What is the difference?

[lewisnotmiller]

As a muslim i often hear non muslims complaining about muslim woman wearing hijab.

But why is it no problem when a western female cover her head with a scarf?

Why the big harasment of islam when if we look at history mostly all females was cocering up their hair. Especially within religious practice.

Sometimes non muslims even know why islam still practice use of hijab for female? Did you know that hijab means to be modest both for male and females?

Personally, I haven't heard much pushback about headscarves, although I'm sure it happens.
Its usually more to do with face coverings.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Personally, I haven't heard much pushback about headscarves, although I'm sure it happens.
Its usually more to do with face coverings.

We all cover our face with mask these days, nobody complaining about not seeing the person they speak with then....
And no i do not support burka og niqab

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Every society has clothing norms according to what it considers decent and moral. In the same way you don't wear your pyjamas or a bikini to work. Islam is its own kind of society and thus comes with dress rules.

I have a lot of platonic female friends. It would sadden me to not get able to have those relationships.
My relationships with women aren't either familial or sexual, and limiting them in that would make my life poorer, and my understanding of women less, imho.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I have a lot of platonic female friends. It would sadden me to not get able to have those relationships.
My relationships with women aren't either familial or sexual, and limiting them in that would make my life poorer, and my understanding of women less, imho.

I know the feeling most of my friends before my convertion was females, and i still have them as my friends, have i changed my way of being around them now as a Muslim? Both yes and no.
I am more careful than before, and very seldom stay alone with one of them.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You yourself acknowledged that it is though. Note the bolded and underlined part:






Idd. Instead, it's about how men treat women and how the cultural values of islamic culture don't seem to encourage men to learn how to deal with women and instead make it woman's job to accomodate for the man's lack of self-control.

If I may, I think it's a bigger problem for Muslim men when they visit western countries due to conditioning. When they are in a western country, the safeguards are removed. I imagine being in a western country for a Muslim man who is used to women being shrouded in ultra-conservative clothing would be much like a western man looking at nudity.

 

[Altfish]

The best self control would be to not look at other than your own wife, to have focus only inward in how to become a better practitioner of Islam.
Not being disturbed by things or people, no matter what they do or wear.

For a muslim the spiritual awakening should be their Main focus.

Why on earth would that be a good idea? You inbreed repression and fear of the opposite sex.
Getting on with life, having friends, family and doing good should be the main focus. And with luck a good life too.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why on earth would that be a good idea? You inbreed repression and fear of the opposite sex.
Getting on with life, having friends, family and doing good should be the main focus. And with luck a good life too.

For one who do not practice or practice only a little, what you say would work well. But when the connection to God become more important than anything in the world only spiritual practice is the way to go.

 

[Altfish]

For one who do not practice or practice only a little, what you say would work well. But when the connection to God become more important than anything in the world only spiritual practice is the way to go.

Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.
I'm not looking for anything.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.
I'm not looking for anything.

Thank you.
I believe i found what i been seeking all this years, but the connection must be stronger

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If I may, I think it's a bigger problem for Muslim men when they visit western countries due to conditioning. When they are in a western country, the safeguards are removed.

Well yeah, that's what I'm saying. They aren't "trained" to properly interact with women as part of their culture.

I imagine being in a western country for a Muslim man who is used to women being shrouded in ultra-conservative clothing would be much like a western man looking at nudity.

I see what you mean, but I disagree here.
Even though I don't have statistics about this (and don't think there are any...), I don't think being exposed to nude women would make western men rape more or otherwise cause "self-control" problems.

They'll stare more for sure. So would I. But it wouldn't even cross my mind to lay finger on the women as a result of that nudity. Not even a little bit.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's is not a bigger problem for muslim men than non muslim men. But islam has different rules of we should behave. And it seems like muslim woman behave better than many men.

It's not about Islam vs not islam.

Speaking from my own experience, yes woman in islam have more control over them selvs

How does being a muslim let women have more control?

Biologically and psychologically women are human just as men so better control has less to do with list if any and more to do with cultural division between men and women (in the states).

So, my questions are how is list better controlled in women per being aislim and the other does the islamic division between man and woman have a medical correlation?

Of course spiritually would be different but I'm not sure how that relates to whose in better control.

 

[Spirit of Light]

How does being a muslim let women have more control?

Biologically and psychologically women are human just as men so better control has less to do with list if any and more to do with cultural division between men and women (in the states).

So, my questions are how is list better controlled in women per being aislim and the other does the islamic division between man and woman have a medical correlation?

Of course spiritually would be different but I'm not sure how that relates to whose in better control.

I speak only from p.o.v from spiritual life, so i can not speak for non spiritual people for non muslims

 

[SalixIncendium]

Well yeah, that's what I'm saying. They aren't "trained" to properly interact with women as part of their culture.



I see what you mean, but I disagree here.
Even though I don't have statistics about this (and don't think there are any...), I don't think being exposed to nude women would make western men rape more or otherwise cause "self-control" problems.

They'll stare more for sure. So would I. But it wouldn't even cross my mind to lay finger on the women as a result of that nudity. Not even a little bit.

