Righteousness

[IndigoChild5559]

I accept that there is righteousness under the Law. This is man's righteousness and it is based on what people DO. Yes, righteous men do exist under the law. Saul of Tarsus was one such righteous man. As a believer, Paul says that he was 'blameless' before the law.

According to scripture, the righteousness of God is not a work, but a gift. It is given by Christ to those who follow him in faith, and is not earned. The righteousness of God is the Spirit of Christ, the grace of God.

Yeah, I don't buy for a second the idea of receiving righteousness as a gift. Righteous describes the manner in which you live and do things. It has nothing to do with whether you assent to a list of beliefs.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I gotcha.

Hmmm... Is there any real difference if someone disregards god's commands but acts in a way that aligns with them by the innate nature of the person's personal values? I know that may seem like a trivial question, but in the Christian faith there is that whole "join my team or burn in hell" thing.

If someone is living in disregard of God's commands, then obedience is not one of their personal values.

If you are getting into a related (but different) subject of whether knowledge of good and evil is innate, I would say that for most people that is the case (psychopaths are an obvious exception). But it is a limited understanding.

1. People tend to rationalize that what is wrong for others is okay in their unique circumstance.

2. Study of ethics helps the conscience to grow.

3. There are obligations on Israel that are not moral laws. There is nothing morally "good" about eating kosher. Non-Jews can eat all the bacon they want and are not sinning. But eschewing pork is still required of Jews. This sort of thing is obviously not innately known, but has to be learned via study of the Torah.

 

[Heyo]

I made a post about the Islamic or rather, "Quranic" word used for righteousness and its natural meaning with no religious baggage.

Religious interpretation of the word is "God conscious". The simple Fusha atturath or the classical language meaning of the word is explained in that post just succinctly. #26

It loses much in translation doesn't it? In German, that what is "righteous" in English is "Gerecht" which is "just".

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It loses much in translation doesn't it? In German, that what is "righteous" in English is "Gerecht" which is "just".

That's not really accurate, as it is acceptable to translate gerecht as righteous in this context.

 

[Heyo]

That's not really accurate, as it is acceptable to translate gerecht as righteous in this context.

And only in this (religious) context.
That's the crux with translations. There are two words in English ("just" and "righteous") where German has only one ("gerecht"). Without knowing the context "gerecht" would be translated to "just".

 

[firedragon]

It loses much in translation doesn't it? In German, that what is "righteous" in English is "Gerecht" which is "just".

If you read the post I gave you, it explains better or in more detail. I will give it again.

#26

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And only in this (religious) context.
That's the crux with translations. There are two words in English ("just" and "righteous") where German has only one ("gerecht"). Without knowing the context "gerecht" would be translated to "just".

Righteous, just, fair, gerecht translates to that, with justice being "gerechtigkeit."
And just as in "just a bit," that's a different word (gerade).

 

[Brian2]

Why would a morality imposed by a deity be objective? it seems like it would be arbitrary based on what that deity wants. Why should we care?

Instead, there are those that think that true morality is based on how people interact with other people to promote human well-being.

The morality with the Biblical God is based on how people interact with other people to promote human well being. It is called 'love'.
The basis of love however is in the character of God and how what He says is right or wrong.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yeah, I don't buy for a second the idea of receiving righteousness as a gift. Righteous describes the manner in which you live and do things. It has nothing to do with whether you assent to a list of beliefs.

Then you don't believe that Abraham was counted righteous based on his faith?

 

[Brian2]

Jer 23:6 “Behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD,
“That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness;
A King shall reign and prosper,
And execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:
THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

[Polymath257]

The morality with the Biblical God is based on how people interact with other people to promote human well being. It is called 'love'.
The basis of love however is in the character of God and how what He says is right or wrong.

An interesting theory. My view is that we are a species of social ape. That means we have a sense of fairness and of compassion. And those are the basis of our morality.

Over time, we have applied those concepts to larger and larger groups of people: first in the tribe, then in a nation, and now to the world as a whole. That is moral progress.

I don't see where any deity needs to be involved for this to happen.

 

[Brian2]

An interesting theory. My view is that we are a species of social ape. That means we have a sense of fairness and of compassion. And those are the basis of our morality.

Over time, we have applied those concepts to larger and larger groups of people: first in the tribe, then in a nation, and now to the world as a whole. That is moral progress.

I don't see where any deity needs to be involved for this to happen.

We also incorporate ideas in our morality which no doubt are not morally good.
God's morality has had a tendency to bring us back on track at times, just as it has a tendency to change societies in the past to bring them more in line with God's morality.

