ALL have sinned.

[Redemptionsong]

The Hebrew scriptures portray God as Holy and without defect.

Deuteronomy 32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'

The Greek New Testament tells us about Jesus Christ 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' [1 Peter 2:22] The book of Hebrews adds that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

The New Testament also tells us about the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father and Son. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I [Jesus] will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

 

[Altfish]

The Hebrew scriptures portray God as Holy and without defect.

Deuteronomy 32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'

The Greek New Testament tells us about Jesus Christ 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' [1 Peter 2:22] The book of Hebrews adds that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

The New Testament also tells us about the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father and Son. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I [Jesus] will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

The religious meaning of 'sin' is almost like a threat. "You've sinned so you must repent"

I've done bad thing, I've apologised, tried to compensate if appropriate and learnt from my mistake.
Why bring a god into it?

 

[ChristineM]

Sin is a religious concept and meaningless to those who don't believe gods exist. Us poor unguided people have to rely on our personal view of right and wrong and human morality.

 

[Windwalker]

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

A God who is Holy and Perfect, creates humans, and then that makes us all sinners? The logic of this escapes me.

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

I don't think your line of reasoning makes sense. We should use the eyes of critical reasoning, as well as the eyes of faith. No where do we find in scripture that faith means denying reason.

While it is true that the heart must connect with God through faith, nowhere do we find we are to go against reason as an expression of faith. Yet we find anti-intellectualism rampant amongst certain kinds of "believers". Why? Is that type of faith actually just an escape from using their minds responsibly?

Isn't that a disservice to true faith? Shouldn't the believer, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind"? If you deny the mind, isn't that failing that very first commandment of Jesus to all believers?

 

[stvdv]

to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

My thoughts:

1) God is above all duality (pleasing or not)

2) A big sin is claiming "I am a sinner"

3) A bigger sin is claiming "All are sinners"

 

[Redemptionsong]

A God who is Holy and Perfect, creates humans, and then that makes us all sinners? The logic of this escapes me.


I don't think your line of reasoning makes sense. We should use the eyes of critical reasoning, as well as the eyes of faith. No where do we find in scripture that faith means denying reason.

While it is true to the heart must connect with God through faith, nowhere do we find we are to go against reason as an expression of faith. Yet we find anti-intellectualism rampant amongst certain kinds of "believers". Why? Is that type of faith actually just an escape from using their minds responsibly? Isn't that a disservice to true faith? Shouldn't the believer worship God with his whole "mind, body, and spirit"? Anti-rationality rejects the mind.

I have not suggested that critical reasoning is wrong. I have said that one cannot please God without faith.

 

[sun rise]

Sin is a religious concept

for some religions.

For Buddhists it would be much more like acting in a way that brings more suffering, for example. From Eastern religion, acting in a certain way will bring on suffering (negative karma) but that's a bit different than the Christian idea of sinning.

To me, this is much more positively viewed as we might view a child learning to ride a bicycle. If the child falls off and scrapes a knee, we would not call that a "sin" but a learning experience. So to me we'd be much better off if we considered adults doing something analogous in the same way rather than applying the pejorative word "sin".

 

[Redemptionsong]

The religious meaning of 'sin' is almost like a threat. "You've sinned so you must repent"

I've done bad thing, I've apologised, tried to compensate if appropriate and learnt from my mistake.
Why bring a god into it?

I wouldn't say that sin is a threat, more a realisation brought about by the perfection of true holiness.

King David described himself as a 'worm' when realising the glory of God. What does that make the rest of us?

 

[sun rise]

I have said that one cannot please God without faith.

My understanding is that God looks at deeds. From this, an honorable atheist who does her or his duty and tries to help people is noted as being better than those who claim faith.

 

[Windwalker]

I have not suggested that critical reasoning is wrong. I have said that one cannot please God without faith.

Can any believer please God if they are denying, let's say everything that modern science says about how life evolved on this planet? Is that what faith is supposed to look like?

I still don't get how pointing out how God is holy, makes us sinners though. I think logically, if God is Holy, then so are we if God created us. Holy God, holy creation.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Sin is a religious concept and meaningless to those who don't believe gods exist. Us poor unguided people have to rely on our personal view of right and wrong and human morality.

This is an interesting point. All Christians were at some time unbelievers. If sin is not something one 'realises' then how can anyone come to repentance and faith?

 

[ChristineM]

This is an interesting point. All Christians were at some time unbelievers. If sin is not something one 'realises' then how can anyone come to repentance and faith?

As @Altfish said, it's a threat, become a christian take the load that comes with the title.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Can any believer please God if they are denying, let's say everything that modern science says about how life evolved on this planet? Is that what faith is supposed to look like?

