My view on Jesus.

[Clara Tea]

I have given outlines of my view on Jesus several times in the last three or four weeks. Some people thought interesting, others obviously disagreed and a couple were outright hostile to the idea.

So i thought (yes it has been known) that a discussion thread would be a good idea to post my belief.

I am a full blown atheist with an interest in religion, particularly (for personal reasons) Christianity. I have also studied as a hobby minus/plus 100 years of the fall of the Roman Republic/rise of Empire. Just so you know this won't be a theological discussion but will have historical contexts based on my understanding of Roman life. I have come to this concussion, not only because of history but the accounts in the bible simply do not make sense given that history.

Where to begin, the beginning i guess is as good a place as any.

Jesus was born as the Talmud and other hebrew texts have it as Yeshu ben Pantera (Jesus son of Pantera). I take this as an illegitimate conception/birth, possibly by rape. Pantera was non other than a Roman soldier, Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.

From birth to about 30 years nothing is heard of him. There are lots of stories but no facts. Of this period i suggest he was growing up with a deep resentment of his absentee father who was posted to Germany, where his gravestone can be seen.

View attachment 50597

Which fermented to a deep resentment of the Roman occupation.

It is my view that Jesus joined the Zionist movement the "Fourth Philosophy" and became an agitator, anarchist and terrorist against the Roman occupation. (A view echoed and expanded in books like Jesus the Terrorist by Peter Cresswell). Also possible that he was also a member of the Sicarri.

Remember, Rome was accepting of any religion and gods, to attempt to impose one god was not only traitorous to Roman belief it was also an insult to the emperor who was himself deemed a god.

Jesus was caught, (possibly with the help of Saulus) tried and executed for his crimes against Rome and the Emperor and given a traitors death of crucifixion.

A note here on methods of execution in Rome. There were several methods used depending on the crime, from being thrown off a high cliff or garoting for run of the mill crimes. Two of the most serious crimes were patricide (Rome ranked a father highly) which involved flogging then being sewn into a sack with a dog, a dunghill cock, a viper and a monkey. The sack is thrown into the depths of the sea or a river. And importantly for this OP, treason which require execution by crucifixion.

He was crucified and supposed given to family/followers for interment. This simply did not happen under Rome. The criminal was left on the cross to rot as an example of roman justice. However it seems that in this case it wouldn't make a good story so.

Assume that he was released from the cross before he died. Was nursed to a semblance of health and was later seen walking around town. Unfortunately the iron nails used to pin him to the cross were not sterile, probably rusty and teaming with bacteria. He succumbed to blood poisoning never to be seen again.

Now fast forward 350 years(ish). A growing religion in need of guidance, the bible was compiled using the OT and various selected stories to create a saviour.

Maybe Jesus was remembered in folk memory as one who incited a oneness in the Jewish people. Add to that the works of John the Baptist who really was a good/religious man. And a few tales of magic and miracles and you have a New Testement on which to base a religion.

Christine M: "I have also studied as a hobby minus/plus 100 years of the fall of the Roman Republic/rise of Empire."

That's a long time. I've only studied it for a year or two.

Christine M: "Jesus was born as the Talmud and other hebrew texts have it as Yeshu ben Pantera (Jesus son of Pantera)."

That's not the same Jesus. Jesus was the name of a lot of people.

Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

Link: "Yeshu the sorcerer is noted for being executed by the Hasmonean government which lost legal authority in 63 BC, Yeshu the student is described being among the Pharisees who returned to Israel from Egypt in 74 BC,[3][4][5] and Yeshu ben Pandera/ben Stada's stepfather is noted as speaking with Rabbi Akiva shortly before the rabbi's execution, an event which occurred in c. 134 AD"

They say that Jesus was the King. But Rodney King was beaten by the Los Angeles Police Department (treated like a king). Martin Luther King Jr. spoke out for Black rights and was assassinated. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite who founded the Lutheran religion. Isn't it odd that Jesus, Rodney King, Martin Luther King Jr., and Reverend Martin Luther were all the same person? But I can use that info to establish my point, as long as no one realizes that they are different people.

Christine M: "being sewn into a sack with a dog, a dunghill cock, a viper and a monkey."

Emerging from the sack, with fried chicken, a monkey collecting coins as I cranked the organ, and a viper and dog to collect the coins, I made the best of a bad situation. It isn't the awkward situation, it is what you make of it.

Something tells me that rusty nails were not Jesus's greatest worry.

 

[ChristineM]

Because you are critical of the Bible books which is fine but your beliefs are about a book that doesn’t exist at all.

