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Featured My view on Jesus.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ChristineM, May 16, 2021.

  1. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I have given outlines of my view on Jesus several times in the last three or four weeks. Some people thought interesting, others obviously disagreed and a couple were outright hostile to the idea.

    So i thought (yes it has been known) that a discussion thread would be a good idea to post my belief.

    I am a full blown atheist with an interest in religion, particularly (for personal reasons) Christianity. I have also studied as a hobby minus/plus 100 years of the fall of the Roman Republic/rise of Empire. Just so you know this won't be a theological discussion but will have historical contexts based on my understanding of Roman life. I have come to this concussion, not only because of history but the accounts in the bible simply do not make sense given that history.

    Where to begin, the beginning i guess is as good a place as any.

    Jesus was born as the Talmud and other hebrew texts have it as Yeshu ben Pantera (Jesus son of Pantera). I take this as an illegitimate conception/birth, possibly by rape. Pantera was non other than a Roman soldier, Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera.

    From birth to about 30 years nothing is heard of him. There are lots of stories but no facts. Of this period i suggest he was growing up with a deep resentment of his absentee father who was posted to Germany, where his gravestone can be seen.

    download (10).jpeg

    Which fermented to a deep resentment of the Roman occupation.

    It is my view that Jesus joined the Zionist movement the "Fourth Philosophy" and became an agitator, anarchist and terrorist against the Roman occupation. (A view echoed and expanded in books like Jesus the Terrorist by Peter Cresswell). Also possible that he was also a member of the Sicarri.

    Remember, Rome was accepting of any religion and gods, to attempt to impose one god was not only traitorous to Roman belief it was also an insult to the emperor who was himself deemed a god.

    Jesus was caught, (possibly with the help of Saulus) tried and executed for his crimes against Rome and the Emperor and given a traitors death of crucifixion.

    A note here on methods of execution in Rome. There were several methods used depending on the crime, from being thrown off a high cliff or garoting for run of the mill crimes. Two of the most serious crimes were patricide (Rome ranked a father highly) which involved flogging then being sewn into a sack with a dog, a dunghill cock, a viper and a monkey. The sack is thrown into the depths of the sea or a river. And importantly for this OP, treason which require execution by crucifixion.

    He was crucified and supposed given to family/followers for interment. This simply did not happen under Rome. The criminal was left on the cross to rot as an example of roman justice. However it seems that in this case it wouldn't make a good story so.

    Assume that he was released from the cross before he died. Was nursed to a semblance of health and was later seen walking around town. Unfortunately the iron nails used to pin him to the cross were not sterile, probably rusty and teaming with bacteria. He succumbed to blood poisoning never to be seen again.

    Now fast forward 350 years(ish). A growing religion in need of guidance, the bible was compiled using the OT and various selected stories to create a saviour.

    Maybe Jesus was remembered in folk memory as one who incited a oneness in the Jewish people. Add to that the works of John the Baptist who really was a good/religious man. And a few tales of magic and miracles and you have a New Testement on which to base a religion.
     
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  2. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    yeah .....right
     
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  3. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    So the Pax Romana is a theological concept.. ok, got ya
     
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  4. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    Shouldn't this be in the Terrorism DIR?

     
  5. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No, unless you consider my view to be a terrorist act
     
  6. beenherebeforeagain

    beenherebeforeagain Rogue Animist
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    Thank you for posting your views!

    I have also made a study of the historicity (apparently, that is a word) of Jesus, having read a number of books arguing various points of view, including that Jesus was totally a myth, a later construction, to various interpretations on what message the very real person of Jesus was trying to communicate (that is, was he a social reformer, an anti-Roman revolutionary, an ascetic mystic, etc.?).

    If such a man ever lived, there is no way we can historically be certain of what he did and taught; and there is a significant chance that he never was, that it's all a pious fiction.

    I myself am agnostic about the answer; I find arguments from all of the competing viewpoints to be compelling to some degree, but none conclusively.
     
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  7. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    My view is as conclusive as all the others :rolleyes:...its a view based on the Roman way of life at the time and assumes he did exist as a person. Other than that there is very little to go on
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing your views.
    I have a question or two.
    You said A "Rome was accepting of any religion and gods".
    You also said, B "He was crucified and supposed given to family/followers for interment. This simply did not happen under Rome. The criminal was left on the cross to rot as an example of roman justice."

    If Jesus was a part of the Jewish system, and they asked for Jesus body to be taken down, based on their religious beliefs (Deuteronomy 21:23), would Rome has consented, according to your statement A, thus rendering your statement B, void?
     
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  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Releasing a crucifixion victim didn't happen which is why i said
    The acceptance of religion beliefs did not run to criminals who, by their action forfeited their rights as citizens of Rome
     
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  10. Secret Chief

    Secret Chief Meghalayan Ape

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    No, but if Jesus was one. He did have a beard.
     
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  11. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Can't say you didn't do your research.
     
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  12. MikeF

    MikeF Proponent of RAEism
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    I had no idea that there were hypotheses as to the father of Jesus. I did a little Wikipedia searching to get some background.
    It seems the name "Jesus" is anglicised Latin of transliterated Greek of the Hebrew "Yeshua" or Joshua. Apparently Pantera was a common Roman name. With two very common names it seems difficult to draw a hard conclusion.
    It also seems from Wikipedia that the Joshua references in the Talmud were either decades before or after the time of NT Jesus.
     
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    You said that, after you said this... "He was crucified and supposed given to family/followers for interment. This simply did not happen under Rome. ...However it seems that in this case it wouldn't make a good story so."
    What did you mean?

    What does that mean? Hopefully, it doesn't mean you get to write the story.
    Let's see the Roman documents that tell your story.
     
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  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    The body was left to rot, but that would not make a good story. So there are various options. The guards were sleeping and his body (still living) was stolen, this is doubtful, the punishment fir dereliction of duty was death. Or the guards were bribed, again doubtful for the same reason. The governor actually did bend roman law and jesus was released before death (which is what i assumed). Or it didn't happen, he died, and remained as an example. In which case the story of ressurection is just that, a story.

    The history of Rome is easily available online. My work on this has happened over 30 years. I just don't remember which books I've read there are a few. SPQR a history of rome by mary eard. Pax Romana by Adrian Goldsworthy. The storm before the storm by mike Duncan.
     
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  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Well that is quite the non sequitur. I am sure that @ChristineM will be very relived that Prince Charles is worthy.
     
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  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    They can be pretty scary to a fundamentalist.
     
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  17. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I'm sure they can but it works both ways...fundies scare the **** out of me :eek:
     
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  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Your claim that the story was made up, is not based on Roman documents.
    If they are based on your views, that's fine.
     
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  19. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Did you a actually read the OP, my view based on reading roman history. And yes its as fine as your views on Jesus
     
  20. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Roman documents only tend to prove that there were early Christians. They do not support the views of Christians.
     
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