I still don't get how pointing out how God is holy, makes us sinners though. I think logically, if God is Holy, then so are we if God created us. Holy God, holy creation.

Do you think you are perfect? Clearly God is perfect, so anyone who falls short of perfection falls short of God.

Creation takes many forms, many of which were not designed to act morally. We, as moral creatures with free will, are in a position to act according to God's Ten Commandments.

Are we also able to act in a loving manner at all times?

 

[Redemptionsong]

My understanding is that God looks at deeds. From this, an honorable atheist who does her or his duty and tries to help people is noted as being better than those who claim faith.

This sounds nice but my understanding of scripture is that God looks at the heart.

Why else would Jesus tell his hearers not to look upon a woman with lust? When a person 'lusts' what have they done wrong?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Sin is a religious concept and meaningless to those who don't believe gods exist. Us poor unguided people have to rely on our personal view of right and wrong and human morality.

"Our personal view of right and wronf" is why there is so much crime and hate in the world today. The person robbing a liquor store does not think it is wrong. The person who hates someone because his race or religion is different does not think it is wrong. There must be one set of rules that apply to everyone and only God can make rules that are fair to everyone.

 

[Redemptionsong]

My thoughts:

1) God is above all duality (pleasing or not)

2) A big sin is claiming "I am a sinner"

3) A bigger sin is claiming "All are sinners"

Are you suggesting you do nothing wrong? Against whose standards is your behaviour to be judged?

 

[Windwalker]

Do you think you are perfect? Clearly God is perfect, so anyone who falls short of perfection falls short of God.

You said God is Holy, therefore we are sinners. That does not follow. If God is Holy, and God created us in his image, then so are we.

Are you equating "perfect" with Holy? What does "perfect" mean to you? Inerrant? Is that possible for any human being? Yet, doesn't scripture tell us to be perfect? Maybe perfect does not mean inerrant?

Creation takes many forms, many of which were not designed to act morally. We, as moral creatures with free will, are in a position to act according to God's Ten Commandments.

According to Jesus, if you walk in Love, you automatically fulfill all 613 commandments, not just 10.

Are we also able to act in a loving manner at all times?

Yes we are able to do that. Jesus did that, and he also told his followers "Go and sin no more". Was he sending them on a fool's-errand, setting them up to fail? Or did he believe they actually could? I side with the latter view.

 

[ChristineM]

"Our personal view of right and wronf" is why there is so much crime and hate in the world today. The person robbing a liquor store does not think it is wrong. The person who hates someone because his race or religion is different does not think it is wrong. There must be one set of rules that apply to everyone and only God can make rules that are fair to everyone.

Quite wrong. Our own personal view of right and wrong helped build the civilisation that allowed religion to flourish?

In a survey of American prisoners it was found that there were more christian inmates than the population average. And considerably fewer atheists inmates than the population average... Makes you think eh?

I believe the person robbing the liqueur store knows its wrong but hopes not to get caught.

The crime rate, divorce rate, teenager pregnancy rate and rate of sti"s is higher in bible belt country than elsewhere.

Only your god can make the rules that suite you, not everyone.

 

[SigurdReginson]

Meh... Different religions have different lists of different sins. I used to work for a guy who would lament that every American was going to hell because they had all eaten beef.

I don't see why we need to take the concept of "sin" all that seriously. Laws of the land seem to do just fine at curbing bad behavior, and it's a lot easier to amend or change laws than sins.

 

[Windwalker]

This sounds nice but my understanding of scripture is that God looks at the heart.

Which is why an atheist may be deemed more righteous than a 'true believer' who professes faith his with mouth, but his deeds betray his lack of faith. The non-believing atheist, may "enter the kingdom of God" before the believer, just as Jesus said about tax collectors and prostitutes going in ahead of the religious in this verse: Matt. 21:31

Why else would Jesus tell his hearers not to look upon a woman with lust? When a person 'lusts' what have they done wrong?

Jesus said that to disabuse the religious righteous of their views they were pleasing to God by keeping the letter of the law so well, like we see in those believers who wag their tongues at the 'lost' today in so many churches.

Jesus was saying, 'you think you're righteous? While you may not be murdering your brother in the flesh, you are killing him in your heart. While you don't cheat on your spouse in the body, you are in your heart. So don't delude yourself into imagining you are pleasing to God. Your heart is sinning.'

The source of sin is the heart. So a pure heart, is what God seeks. And phooey to professions of faith with the lips. That's why he said it. It's relatively easy to not do something forbidden. It's not so easy to not be that thing in your heart. The latter is the true measure of faith, not 'rules keeping'.