A/ I am certainly entitled to be critical about a book that condones genocide, murder, rape theft, slavery but thats besides tje point.

B/ i did not use even the bastardised refutation of his book, i ued my own research into Roman history and law

But it seems I have reached a similar conclusion from the available data.

 

[ChristineM]

The problem is that there's no evidence for any of this, let alone proof.

I am sure you read the OP. There is evidence in the Talmud there is evidence in the way Rome acted towards traitors and terrorists.

There is no direct evidence... just as there is no direct evidence for the bible version so both are equally valid

 

[Ludi]

ok so if one sticks to absolute truth and truth alone here, there are a few that cannot be denied. Now every person both male and female comes to EXIST in a purely conscious state. Now that state barring blindness would be in a state of perfect oneness with the reality around it, a mirror image, with nothing in between. Now that conscious state remains exactly the same throughout your entire life, it it is what man perceives as the subconscious, and it CANNOT be changed,. Now when babies are born the ENERGY inside, consciousness, and the ENERGY outside, reality, actually are ONE ENERGY. Now because there is no SELF yet, which EXISTS in darkness, light actually pours into them, and reality is more beautiful and alive then any SELF, could ever even begin to imagine.. Now Buddha actually touched on these very same facts. He went thru what he described as indescribable self awakening and he described what he saw, as this, Absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned itself alone IS. Now what happened to Buddha is his perception shifted from SELF, a state made up entirely of WORDS, back to the state he was BORN in., and he realized it was exactly the SAME, unchanged throughout his entire life, and it could NOT change, hence the unconditioned itself alone IS, it was still perfectly ALIVE. Buddha also called this state enlightenment, because light would have once again poured INTO him. Now your probably thinking what has this got to do with Jesus, and I will get to that in a second.. So Buddha called called this state Nirvana, which he described as the stopping of the process sustaining conditioned states, and the realization of Nirvana, the unconditioned state. Buddha also said this, every iota of everything, is just make believe fiction, and none of it exists in truth, and when this is seen as the way things actually are, that is the end of all delusion, and everything that never existed in truth to begin with, Ok, so in the very beginning, Genesis, God created man clay out of the earth, what we now know is undeniable fact, humans ARE created out of water and dirt. Now in the Divine Image He created them, male and female, He created them. So now if you simply look at babies, and what Buddha described, and use logic, it all adds up, to exactly the same thing. Now God warns Adam and Eve about a very cunning serpent that lives in the tree of knowledge of good and bad, and they shall not eat from that tree, Now that warning, was against the creation of SELF, a state so deceptive, it actually deceives itself. Now no word can be conscious of its own existence. Nor could it be conscious of any word put beside it. Words cannot know there own meanings, they are not aware in any form they are all fabricated states. Now Jesus said, I am the truth, the light, and the life, and thats because HE is the GOD of the purely conscious state we are all BORN in. Now many things in the scriptures allude to this FACT. He came to his own people but they did not recognize him. Now every person that ever lived was his own people. I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, ONE ENERGY. People born of spirit is like the wind, where it comes and where it goes no one knows. So man with all its advancements cannot find consciousness, they only know when its present, your, alive, when it goes, you are dead. Anyways its getting late and i have to go to bed so I will end with this, it is why Jesus was quoted as saying if you lift a rock, I am there, if you break a board I am there. And finally Christ said, Solomon, in all his wisdom, never understood that, and simply pointed at some wildflowers blowing in the breeze. Anyways goodnight all.

 

[ChristineM]

That's not the same Jesus. Jesus was the name of a lot of people.

Wikipedia is not evidence, of which there is none. Sounds like a bunch of anonymous "editors" have tried to flood the page with outright denials based on hot air. My conclusion is not based on the bible or Wikipedia but on research and thw human genome.

They say that Jesus was the King. But Rodney King was beaten by the Los Angeles Police

How irrelevant is this strawman?

Emerging from the sack, with fried chicken, a monkey collecting coins as I cranked the organ, and a viper and dog to collect the coins, I made the best of a bad situation. It isn't the awkward situation, it is what you make of it.

Oh its funny, so funny... not

Something tells me that rusty nails were not Jesus's greatest worry.