 

[Polymath257]

We also incorporate ideas in our morality which no doubt are not morally good.
God's morality has had a tendency to bring us back on track at times, just as it has a tendency to change societies in the past to bring them more in line with God's morality.

It is far more common that religious morality has held back moral progress and committed atrocities. From slavery (religiously advocated and supported), to genocide (amerindians needed to be 'saved' by 'good christians'), to suppression of women (husbands can't rape wives), to denigration of gays (worthy of death). All of these have solid foundation in religious traditions and religious writings.

 

[Brian2]

It is far more common that religious morality has held back moral progress and committed atrocities. From slavery (religiously advocated and supported), to genocide (amerindians needed to be 'saved' by 'good christians'), to suppression of women (husbands can't rape wives), to denigration of gays (worthy of death). All of these have solid foundation in religious traditions and religious writings.

Nothing in what Jesus taught of morality imo has been surpassed, so there has been no progress.
People have committed atrocities and it has been the steady moral compass that has brought people back.
When Jesus came He and His disciples weren't out to protest the status quo, just to teach the right way to live and spread the gospel.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy then and accepted as such but equality and love between all people has been taught by the gospel and has spread to the world with plenty of hiccups, even in the Church that said they taught what Jesus taught.
Christian writers have no doubt polluted the message with their ideas and their ideas are firmly spoken against in the gospel message imo.

 

[Polymath257]

Nothing in what Jesus taught of morality imo has been surpassed, so there has been no progress.
People have committed atrocities and it has been the steady moral compass that has brought people back.
When Jesus came He and His disciples weren't out to protest the status quo, just to teach the right way to live and spread the gospel.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy then and accepted as such but equality and love between all people has been taught by the gospel and has spread to the world with plenty of hiccups, even in the Church that said they taught what Jesus taught.
Christian writers have no doubt polluted the message with their ideas and their ideas are firmly spoken against in the gospel message imo.

Exactly where did Jesus preach against slavery?

 

[1213]

What is 'righteousness', in your opinion?

How is (your idea of) righteousness achieved?...

I think righteousness is what Bible tells it is. and I have understood that it is basically right understanding, wisdom of the just, that comes visible in righteous actions. Like for example said in these:

…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Yahweh, who shall dwell in your sanctuary? Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart; He who doesn't slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his friend, Nor casts slurs against his fellow man; In whose eyes a vile man is despised, But who honors those who fear Yahweh; He who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and doesn't change; He who doesn't lend out his money for usury, Nor take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be shaken. A Poem by David.
Ps. 15:1-5

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, But the perverse tongue will be cut off. The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, But the mouth of the wicked is perverse.
Pro. 10:31-32

The thoughts of the righteous are just, But the advice of the wicked is deceitful… … A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel… … A righteous person is cautious in friendship, But the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Pro. 12:5,10,26

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

I believe the righteousness can be achieved for example by hearing what Jesus told. His words can cause the change in persons innermost to righteous.

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Nothing in what Jesus taught of morality imo has been surpassed, so there has been no progress.
People have committed atrocities and it has been the steady moral compass that has brought people back.
When Jesus came He and His disciples weren't out to protest the status quo, just to teach the right way to live and spread the gospel.
Slavery was an accepted part of the economy then and accepted as such but equality and love between all people has been taught by the gospel and has spread to the world with plenty of hiccups, even in the Church that said they taught what Jesus taught.
Christian writers have no doubt polluted the message with their ideas and their ideas are firmly spoken against in the gospel message imo.

Jesus didn't abolish slavery. No, we humans advanced morality and now slavery is banned throughout the world.
The Messiah was supposed to end wars. Europe being Christianized didn't help. But, as we moved further away from god amd quit turning to an ancient book of superstitions we've far fewer wars, to the point for so much of the world our chances of dying from a violent act or war has never been lower.
Jesus does not allow for freedom of religion, and no surprise when we consider there are punishments (including death) for violating and leaving the faith. Humans advanced morality and now we have freedom of religion.
We had kings with a "divine right to rule" that was mandated by Jehovah when Europe was very Christian. But we advanced morality, did away with that lunacy, and now we have liberal democracies with elections, which also helped bring more political and social stability.
The Bible is very much into punishment, and prescribes death for many offenses. We advanced morality by abandoning the nonsense of "eye for an eye," by realizing emotional demands and wants are not justice, and bringing about the concept punishment should be proportionate to the crime.
We also have domestic abuse and child abuse laws. There is no more selling your children into slavery. There is no more beating them with a rod. There is no more killing them for being rebellious.

 

[Etritonakin]

What is 'righteousness', in your opinion?

How is (your idea of) righteousness achieved?

Does it matter if you fail to achieve (your idea of) righteousness?

