Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe unless one is spiritually attuned, one does not know where an idea comes from. However in retrospect having the Holy Spirit, then He can confirm it was His idea.
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
I believe unless one is spiritually attuned, one does not know where an idea comes from. However in retrospect having the Holy Spirit, then He can confirm it was His idea.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe it happens all the time with a Spirit filled Christian. I can see something new in a passage I had read twenty times before without seeing it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If you do not believe what I said is correct then explain why.
Otherwise I think it is time to call it a day on this.
They don't tell me that and I explained why.
They tell you that but you never explained why.
Rather, you believe that God is Triune.
"We" do not have a Triune God because Jesus is not God and the Holy Spirit is not God.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God and the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
Nobody understands the Trinity for a reason, because it makes no sense at all. The Essence of God is beyond comprehension, but what God is should be clear to everyone, and it is clear in the Bible and the Writings of Baha'u'llah -- God is One, not three Persons.
I have the Truth about God because it was revealed by Baha'u'llah and I read what He wrote. Anyone can do that.LOL! And you have “The Truth about God”? Is this really what you’re saying, Tb? Well, this forum must be very glad you’re here, with the truth! Have you written that book yet –
“The Truth about God” by Trailblazer…
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's true.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Pretty confusing stuff. I can see why many here think Jesus coming in his glory is not the 2nd coming but the transfiguration.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I am not interested in cherry-picking, Tb. I believe that you 'look but don't see', and you believe the same about me. So if wish to call it a day, that's fine with me.
It makes sense to me, and to thousands of others. You know, I am believing more and more that the Holy Spirit gives a recognition of the reality of the Trinity to those who have been drawn to the Son by the Father. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day". John 6:24
It is not clear in the Bible that God is One, not three Persons, but it may have seemed clear to B.
But whatever B. thought,
God is One Being, Three Persons.
You are beginning to sound slightly cultish, Tb.I have the Truth about God because it was revealed by Baha'u'llah and I read what He wrote. Anyone can do that.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I'm glad you can see this, SAT.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Oh, me too! The Spirit opens the mind to new truth all the time. It's very refreshing.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I have shown you that Jesus DID say something about justification. It's hardly my fault if you don't understand.The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)
You and I both know that Jesus was not talking about Justification according the Christian theology.
Why not just come clean and admit Jesus did not say anything about Justification?
Ask yourself: Who was justified before God? Why was he justified before God?
Was it because of his faith, or because of good things he was doing? Who was teaching about justification by telling this story?
I think it was Jesus. What do you think?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
To claim that it is true because many people believe it is the fallacy of Argumentum ad populum.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious. For example, there was a time in history when most people did not believe we could ever fly in the air, but most people were wrong, as we found out later.
Not only Christians are led by the Holy Spirit, Baha'is are also led. We are just led in a different direction, but you have no proof that you are led to the truth, you just believe you are. I believe I have been led to all truth that is available from God in this day, because Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth. By contrast, all the truth you have available to you is the Bible, which is missing the truth that Jesus held back.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Don't try to play the B card, because if you are honest you will admit that not all Christians believe in the Trinity, and Jews and people of other religions do not believe in it either, so my belief has nothing to do with Baha'u'llah. The Jews knew long before Baha'u'llah ever came that there was only One True God, not three "Persons" who make up a God. The Jews also knew that Jesus was not God, and that was/is in their favor.
No, cultists do not say: "I have the Truth about God because it was revealed by Baha'u'llah and I read what He wrote."
Belief in Baha'u'llah is no more cultist than belief in Jesus because both of them were Manifestations of God.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The whole point of this parable was that he that humbles himself shall be justified in the eyes of God.
The parable has nothing to do with faith vs. works.
Luke 18
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The Pharisee prayed about how good he was, but the tax collector asked for God's mercy as he was a sinner. ... Jesus said that it was the tax collector who went home justified before God.
The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)
The reason the tax collector went hone justified before God is because he was humble as opposed to the Pharisee who was arrogant.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The tax collector was humble and was in a repentant frame of mind. He was the one justified. The Pharisee was not humble, but was quite proud, and was not justified.
Do you agree that here we have Jesus speaking about justification?
Do you agree that here we have Jesus speaking about justification?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
It's unambiguously Christ in His true glory. Also, whenever He was near a place, the Kingdom was near: Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (and other places)
So, regardless of other events, this event is Christ in His glory, and in His Kingdom. And the 3 witnessed it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not agree that the tax collector in the parable was justified by faith apart from the Law, I believe he was justified by his humility.
One is said to be 'justified by faith apart from works of the Law' (Romans 3:28). ... He further states that those who are justified cannot be separated from the love of Christ (Romans 8:33–39).
Justification (theology) - Wikipedia
Jesus was speaking about justification but not the justification that Paul spoke of in Romans. The sense in which that man was justified is that God considered him righteous because he was humble:
justify: declare or make righteous in the sight of God.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=what+does+justify+mean
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Luke 18
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
The Pharisee prayed about how good he was, but the tax collector asked for God's mercy as he was a sinner. ... Jesus said that it was the tax collector who went home justified before God.
The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)
The reason the tax collector went home justified before God is because he was humble as opposed to the Pharisee who was arrogant.
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samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I feel as though we're not reading the same passage!
The tax collector asked for God's mercy because he knew that he was a sinner needed to be made whole, and that only God could forgive him.
The Pharisee did not believe that He was a sinner. and so could not be justified. It's as clear as day; the tax collector had his faith, and the Pharisee had his works.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I think if you stop with the false assumptions and read more carefully you will realize that I did not “claim that it was true”.