Try hammering a rusty nail through your arm (the hand isnt strong enough to hold the weight of the body). And see how long you can survive without antibiotics which were not available then

 

[ChristineM]

ok so if one sticks to absolute truth and truth alone here, there are a few that cannot be denied. Now every person both male and female comes to EXIST in a purely conscious state. Now that state barring blindness would be in a state of perfect oneness with the reality around it, a mirror image, with nothing in between. Now that conscious state remains exactly the same throughout your entire life, it it is what man perceives as the subconscious, and it CANNOT be changed,. Now when babies are born the ENERGY inside, consciousness, and the ENERGY outside, reality, actually are ONE ENERGY. Now because there is no SELF yet, which EXISTS in darkness, light actually pours into them, and reality is more beautiful and alive then any SELF, could ever even begin to imagine.. Now Buddha actually touched on these very same facts. He went thru what he described as indescribable self awakening and he described what he saw, as this, Absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned itself alone IS. Now what happened to Buddha is his perception shifted from SELF, a state made up entirely of WORDS, back to the state he was BORN in., and he realized it was exactly the SAME, unchanged throughout his entire life, and it could NOT change, hence the unconditioned itself alone IS, it was still perfectly ALIVE. Buddha also called this state enlightenment, because light would have once again poured INTO him. Now your probably thinking what has this got to do with Jesus, and I will get to that in a second.. So Buddha called called this state Nirvana, which he described as the stopping of the process sustaining conditioned states, and the realization of Nirvana, the unconditioned state. Buddha also said this, every iota of everything, is just make believe fiction, and none of it exists in truth, and when this is seen as the way things actually are, that is the end of all delusion, and everything that never existed in truth to begin with, Ok, so in the very beginning, Genesis, God created man clay out of the earth, what we now know is undeniable fact, humans ARE created out of water and dirt. Now in the Divine Image He created them, male and female, He created them. So now if you simply look at babies, and what Buddha described, and use logic, it all adds up, to exactly the same thing. Now God warns Adam and Eve about a very cunning serpent that lives in the tree of knowledge of good and bad, and they shall not eat from that tree, Now that warning, was against the creation of SELF, a state so deceptive, it actually deceives itself. Now no word can be conscious of its own existence. Nor could it be conscious of any word put beside it. Words cannot know there own meanings, they are not aware in any form they are all fabricated states. Now Jesus said, I am the truth, the light, and the life, and thats because HE is the GOD of the purely conscious state we are all BORN in. Now many things in the scriptures allude to this FACT. He came to his own people but they did not recognize him. Now every person that ever lived was his own people. I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, ONE ENERGY. People born of spirit is like the wind, where it comes and where it goes no one knows. So man with all its advancements cannot find consciousness, they only know when its present, your, alive, when it goes, you are dead. Anyways its getting late and i have to go to bed so I will end with this, it is why Jesus was quoted as saying if you lift a rock, I am there, if you break a board I am there. And finally Christ said, Solomon, in all his wisdom, never understood that, and simply pointed at some wildflowers blowing in the breeze. Anyways goodnight all.

?

 

[PruePhillip]

ok so if one sticks to absolute truth and truth alone here, there are a few that cannot be denied. Now every person both male and female comes to EXIST in a purely conscious state. Now that state barring blindness would be in a state of perfect oneness with the reality around it, a mirror image, with nothing in between. Now that conscious state remains exactly the same throughout your entire life, it it is what man perceives as the subconscious, and it CANNOT be changed,. Now when babies are born the ENERGY inside, consciousness, and the ENERGY outside, reality, actually are ONE ENERGY. Now because there is no SELF yet, which EXISTS in darkness, light actually pours into them, and reality is more beautiful and alive then any SELF, could ever even begin to imagine.. Now Buddha actually touched on these very same facts. He went thru what he described as indescribable self awakening and he described what he saw, as this, Absolute changeless permanent reality, the unconditioned itself alone IS. Now what happened to Buddha is his perception shifted from SELF, a state made up entirely of WORDS, back to the state he was BORN in., and he realized it was exactly the SAME, unchanged throughout his entire life, and it could NOT change, hence the unconditioned itself alone IS, it was still perfectly ALIVE. Buddha also called this state enlightenment, because light would have once again poured INTO him. Now your probably thinking what has this got to do with Jesus, and I will get to that in a second.. So Buddha called called this state Nirvana, which he described as the stopping of the process sustaining conditioned states, and the realization of Nirvana, the unconditioned state. Buddha also said this, every iota of everything, is just make believe fiction, and none of it exists in truth, and when this is seen as the way things actually are, that is the end of all delusion, and everything that never existed in truth to begin with, Ok, so in the very beginning, Genesis, God created man clay out of the earth, what we now know is undeniable fact, humans ARE created out of water and dirt. Now in the Divine Image He created them, male and female, He created them. So now if you simply look at babies, and what Buddha described, and use logic, it all adds up, to exactly the same thing. Now God warns Adam and Eve about a very cunning serpent that lives in the tree of knowledge of good and bad, and they shall not eat from that tree, Now that warning, was against the creation of SELF, a state so deceptive, it actually deceives itself. Now no word can be conscious of its own existence. Nor could it be conscious of any word put beside it. Words cannot know there own meanings, they are not aware in any form they are all fabricated states. Now Jesus said, I am the truth, the light, and the life, and thats because HE is the GOD of the purely conscious state we are all BORN in. Now many things in the scriptures allude to this FACT. He came to his own people but they did not recognize him. Now every person that ever lived was his own people. I am in the Father, and the Father is in me, ONE ENERGY. People born of spirit is like the wind, where it comes and where it goes no one knows. So man with all its advancements cannot find consciousness, they only know when its present, your, alive, when it goes, you are dead. Anyways its getting late and i have to go to bed so I will end with this, it is why Jesus was quoted as saying if you lift a rock, I am there, if you break a board I am there. And finally Christ said, Solomon, in all his wisdom, never understood that, and simply pointed at some wildflowers blowing in the breeze. Anyways goodnight all.