I was doing a bit of digging on this website yesterday when I was following this thread comparing the US to countries where Islam is the State Religion and starting throwing together a spreadsheet before I got distracted. Though I never finished it, it was still open on my PC.

Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Here's what I threw together. You may find it of interest...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

For one who do not practice or practice only a little, what you say would work well. But when the connection to God become more important than anything in the world only spiritual practice is the way to go.

Why would you think that one cancels out the other?

The point here concerns interactions with the opposite sex and to learn how to be respectful and treating eachother equally while also maintaining self-control.

What you are saying is merely avoiding the problem instead of solving it.
It's like someone who really doesn't want to steal money, refuses to go and work at a bank or as a cashier as a "solution" for that problem.

That's not a solution at all. Instead, learn how to be around money without putting some in your pocket.

That's a much better way to go about it.
That way, you are mentally prepared for the day you will find yourself in the presence of money that isn't yours.

Same goes with women. Especially if you live in the west. You ARE going to end up in social situations where you will have to deal with / converse with / work with women - regardless of how they are dressed or act.

Don't you think it's a better idea to be mentally prepared for that moment instead of trying to go out of your way to avoid being in such situations?


The psychological fight against temptation is an inner struggle. A struggle that is not won by simply removing the temptation. That's simply avoiding the fight altogether, which will only result in you being unprepared for the day you can't run away.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The best self control would be to not look at other than your own wife,

That's not self control. That's merely avoiding the problem.
Self control is facing the woman and not doing anything nasty.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We all cover our face with mask these days, nobody complaining about not seeing the person they speak with then....

It bothers me tremendously.
But it concerns an actual health threat, so the situation is very different and not comparable at all.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Why would you think that one cancels out the other?

The point here concerns interactions with the opposite sex and to learn how to be respectful and treating eachother equally while also maintaining self-control.

What you are saying is merely avoiding the problem instead of solving it.
It's like someone who really doesn't want to steal money, refuses to go and work at a bank or as a cashier as a "solution" for that problem.

That's not a solution at all. Instead, learn how to be around money without putting some in your pocket.

That's a much better way to go about it.
That way, you are mentally prepared for the day you will find yourself in the presence of money that isn't yours.

Same goes with women. Especially if you live in the west. You ARE going to end up in social situations where you will have to deal with / converse with / work with women - regardless of how they are dressed or act.

Don't you think it's a better idea to be mentally prepared for that moment instead of trying to go out of your way to avoid being in such situations?


The psychological fight against temptation is an inner struggle. A struggle that is not won by simply removing the temptation. That's simply avoiding the fight altogether, which will only result in you being unprepared for the day you can't run away.

Yes it is an inner struggle and the path to God is the path to be stronger minded to never do wrong action words and thoughts. For a spiritual person the "need" For the physical world become less and less. Yes one must still live in this world until death get us. But if we are strong in our faith and belief in God it become more easy to not be tempted to do wrong to other or self.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It bothers me tremendously.
But it concerns an actual health threat, so the situation is very different and not comparable at all.

Why?

 

[McBell]

I was doing a bit of digging on this website yesterday when I was following this thread comparing the US to countries where Islam is the State Religion and starting throwing together a spreadsheet before I got distracted. Though I never finished it, it was still open on my PC.

Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Here's what I threw together. You may find it of interest...

View attachment 48067

ONE of the big problems with researching rape statistics in Muslim controlled areas is that Muslims have a vastly different 'definition' of the word rape.
Many situations in which the USA would consider rape are not considered rape in Muslim controlled areas.
For example, a husband can not "rape" his wife.
Not even his hourly wife.

-----------------------------------------​

Jilani claims the zina ordinance discriminates against women in a number of ways: 'In the first place, to come under the hadd penalties, the crime must have been witnessed by four men. The eye-witness statements of women are considered indirect proof— as is the statement of the victim herself. Yet in the majority of rapes, the victim is the only one eye-witness.'
​

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals​

Since the victims in the above scenario could not "prove" the rape, it is not recorded officially as a rape.


So in a nutshell, any "official" record of rape numbers from Muslim controlled ares are not any where close to accurate.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I was doing a bit of digging on this website yesterday when I was following this thread comparing the US to countries where Islam is the State Religion and starting throwing together a spreadsheet before I got distracted. Though I never finished it, it was still open on my PC.

Countries Compared by Crime > Rape rate. International Statistics at NationMaster.com

Here's what I threw together. You may find it of interest...

View attachment 48067

These are not appropriate numbers to compare.

For starters, it is well known that rape goes very much underreported in muslim countries because of the social stigma and the double danger for the rape victims, as they are then potentially the target of honour killings and can even be charged with adultery, which in some countries carries even the death penalty.

My point was about muslim immigrants coming to western countries and being confronted with a society where women wear what they want and where they aren't subject to male dominance, while not being properly psychologically equipped to deal with such social situations.

As Ayaan Irsi Ali said in her book, these are people that view western non-muslim women in miniskirts as being "3rd-rate citizens" that don't deserve any respect.