Given that RFs reflect a spectrum of thought, l'm interested to hear a wide range of views on this issue.

Literally... doing things the right way -to allow for existence and creation without conflict.
Personally, I base it on the ten commandments -then apply them by case/circumstance.

Most of the commandments are obviously "right" -as universal adherence would obviously make the Earth a wonderful place.
The first few are not so obvious -but the principles would still apply even if "everything" was not self-aware.
Acknowledging and revering "the most high" as the most high -the reference for all else -the truth of reality as basis for decision -is logical.
Thou shalt take a day off is a no-brainer, but a doing so with specific frequency is akin to getting enough sleep.

Otherwise.... God can offer a hand up to immortality/invulnerability -and all his knowledge/ability.
Observing a specific day to remember how it all began for us -and that God is working out a wonderful plan -is being grounded in history.
It is also a reminder of where we are in the "week' of God's plan -a thousand years as a day
-the sabbath picturing when this mess will end and we will rest from our labor in this time ("It is an irksome task men have been given to do under the sun").
It also is a reminder to "watch and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which must surely come to pass".
We're nearing Friday evening in that plan -and just before that sabbath is the worst time of trouble the world will ever know,
Understanding the reason for it will help greatly during that time -and a great multitude will turn to God during that time -to be made immortal at the first resurrection when Christ returns!

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think righteousness is what Bible tells it is. and I have understood that it is basically right understanding, wisdom of the just, that comes visible in righteous actions. Like for example said in these:

…He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

Yahweh, who shall dwell in your sanctuary? Who shall live on your holy hill? He who walks blamelessly does what is right, And speaks truth in his heart; He who doesn't slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his friend, Nor casts slurs against his fellow man; In whose eyes a vile man is despised, But who honors those who fear Yahweh; He who keeps an oath even when it hurts, and doesn't change; He who doesn't lend out his money for usury, Nor take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be shaken. A Poem by David.
Ps. 15:1-5

The wicked borrow, and don't pay back, But the righteous give generously.
Ps. 37:21

The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, But the perverse tongue will be cut off. The lips of the righteous know what is acceptable, But the mouth of the wicked is perverse.
Pro. 10:31-32

The thoughts of the righteous are just, But the advice of the wicked is deceitful… … A righteous man regards the life of his animal, But the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel… … A righteous person is cautious in friendship, But the way of the wicked leads them astray.
Pro. 12:5,10,26

A righteous man hates lies, But a wicked man brings shame and disgrace… … The light of the righteous shines brightly, But the lamp of the wicked is snuffed out.
Pro. 13:5,9

There are those who covet greedily all the day long; But the righteous give and don't withhold.
Pro. 21:26

The righteous care about justice for the poor. The wicked aren't concerned about knowledge.
Pro. 29:7

For a righteous man falls seven times, and rises up again; But the wicked are overthrown by calamity.
Pro. 24:16

I believe the righteousness can be achieved for example by hearing what Jesus told. His words can cause the change in persons innermost to righteous.

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

Do you see a difference between the righteousness of man and the righteousness of God? Is there a difference between righteousness under the law, and righteousness under grace?

To my understanding, there is a difference.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Literally... doing things the right way -to allow for existence and creation without conflict.
Personally, I base it on the ten commandments -then apply them by case/circumstance.

Most of the commandments are obviously "right" -as universal adherence would obviously make the Earth a wonderful place.
The first few are not so obvious -but the principles would still apply even if "everything" was not self-aware.
Acknowledging and revering "the most high" as the most high -the reference for all else -the truth of reality as basis for decision -is logical.
Thou shalt take a day off is a no-brainer, but a doing so with specific frequency is akin to getting enough sleep.

Otherwise.... God can offer a hand up to immortality/invulnerability -and all his knowledge/ability.
Observing a specific day to remember how it all began for us -and that God is working out a wonderful plan -is being grounded in history.
It is also a reminder of where we are in the "week' of God's plan -a thousand years as a day
-the sabbath picturing when this mess will end and we will rest from our labor in this time ("It is an irksome task men have been given to do under the sun").
It also is a reminder to "watch and pray that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which must surely come to pass".
We're nearing Friday evening in that plan -and just before that sabbath is the worst time of trouble the world will ever know,
Understanding the reason for it will help greatly during that time -and a great multitude will turn to God during that time -to be made immortal at the first resurrection when Christ returns!

I'm totally in agreement with you on the week of God's plan. Jews were aware of this plan well before the Christian era, I believe. The Messiah's delay was put down to sin.

IMO, Christ is the righteousness of God because he fulfilled the law in all its aspects, outwardly and inwardly.