I haven't read this. It's just one huge block of test - no paragraphs,
no line breaks, no short line lengths...

 

[Colt]

up to the point of the Carpenter's execution

sure....they got the paper work to have the Man killed.....but!

Pilate wrote......Jesus Nexus Rex Judea
for the posting on the cross

the Pharisees boo hooed

but Pilate cut them off.....
I have wrote what I have wrote

The Son of God incarnate was being considered King of the Jews” or Messiah by followers. That was the “charge” at his trumped up trial. So being in the position Pilate was in, annoying the Jews by putting the indictment on the cross was clever.

 

[Colt]

A/ I am certainly entitled to be critical about a book that condones genocide, murder, rape theft, slavery but thats besides tje point.

B/ i did not use even the bastardised refutation of his book, i ued my own research into Roman history and law

But it seems I have reached a similar conclusion from the available data.

Jesus never condoned the negatives that you attribute to the Bible.

 

[KerimF]

More hand waving and avoidance. There does not appear to be any evidence.

Evidence of what?!
Is it about the people in the world who don't need knowing anything about the natural truths/rules of advance Math that may help them solving certain problems?
Or is it about the existence of these rules of advance Math?

Yes, it is real confusing for a person while seeing some others talking about certain things that don't exist in his reality.
This situation could happen to me anytime I hear some friends discussing how to use, for example, certain tools for programming which I am not allowed to get due to recent world's regulations. Obviously, I can't be sure about anything they may say... and I don't ask them for any evidence

 

[KerimF]

No, certainly not going to trample ... or rend. Having read the NT front to back (years ago), I don't recall any natural truths that would get me killed if I spouted them off. Clearly, if such natural truths exist, it's over my head or I do not rate comprehension for some reason.

When I will be ready to be banned by my RF friends, I will start a thread about these natural truths, revealed by Jesus already on the Gospel, that are taboo for any formal/ruling system, religious or political. I hope you will be around to comment them and see if I am exaggerating or not

 

[ChristineM]

Jesus never condoned the negatives that you attribute to the Bible.

I did not say jesus did, i said thw bible does, please do not misrepresent me

 

[KerimF]

A/ I am certainly entitled to be critical about a book that condones genocide, murder, rape theft, slavery but thats besides tje point.

B/ i did not use even the bastardised refutation of his book, i ued my own research into Roman history and law

But it seems I have reached a similar conclusion from the available data.

Yes, one can find, what you pointed out here, in God's teachings that were addressed to the ancient Jews when humans on earth were rather primitive (kids of humanity). Naturally, those teachings had to reflect the natural instincts of survival since the kids of humanity had only a living flesh to take care of; as all other living things have.

When the human race reached the first step in its specific evolution and some humans start perceiving a living thing in their being which is not defined as their living flesh is, Jesus came to show them how to feed it (their living soul) even at the expense of losing their flesh.

So while Jewish teachings (we witness now how they are applied) could be welcomed by almost all humans in the world; starting from self defense and ending at the destruction of god's enemies (this reminds me ISIS and the like), Jesus teachings that focuses on God's unconditional love is beyond the desire and imagination of the great majority around the world.

So it is not surprising that the great majority of Christians also prefer seeing God's Word on the OT and not in Jesus Love that opposes their natural instincts of survival.
By the way, I had an uncle who became a Catholic priest after studying the OT for 7 years and Jesus sayings for about 2 months (besides studying st. Paul's words and of many other saints for a couple of years).

