Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

[dybmh]

@Clear,

Based on your posts, I have been reviewing information about the Dead Sea Scrolls and artifacts from the Qumran caves.

Regarding the Copper scroll: From what I'm reading, scholars do not associate the the scribal cache as coming from Temple priests. The conflict is based on writing which is highly critical of the Temple establishment which on the one hand makes it appear more Christian, while at the same time indicates non-mainstream beliefs.

Regarding the hymns which indicate the expectation of a messiah: At least one source indicates that the authors of the texts at Qumran had already found their messiah.

Regarding considering these hymns Christian-like worship: It would be good to look at the actual text. The last time I looked at it, there was 1 example where the word that is generally translated as "glory" was instead translated as "grace" without justification. It may seem like a small difference, but, I think it's significant. Salvation by grace is, arguably, what defines Christian worship. If translators chose to insert the idea of grace into the text in one of the hymns, then it is reasonable to assume that this was done in others as well.

 

[Harel13]

@Clear,

Based on your posts, I have been reviewing information about the Dead Sea Scrolls and artifacts from the Qumran caves.

Regarding the Copper scroll: From what I'm reading, scholars do not associate the the scribal cache as coming from Temple priests. The conflict is based on writing which is highly critical of the Temple establishment which on the one hand makes it appear more Christian, while at the same time indicates non-mainstream beliefs.

Reminds me that in the religious Israeli kids' magazine Otiyot they once published a serial on a group of kids figuring out the secret of the Copper Scroll and discovering the treasure hidden in Yerushalayim.

 

[1213]

Hmmmm. The thing is, when the Church Fathers canonized the books of the New Testament, one of the criteria was that all these books represent what they considered to be orthodox teaching. That seems to me to be proof that they accepted both Jesus and Paul.

Yeah, every logical person would assume so. That is why it is almost funny how contradictory their teachings are in comparison to what is in the Bible. Like for example the idea that Christians are not Jews, even though Paul claims they are.

 

[1213]

According to the following from Christian scholars you can't still read the Ebionite version....

If nothing has remained, how can we know what they really had? We should trust to the “Church fathers”?

If it is true that they had Gospel of Matthew, but only in shorted form, then I think it is not true that their scriptures have not lasted. They have, but the common version is just little longer. And actually, I think it has nothing really that would be against their teachings. But, because “nothing of their writings” have lasted, we can’t really know that.

 

[1213]

...And yet, some early Christians sects like the Ebionites rejected Paul as a heretic. So, Paul must have done something to get his fellow Christians so riled up...

I think Paul is in many cases greatly misunderstood. Luckily, in Biblical point of view, Jesus is the king, not Paul. Basically, Paul’s writings are like The Oral Torah, interpretations and amplifications of teachings of Jesus. Paul's writings can be useful for righteous person, but they are not the main point and it is more important, if one is a disciple of Jesus, to be loyal to Jesus and remain in his teachings.

…as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Pet. 3:15-16

I think Paul’s teachings have been misused and twisted. And I think it has been done by for example the “Church fathers”. And actually, even the name “Church father” is against what Jesus said:

…But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

...Yet, the NT that exists today is a product of their [Church Fathers] work. Essentially, all Christians are reading NT's that are the product of the Church Fathers. They certainly claimed that they beleived in Jesus and for most of early Church history there was nothing but them.

It is amazing that we have the New Testament, because it has lot of what is the opposite of what the leaders do and say. I think it proves God’s influence in preserving the teachings for us.

Probably they didn’t bother to read it by themselves, else I think they would have used something else for their benefit.

 

[1213]

... Also, if what you are saying is true then Christians should be able to move forward w/o any attempt to convince or covert Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to Christianity since Christians would already see themselves as Jews. Yet, I also find it interesting that most Christians don't see themselves as Jews and don't call themselves Jews....

I also think it is interesting, because it is what Paul says in the Bible. But, I don’t think it is necessary to say so. More important for disciples of Jesus (“Christian”) would be to remain loyal to Jesus and sadly it seems to me that it is also very rare.

And I also think there is no reason to convert Jews to Christianity, in the sense people commonly understand it. I think Jews have many things correct and also in better condition than “Christians” have nowadays. For example, the idea that there is only one true God is also what Paul and Jesus taught and I don’t want Jews to reject that idea.

I think the only thing Jesus was against in Jews during his time on earth was the hypocrisy. He was not against the God’s law, but against that people obeyed the “letter of the law”, but not the “spirit of the law”.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I also think it is interesting, because it is what Paul says in the Bible.
I think the only thing Jesus was against in Jews during his time on earth was the hypocrisy. He was not against the God’s law, but against that people obeyed the “letter of the law”, but not the “spirit of the law”.

