between the nations. "And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Isaiah 2:4

This simply has not happened yet. since the time of Jesus, we have had 2000 years of international warfare. Nor did Jesus act as a judge between the nations. The same could be said of the Baha'u'llah -- he did not usher in an era of worldwide peace.

So I'm sorry -- the two of them simply don't qualify as Messiah. At least, not the Messiah prophesied by the Tanakh.

It always helps to look at the context of the verse you are citing:

Isaiah 2
1 the word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Trailblazer said: So it shall come to pass in the last days that he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The verse says that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more" but it does not say when that will happen. An age is a period of time. Nowhere in any scriptures does it say that peace will be established during the lifetime of the Messiah, and nowhere in scriptures does it say when during the last days world peace would be established.

Baha'is believe that the last days were ushered in by the coming of the Messiah (Baha'u'llah), so we are living in the last days now, also referred to as the Messianic Age. Baha'u'llah has ushered in an "age" of worldwide peace. During this age, world peace will be established and all the prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled will be fulfilled.

 

[Truthseeker]

To me, if the writers knew and meant for them to be taken allegorically, they should have made that clear.

I have no opinion on the resurrection. There does seem to be discrepancies between each of the gospels. That might indicate there is a source behind the stories that has been allegorized in different ways. Or it might mean there is nothing there behind the stories. You decide for yourself. For myself, I see no reason I have decide this in this life.

I might point out it is not clear in a number of places, and Jesus doesn't bother to make it clear in what He says pretty often. He is testing future generations when he does this. If you read the Kitab-i-Iqan or Book of Certitude Baha'u'llah expounds on this: read it!

 

[Truthseeker]

And that's the problem the "true" seeker finds whatever truth they are looking into... whether the Baha'i Faith or any other religion or even some religious cult. And that's the other problem. They go all-in to what that religion teaches as true.

There's truth in every religion. Christianity, Islam, Baha'i or whatever.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because the believers make claims that can't be tested by using vague terms and relying on feeling things in the heart. They deliberately keep religion unfalsifiable.

Believers don't keep religion unfalsifiable. Religion can only be proven true or false by individual investigation and research, and can only be proven true or false to oneself, not universally.

Because if the claims were true, why would they want to keep them from being tested? I would think they would love the chance to show that their religious beliefs actually work.

Nobody is trying to prevent you from testing religious beliefs. If you think there is a way to test religious beliefs come up with a method.

But the thing is this. We can conduct experiments to test the theory of gravity, and we can gather clear objective evidence that gravity works the way the theory describes. It's not proof, but it is a huge amount of data that can be tested by anyone, and which gives completely consistent results.

Religion doesn't have this. Religion can't be tested in any objective way, the results that one person gets can't be tested by anyone else, and lots of different people who have put religion to their own subjective tests have gotten results that vary widely.

That's right, but what do you think can be done about that?

And I've also explained that that's only because any other claim would leave us with a testable claim that would clearly fail. This is what I was talking about when I said how believers have ways of explaining away anything that doesn't work so as to keep religion unfalsifiable.

How about the claim given by Mark 16:17-18?

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
​

These are also testable claims, and they have been held to be literally true by believers. And yet many of those believers have put them to the test and failed. Unfortunately, their failure has meant that they were bitten by deadly snakes and they died.

I do not believe they are literally true and I see no way they could ever be tested. You'd have better luck testing something that Baha'ulah wrote, at least it is pragmatic. I have tested that and it worked for me. Make an effort and then see what happens.

“Whoso maketh efforts for Us,” he shall enjoy the blessings conferred by the words: “In Our Ways shall We assuredly guide him.”” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 266-267

I don't see how you can claim it is verification when you then turn around and say that the methods are different.

It's like if I had a dream I had a million dollars in my bank account, I could say that I verified it. I don't need to actually CHECK my account balance. I've verified it in my mind, and that's good enough! So I'm a millionaire, regardless!

No, that is not the same at all. Having a dream does not verify anything. You are unconscious when dreaming so your conscious mind is not working to verify anything. Anything could come out in a dream and it does not mean it is true. I am talking about using your rational mind and making a concerted effort to determine if the belief is true by research and study. That is how you verify a religious belief.

Again, we've known about coronaviruses for about a century. Why do you think that vaccines for them have only been worked on for the last year or so? That's like claiming that a new car's airbags aren't safe because they only started designing the car a year ago and concluding that they only started working on the airbag technology then as well.

It does not count that we knew about coronaviruses. The vaccines for Covid-19 are new and they have not been tested enough.

My point is that the only reason people say that is because any other position on what it means would lead to the conclusion that the belief is wrong.

Any other position would be ludicrous.

However, as I have pointed out many times already and has been apparently either ignored or forgotten, the scientific method has measures in place to reduce or even eliminate any individuals fallibility by having other people check it (so any biases from one person can be detected and removed) and most importantly, put to the test.

When it comes to religious beliefs, you have freely admitted that these can't be done.

That's right, so what can be done about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Every faith claims that their holy texts proves that their faith is true.

AGAIN, I was not saying that text proves the religion is true, I was saying it proves that the Baha'i Faith teaches that ALL religions are true. If you read it you would understand what I mean.

Yes, that is true.

That's why I use the only method we know of to reduce and eliminate any personal biases. It's called science.

AGAIN, the scientific method cannot be used to verify a religion. We are going in circles.

That's not the part of my post I was talking about.

I was talking about the bit where you said, "Of course I believe in the evidence that supports what I believe." The clear implication there was that you believe the evidence that supports what you believe, and you DISBELIEVE the evidence that contradicts what you believe. Thus, confirmation bias.

It would not be evidence for what I believe if it did not SUPPORT what I believe. I do not believe evidence that contradicts what I believe because I have already determined that what I believe is true. I am not looking at evidence to determine if my belief is true. I did that work a long time ago so I already know that my belief is true true.

But you don't have verifiable evidence. What verifiable evidence have you presented that I have argued against?

The facts surrounding the Revelation of Baha'u'llah.

The burden of proof rests on the person who makes the claim. If you say there is a God, it is up to you to support it.

Baha'u'llah made the claim so He had the burden and He met the burden by telling us what the evidence is that supports His claim.

The claim that we can only get infallible knowledge from the Holy Spirit is not supported. Anyone can make a similar statement like that, doesn't mean it is true.

I can agree with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then let me point out that the smallness of the Baha'i faith means it is not likely to be the 'one true religion' given how small it is "compared to the larger religions such as Christianity and Islam." It is not likely to be the only one true religion, as Baha'is believe, since no loving God would single out a small handful of people as His chosen people and leave the rest of the world standing out in the cold.

That position is not valid because:

1. All religions are small in the beginning, and
2. Baha'is don't claim to have the ONE true religion, we believe that ALL the religions are true. We do not believe we are chosen but rather we are the small handful of believers who have chosen to believe in Baha'u'llah.

Yet you are perfectly happy to use how large a religion is to declare that it's false.

When did I do that?

Why is it untenable? Why do you think it is impossible for some religious beliefs to just be wrong?

I think that many religious beliefs are just wrong because the older religions have been changed and corrupted by man. However, what was initially revealed by all the Messengers of God was true.