On my side, if Jesus sayings are removed from the Bible, such a Bible would have no value to me other than being another historical book made holy for certain believers.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evidence of what?!
Is it about the people in the world who don't need knowing anything about the natural truths/rules of advance Math that may help them solving certain problems?
Or is it about the existence of these rules of advance Math?

Yes, it is real confusing for a person while seeing some others talking about certain things that don't exist in his reality.
This situation could happen to me anytime I hear some friends discussing how to use, for example, certain tools for programming which I am not allowed to get due to recent world's regulations. Obviously, I can't be sure about anything they may say... and I don't ask them for any evidence

Math does not help your mythical beliefs either. I doubt if you understand any advanced mathematics when you make such a baseless appeal.

 

[Subduction Zone]

When I will be ready to be banned by my RF friends, I will start a thread about these natural truths, revealed by Jesus already on the Gospel, that are taboo for any formal/ruling system, religious or political. I hope you will be around to comment them and see if I am exaggerating or not

 

[Colt]

I did not say jesus did, i said thw bible does, please do not misrepresent me

Just making the clear distinction. Jesus warned us not to put the new wine into the old wineskins.

 

[KerimF]

Math does not help your mythical beliefs either. I doubt if you understand any advanced mathematics when you make such a baseless appeal.

You won't surprise me if you doubt even about my existence if it is real or not. Unless you believe whatever you see on your screens as real because I don't. What we see and hear on our monitors are the output of some electrical signals which can be made to let us hear and see whatever the senders like us to believe or not.

This is why... one of the great talents in our created brains is its ability to filter the incoming data in order to extract from it what could be true (hidden or not) to his owner; unless it is about a fairy tale made for adults in the first place.

It seems your brain filters what I say and gets nothing as true to you. Where is the problem?
Perhaps, in your reality, one should find out what you like to hear as good answers to let him pass your exam and get your diploma. Alas, I used failing in Literature and History, so there is no hope at all for me to get your offered degree

 

[ChristineM]

Yes, one can find, what you pointed out here, in God's teachings that were addressed to the ancient Jews when humans on earth were rather primitive (kids of humanity). Naturally, those teachings had to reflect the natural instincts of survival since the kids of humanity had only a living flesh to take care of; as all other living things have.

When the human race reached the first step in its specific evolution and some humans start perceiving a living thing in their being which is not defined as their living flesh is, Jesus came to show them how to feed it (their living soul) even at the expense of losing their flesh.

So while Jewish teachings (we witness now how they are applied) could be welcomed by almost all humans in the world; starting from self defense and ending at the destruction of god's enemies (this reminds me ISIS and the like), Jesus teachings that focuses on God's unconditional love is beyond the desire and imagination of the great majority around the world.

So it is not surprising that the great majority of Christians also prefer seeing God's Word on the OT and not in Jesus Love that opposes their natural instincts of survival.
By the way, I had an uncle who became a Catholic priest after studying the OT for 7 years and Jesus sayings for about 2 months (besides studying st. Paul's words and of many other saints for a couple of years).

On my side, if Jesus sayings are removed from the Bible, such a Bible would have no value to me other than being another historical book made holy for certain believers.

Fist step in their evolution, is that when they came down from the trees or later when they began to walk upright?

The bible consists of both old and new testaments . Some consider the whole while some prefer the 15% which is the NT.

 

[ChristineM]

Just making the clear distinction. Jesus warned us not to put the new wine into the old wineskins.

More accurately, some third party claims that jesus said....

As far as i am aware there is no gospel according to Jesus

 

[Subduction Zone]

You won't surprise me if you doubt even about my existence if it is real or not. Unless you believe whatever you see on your screens as real because I don't. What we see and hear on our monitors are the output of some electrical signals which can be made to let us hear and see whatever the senders like us to believe or not.

This is why... one of the great talents in our created brains is its ability to filter the incoming data in order to extract from it what could be true (hidden or not) to his owner; unless it is about a fairy tale made for adults in the first place.

It seems your brain filters what I say and gets nothing as true to you. Where is the problem?
Perhaps, in your reality, one should find out what you like to hear as good answers to let him pass your exam and get your diploma. Alas, I used failing in Literature and History, so there is no hope at all for me to get your offered degree

I did not offer a degree . . . yet. Would you like one? I could probably sell you one at least as good as some other famous doctors. Perhaps you know some of the fine graduates from our college. There is Dr. Ian Juby. Dr. Kent Hovind. You will find many of our graduates here:

Encyclopedia of American Loons

For just 5 payments of $999.99 you too could have a doctorate to hang on your wall.