Greetings,

Again, it is not my place as Torath Mosheh Jew to dictact anything towards Christians concerning what they should think about anything in the NT. Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews don't find the NT to be a reliable source of information for the various historical and theological reasons listed in this thread. Thus, what is claimed about Paul and Jesus in the text is something that Torath Mosheh and Orthodox Jews are required to avoid.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think Paul is in many cases greatly misunderstood.

I tend to think that Paul was probably better understood by some of his oppenents in his generation than his followers in the modern one. But, that is my opinion.

It is amazing that we have the New Testament, because it has lot of what is the opposite of what the leaders do and say.

If the leaders of Christianity are doing the opposite of what their own text says then that is something that Christians have to resolve for themselves. As a Torath Mosheh Jew I will stay far away from that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

If nothing has remained, how can we know what they really had? We should trust to the “Church fathers”? But, because “nothing of their writings” have lasted, we can’t really know that.

Thus, as a Torath Mosheh Jew it doesn't matter to me what they [the Ebionites and other Jewish Jesus beleiving groups] really had or if the Church Fathers got them right or wrong. The NT, as it exists today, is a product of the Church Fathers. Thus, they defined modern Christianity way better than the Jewish followers of Jesus did.

The fact that they [the Jewish followers of Jesus] from the 1st to 2nd centuries as communities didn't survive gives another layer, besides the authorship issues, the historical, and theological issues of the NT mentioned in the OP, of why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews should avoid the NT.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Yeah, every logical person would assume so. That is why it is almost funny how contradictory their teachings are in comparison to what is in the Bible. Like for example the idea that Christians are not Jews, even though Paul claims they are.

Paul was after the idea that Christians were some sort of spiritual Jew. The truth was that he distinguished Jews from Gentiles. For example, he circumcised Timothy, the son of a Jewish mother, but did not circumcise Titus, a Gentile.

The Church Fathers, especially the Apostolic Fathers, were true to what the Apostles taught them. It is modern sorts that have forgotten how the original church interpreted things.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

He was not against the God’s law, but against that people obeyed the “letter of the law”, but not the “spirit of the law”.

If that is what the NT authors were claiming about him then that is yet another layer of the reason why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews were commanded by Hashem to avoid/disregard the type of information found in the NT. Because in the Hebrew Torah there is no such thing as obeying the “letter of the law”, but not the “spirit of the law.”

If that is the case a Mormon can claim that most Christians, in all forms, are not following the "letter of the new testament" nor are they following the "spirit of the new testament" by not following the teachings of the Joseph Smith and the Mormon books.

 

[Harel13]

If that is the case a Mormon can claim that most Christians, in all forms, are not following the "letter of the new testament" nor are they following the "spirit of the new testament" by not following the teachings of the Joseph Smith and the Mormon books.

As the joke goes:

Why did God create Mormons?

So that Christians will know how Jews feel...

 

[Ehav4Ever]

As the joke goes:

Why did God create Mormons?

So that Christians will know how Jews feel...

אתה ממש 10​

 

[Harel13]

אתה ממש 10​

I heard it from Rabbi Tovia Singer.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Given that the various church councils were the ones who decided what material went into the New Testament and what information did not go into it – this alone provides a very critical reason why Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews are required by Hashem/Torah to ignore such a text due to its historical and theological content and the lack of some specific requirements given by Hashem to Am Yisrael.

It further shows, based on how the early Christian Church chose to structure the text, that it was not meant for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews. I.e. if Christians like it and accept it is not my place to judge that BUT Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have mitzvoth to avoid it. The historical and theological information and claims found in the Greek derived NT texts from start to finish makes it suspect and thus a Torath Mosheh Jew and Orthodox Jew consider it (פסול) and (עבודה זרה) for us.

That being said, you may ask what structure and content would have given a Torath Mosheh Jew, at any time in history, a reason to even consider reading it? The answer to that is simple and thus what follows is a less problematic structure and content that would have made more sense to construct from a Jewish perspective.