Try to stop using the word ‘proof’ in this context, Tb. You have no proof; I have no proof. If you really think about it, it is utterly impossible to have proof in the area of spirituality.
You say that all the truth I have available to me is the Bible. That is another false assumption. You really ought to watch this tendency of yours, Tb.
The Holy Spirit comes at Pentecost and is eternally present. He is the Third Person of the Trinity and does not morph into a man called Baha'u'llah. (Is it not ironic that a person writing for people of this age cannot use the language used by the people of this age?)
Every cultist says the words “I have the Truth.” Don’t fool yourself, Tb.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Luke 18 King James Version
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
You said: "The Pharisee did not believe that He was a sinner. and so could not be justified." -- That is Christian doctrine speaking, not Jesus. Jesus never said anything about justification by faith alone. That was Paul.
At the end of the parable, Jesus said "for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."
This parable is not about sin or faith vs. works, it is about arrogance vs. humility.
You said: "The tax collector asked for God's mercy because he knew that he was a sinner needed to be made whole, and that only God could forgive him."
The publican knew that he was a sinner and only God could forgive him, but that is not the point of the parable.
The point of the parable is that the publican was justified in the eyes of God because he was humble.
You said: "It's as clear as day; the tax collector had his faith, and the Pharisee had his works."
It might be true that the tax collector had his faith and the Pharisee had his works but that is not what this parable is about.
The parable is about arrogance vs. humility.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
This parable is not about justification by faith vs. works. Below is what it means, exactly what I said it means before I looked on the internet to find out what others thought it means.
The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14)
In this parable, a Pharisee and a tax collector went to the temple to pray. The Pharisee prayed about how good he was, but the tax collector asked for God’s mercy as he was a sinner. Jesus said that it was the tax collector who went home justified before God. He concluded, “Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Background
Tax collectors were hated in biblical times and were regarded as sinners. They were Jews who worked for the Romans, so this made them traitors. People resented paying taxes to the foreigners who ruled over them.
Tax collectors were not paid an actual wage by the Romans, they were expected to take extra money and keep some for themselves. Many tax collectors were dishonest and abused this system by taking far too much.
Understanding the text
Jesus wants to teach people the importance of praying with the right attitude. This parable is aimed at those who think they are very righteous and look down on others – that is, the Pharisees.
Jews had to pray three times a day and people would go to the temple for private prayer.
The Pharisee stood up to pray, which was the usual practice. The Pharisee prayed about himself, informing God of the wrong things he had not done, “I am not like other men – robbers, evil-doers and adulterers”. Then he spoke about the religious practices he had observed, fasting twice a week and giving tithes.The Pharisee thought he was praying, but the only person he was praising was himself.
The tax collector, on the other hand, put his head down and kept hitting himself to show how sorry he was. He knew he was a sinner and he knew he needed God to forgive him. Nobody can be proud of himself in front of God.
The men went home but only the tax collector had pleased God, as he had been humble and asked for forgiveness. A person’s attitude is important to God.
The parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector (Luke 18:9-14) - The teaching of Jesus - CCEA - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - CCEA - BBC Bitesize
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is true, it is utterly impossible to have proof in the area of spirituality, so what the means is all you have are beliefs, just as that is all I have.
That does not negate what I said: “you have no proof that you are led to the truth, you just believe you are.”
Of course that means that you have no proof that God is three persons and you have no proof that Jesus is the only way and nobody can come to the Father but by Jesus, you just believe that is true.
I know that you “believe” that you also have the truth that was revealed to you by the Holy Spirit. But I was only referring to the scriptures you have vs. the scriptures I have.
“all the truth you have available to you is the Bible, which is missing the truth that Jesus held back.” The truth that Jesus held back is in the Writings of Baha’u’llah.
Another belief. I would be careful not state that as if it was fact because if you do you are committing another fallacy, called an argument from ignorance.The Holy Spirit comes at Pentecost and is eternally present. He is the Third Person of the Trinity and does not morph into a man called Baha'u'llah. (Is it not ironic that a person writing for people of this age cannot use the language used by the people of this age?)
Argument from ignorance asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
- true
- false
- unknown between true or false
- being unknowable (among the first three).[1]
* * * * * * * * * *
Aside from that, I never claimed that the Holy Spirit "morphed" into Baha’u’llah.
The following are my beliefs.
The Holy Spirit proceeds only from God. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Jesus and descended upon Jesus as a Dove. The Holy Spirit was sent by God to Baha’u’llah and descended upon Baha’u’llah as a Maiden in the Black Pit prison in 1852 AD.
Having received the Holy Spirit from God, both Jesus and Baha’u’llah brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Comforter and Spirit of truth are just titles for the man who brings the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a Comforter and Baha'u'llah was another Comforter who taught all things and testified of Jesus.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Baha'u'llah was also called the Spirit of truth because He guided us into all truth and He glorified Jesus. He did not speak of Himself, He only spoke what He heard from the Holy Spirit. It was the Holy Spirit speaking through Baha'u'llah that taught us all things, not the man.
John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Don't fool yourself.... Christians say. I have the only truth because Jesus is the Only Way.
That's what cultists say.
By stark contrast, Baha’is do not claim to have the only truth and we do not claim that Baha’u’llah is the Only Way to God. Nothing could be more arrogant.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector (RSV)
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
Sorry, Tb, but you have completely missed the point.
He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other; for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”
No. This is Jesus speaking. To see this one has to read behind the literal words – not easy for some.
It had everything to do with sin. The tax collector was justified by faith, not works. The Pharisee was not justified because he had works, not faith.
Sorry, Tb, but you have completely missed the point.