Faith

[Valjean]

I think faithfulness is the evidence of things not seen.

Well, that's all well and good, but without some tangible, measurable, basis for a thing, there is no "evidence." Evidence implies empirical support.

Hope, faith, knowledge -- degrees of belief/confidence. Houses built in the sky, on sand or on rock.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

Different people mean different things by faith. Some just mean belief, or trust. "I have faith that the Sun will come up tomorrow."

That's fine in informal chat among like-minded friends, but in serious epistemic discussion, questioning how? or why,? faith -- in the sense of "I believe" or "I trust" -- answers neither of these, and doesn't really advance the discussion.

I understand that you believe, and what you believe, but I'm interested in why you believe; the evidence and reasoning underlying your "faith."
Without an evidentiary foundation, "faith" is unsupported belief.

Dear Valjean

I understand your above question and why the reasonings of others may at times intrigue you enough to ask it, but I wonder whether you consider yourself open or shut in your questioning?

For instance, should someone claim that their faith is based on personal experience, would you accept and respect that, or would you judge them by your own beliefs, call them mad and insist that theirs were unfounded beliefs?


Humbly
Hermit

 

[Valjean]

I guess that belief in God is something that is offered and either accepted or rejected.

Doesn't an offer presuppose an offerer? Presupposing an offerer begs the question. It's circular reasoning.
Begging the question - Wikipedia

 

[Valjean]

Dear Valjean

I understand your above question and why the reasonings of others may at times intrigue you enough to ask it, but I wonder whether you consider yourself open or shut in your questioning?

I try to accept he logical conclusion of the best evidence'. This, of course, presumes some actual evidence.

For instance, should someone claim that their faith is based on personal experience, would you accept and respect that, or would you judge them by your own beliefs, call them mad and insist that theirs were unfounded beliefs?

Believe it or not, I would. In fact, I hold some beliefs, myself, without empirical evidence. But I recognize them as unfounded, and wouldn't expect others to accept them, all unevidenced. In fact, I'd suspect anyone who accepted my beliefs unquestioned of being a fool.

It's not often I get serious, insightful questions, Hermit. Thanks.

 

[Psalm23]

People do not pretend to believe, they either believe or they don't believe.

In certain cases I believe one can pretend such as in a attempt to be apart of a group or fit in. That can be one motivation for pretending faith. However this is not true faith.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Or it can be for money.

@Valjean . there is a '[' missing in your [/QUOTE] in your post above. And remove [/QUOTE] at the end of the post.

 

[Valjean]

or belief we trust because of the evidence.

Wouldn't that be "knowledge?"
Knowledge has a higher degree of confidence than faith.

 

[Psalm23]

There can be other reasons for pretending a belief.

I understand that in some cases people may pretend a belief. One example would be as to fit in with a group of peers. I don’t see this as true faith. Though this post brought to mind a question for me. What differences show between faking a belief and truly believing?

 

[Valjean]

@Valjean . there is a '[' missing in your

in your post above. And remove [/QUOTE] at the end of the post. [/QUOTE]
Yes, I went back and reformatted the whole thing.
How a post comes out when I click "post," is always something of a mystery. I'm not really very skilled with computers. They seem to have minds of their own.

 

[Valjean]

We have to have faith in more than God in our daily life.
Yesterday I put my faith in my veterinarian and she came through.
Faith is trust.

But aren't there degrees of trust, based on evidence? Wouldn't a DVM have more evidence of competence than your next door neighbor?

I think faith is when we cannot have absolute certainty but have reasons to trust.

Good point. But the question remains: what are the reasons for trust, the evidentiary foundations?

My trust in the Messenger of God I believe in is also based on evidence, even though it is a different kind of evidence.

15 Types of Evidence and How to Use Them

But aren't some types of "evidence" more reliable than others?

 

[Valjean]

Trusting in something without skepticism. For example,taking a chance of loving another despite being hurt in the past. Making a spiritual conviction your life would be based on without knowing where it would lead.

Taking a gamble or going out ones comfort zone...maybe to make oneself a better person and grateful.

Good point, but wouldn't that be a massive gamble, from some perspectives?
In Hinduism, for example, it might have little consequence, since Krishna says it matters not what God you pray to, it's always he who answers. But in Christianity, where noöne comes to God but through Jesus, it's a life or death decision; a gamble with Heaven vs Hell.

I should think a seeker from an Abrahamic tradition would undertake a massive research and analysis project before reaching a conclusion.

 

[Valjean]

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” or: “trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove.”

Poetic gobbledygook.
How is faith "assurance?" How, as unevidenced, unseen belief, is it "conviction?
If something's unseen, what evidence warrants belief?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Well, that's all well and good, but without some tangible, measurable, basis for a thing, there is no "evidence." Evidence implies empirical support.

Context. Evidence doesn't imply empirical support unless its empirical evidence, and what I mean here (which I hope is plain) faithfulness is evidence of effort just like bitcoin or a house that's been built. Someone who's made the effort is different from someone who has not, and that is evidence. They're different from someone who is all talk.

If someone saves a life at great risk to their own we call them heroes. If someone turns their life around, gives up addictions we call that impressive. Their actions are evidences but not empirical evidences.

Hope, faith, knowledge -- degrees of belief/confidence. Houses built in the sky, on sand or on rock.

Two of them are irrelevant but not hope. Hope is relevant and evidenced by its occasionally effectiveness. Some times hope keeps people going when there is no evidence that there is any point. It doesn't always, but it is a positive trait.

 

[Valjean]

To me faith is to believe in proofs even if they are not physical proofs, there are hidden signs (beyond physical senses) and reasoning testifies to a lot beyond physical.

How are you defining "proof?"

 

[Valjean]

Who determines what constitutes good evidence? Who specifies that?

Epistemology and logic.
Is the evidence tangible, observable, measurable, testable, predictive, reproducible?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Poetic gobbledygook.
How is faith "assurance?" How, as unevidenced, unseen belief, is it "conviction?
If something's unseen, what evidence warrants belief?

You believe in all kinds of things you don't see. We see evidence for God everywhere, in nature and in people, but we don't physically see him. By faith we believe anyway.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How a post comes out when I click "post," is always something of a mystery. I'm not really very skilled with computers. They seem to have minds of their own.

Either you understand computers or come to know by experience. I too learned by experience. It requires a penchant for fiddling which I tend to overdo, and as a result frequently reformat my disks and re-install operating systems.

But Ventoy is a good tool. I have 8 OSs on my 16 GB USB I can add five or six more), so have no problem in reinstalling programs.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You believe in all kinds of things you don't see. We see evidence for God everywhere, in nature and in people, but we don't physically see him. By faith we believe anyway.

God in people? Really? And then they do unimaginable vile things!

 

[Wildswanderer]

God in people? Really? And then they do unimaginable vile things!

Sure. It's called sin.
And many people do kind and selfless things, because we are all made in God's image, but we have that choice.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why did God allow such a state to happen?