1. The Gospel of Jesus "written in Hebrew/Aramaic by Jesus himself" containing:
   • A description of when Jesus wrote the text and for what purpose.
   • An autobiography of Jesus’s early life including a clear description of his family and verifiable names of who he learned Hebrew, Torah, and Halakha from.
   • A description of why Torath Mosheh Jews should listen to Jesus, his teachings, and his students. I.e. Jesus’s description of how listening to him and reading his gospel, and those of his students, are included in mitzvoth from the Torah.
   • A mitzvah by mitzvah detail of each of the 613 mitzvoth of the Torah and the practical application of each one in in all situations.
   • A dictionary of ancient Hebrew words, weights, and measurements. For example, what is Hashem’s definition of (כזית).
   • A review of Jesus’s Torah scroll that he was required to transcribe in his lifetime and who would be preserving it into the future. This would include his analysis of writing on (גוויל) vs. (קלף).
   • An identification of all the individuals who would be leading his Jewish followers in the future and what texts written about him were accetable.
   • A description of how Jesus got married, the traditions, and how his Jewish followers were to marry and raise their children. (עורך חיים ותלמוד תורה שלו)
   • A detailed description of future Christian movements that would not represent his teachings.
   • Jesus’s description of how the universe/reality works. I.e. Jesus’s teachings on astrobiology, biology, chemistry, physics, thermodynamics, cosmology, history, evolution, etc.
   • Lastly, Jesus’s specific advice for how Torath Mosheh Jews should survive/escape the remainder of the Roman occupation, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Mamluks, that Nazis, and western assimilation.
2. The Gospels of all 12 of Jesus’s Jewish disciples, written in Hebrew/Aramaic, covering the following topics:
   • Their family history (father’s name and grandfather’s name as well as the tribe they came from) also who they married and the names of their students.
   • The people they learned Torah from before Jesus.
   • The teachings that Jesus taught them on all of the 613 mitzvoth.
   • Their formula for surviving the Roman occupation.
   • A description of how they tie their tzitzith and which tefillin type they used. I.e. (רש"י \ רמב"ם) vs. (רבנו תם).
   • A description of the Torah scroll that Jesus was required to write and also how they made copies of it, as they were required to do by Jewish law.
   • Their commentary on the gospel of Jesus.
   • All of the writings of Paul and Revelations would not be included such a text.

If the NT had been structured, completely and not partially, in the above way then maybe it would be something that Torath Mosheh Jews would consider reading and investigating. YET, because it was not written in the above format Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews have a mitzvah from the Torah to ignore it.


Now I know that some Christians will feel like none of this matters and for someone who is not a Torath Mosheh Jew or an Orthodox Jew it may be fine that it doesn't matter for them, YET, it is a requirement for Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews to consider such a matter. Essentially, the NT authors and compilers had only one chance to get it right with Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews and ....... we all know what the results are.

I hope that helps.

That is not true at all. The reason why they ignored HIM is because they were not schooled properly by the Law and the Prophets. Meaning, that they did not understand the messages of the Law and the Prophets. Its funny to me that this is your claim... Tell me, what is their excuse for following false prophets over Elijah, when the people were supposed to, in hearkening to the words of the Great Moses, expect, and receive the Prophet Elijah as Moses said he will come. And as Moses said, the people were cut off, and Elijah transfigured alive without them. But when he came, they did not recognise him, and he even needed to tell them to draw closer to him. Its not in how it was written is the problem, its that you did not understand the Messages that GOD has been giving your people since Enoch. And that is why it was written: My people are destroyed for lack knowledge.

However, they were right in that Jesus His Pre-Eminence is not the Son of GOD. The Christians have been very wrong about that.

 

[Yahcubs777]

OK, just remembered that there was no rabbinical institution of Pharisees prior to the intertestamental period.

Because the Pharisees was coded, for occultists; witches and wizards. The Pharisees is the very occult that had formed an unholy alliance with fallen angels, tare cherubim and tare seraphim. The very wife of Pilate is a witch. She had discovered that there is something about Jesus His Pre-Eminence that they should not go through it. And she discovered it in astral world. And this is why the catholics have worshipped the Blessed Virgin Mary as an appeasement for what they did to Jesus His Pre-Eminence.

Jews really did not understand why Jesus His Pre-Eminence spoke saying that he will destroy the temple. The temple, that they believed was commissioned by GOD to build. Did you forget that King David brought down many shrines of dagon's? How could you not see this connection?

 

[pearl]

Because the Pharisees was coded, for occultists; witches and wizards.

Yet Jesus believed their 'teaching' was true to Moses, as he declared they 'had the seat of Moses', what Jesus accused them of was their practice not in line of their teaching.

 

[Yahcubs777]

Yet Jesus believed their 'teaching' was true to Moses, as he declared they 'had the seat of Moses', what Jesus accused them of was their practice not in line of their teaching.

They having the seat of Moses was a expose that they had hijacked the seat of Moses. This is what Ezekiel was shown and also what Daniel the Prophet was shown. Jesus His Pre-Eminence is not a believer. Furthermore, HE revealed that Moses didn't teach accurately when HE said: You have heard that it was said of them of ol time, thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say unto you (here HE revealed HE is the GOD that taught Moses), that if a man should look at a woman to lust after her, he had already committed adultery with her in his heart. And HE also brought the higher revelation on thou shalt not murder. If Moses was correct, why bring the higher to it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I find errors in Jewish documents? This is the Christian Septuagint(s) we're talking about, remember?

Are you claiming you have available an original Septuagint from the 70 that lacks Christian interpolation?

 

[BilliardsBall]

They had the option of staying. But it would have meant either giving up Christianity, or saying every day a blessing that is the equivalent of saying: "I am happy that I am not myself and I hope people like myself will be wiped out".

You mean like thanking God I'm not a Gentile or a woman?