New Testament Criticism, Quran Criticism, the Bahai's and their divine inspiration

[firedragon]

Yes, Jesus as a Manifestation of God, was the only begotten son of God.

Really? Was not Ephraim the Prototokos?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What criticism? Form criticism, narrative criticism, redaction, Source, what criticism?

Whatever criticism you think is applicable to understand verse 2:210.
I meant, looking at the details of the verse.

So that's another evidence that your strategy is to cherry pick from a cherry picked verse. Whats the gain? Nothing.

Its the full verse that speaks, not cherry picking one or two words from the verse. You want to prove something bogus in the Quran, and you are even willing to make up things for that.

Ok, please tell me, how the whole verse changes the meaning.
My point is, if you agree that verse 7:53, though is a question, it implies surely will happen, why not verse 2:210, which is very similarly a question does not imply it will happen surely?
please explain so, I understand.
I don't mind to learn something.

Nevertheless, lets discuss the grammar of the Quran. Since you are an expert maybe you could explain.

Can you explain what happens when you qualify a Harfun Isthifaamun with a faala madharia? Please explain.

I don't know exactly what you mean. But if it is related to this verse, please explain for me.

See, that's a stupid question you are using thinking its very clever in strategy to prove other peoples hypocrisy, but see how dumb that question is.

But you are asking a similar stupid question. Because I said before, in Bahai view, Jesus taught His disciples what to be written in the Christian Bible. Then later, after Jesus, the disciples wrote what they were taught by Jesus. This means, even the story of Jesus resurrection, and His return were taught by Jesus. Later either disciples or early believers who were close to disciples wrote them.
So, why do you expect it is possible to find a manuscript date back to Jesus?

In your view What is wrong with the way Jesus or God wanted the Bible to be written?

Allah or God is eternal. I presume you understand that word. So nothing can date back to something eternal.

I know, I was answering a question with a similar question.

What this proves is that when you dont have proper arguments, you just have to make up some bogus argument to stick. Its nonsensical.

Of course you cannot provide any kind of evidence that is even close to the Quran, because it doesnt exist. Thats your problem.

I see sign of frustration.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The thing is, when the Bible is questioned, why do you always, every single time pull the Quran up? Is it because you cannot answer to your New Testament? So you have to commit the Tu Quoque Logical fallacy.

Thats fine. I opened this thread because it is a Bahai strategy to commit these logical fallacies. Every single Bahai who has responded in this thread have done the same thing in every single discussion. Maybe Adrians frequency of doing that is quite low.

Nevertheless I will answer you. No problem.

What evidence proves is that the Quran is closest to the source, Muhammed than the New Testament has any reliable source that's close to Jesus. So you comparing them is absolutely absurd and is just a Tu Quoque with no substance.

My friend, look at your post. You brought up the Quran, not me.
Sounds like you are engaging in too many discussions, so, you dont remember who started something.

Do you want me to quote your post and show you started the Quran?

But the title of your OP, includes the Quran as well. Do you see?

 

[firedragon]

Whatever criticism you think is applicable to understand verse 2:210.
I meant, looking at the details of the verse.

Please be kind enough not to bring up words that dont apply. What criticism can you use on this? What you need is a little bit of humility and reason. Its such a simple matter, and you have exactly stated the exact opposite of what it means. It cannot be discussed with you. There is no point.

I don't know exactly what you mean. But if it is related to this verse, please explain for me.

Right. Its like this. When you ask someone "are you waiting for the sky to fall on your head to believe there is a sky?" that is that is Harfun Isthifaamun which is questioning a someone.

When you ask someone "are you waiting until you get diabetes to change your food habits" that stating the obvious. Thats faala madharia?

Thus though you said "lets discuss the grammar" and cut and pasted arabic text from a website, you have not understood the grammar. These are two different things.

But you are asking a similar stupid question. Because I said before, in Bahai view, Jesus taught His disciples what to be written in the Christian Bible.

nope. It is not stupid to ask "are there evidence to your statement", but its stupid to ask "is there a manuscript dating back to God because God is not dead.

I see sign of frustration.

When people are living to thrive on insulting another person think that wins an argument, its frustrating yes because one has to respect people for their seniority and as a person. Yes its frustrating.

 

[firedragon]

My friend, look at your post. You brought up the Quran, not me.

Oh I think there is a problem understanding sentences.

This thread was particularly opened because Bahai's including you have a habit of doing the Tu QUOQUE.

So of course, the thread is called such due to the Quran being in the topic.

But lets say you ask me a question about a palaeographic dating of a gospel, I would give you a direct answer. No Hanky Panky. But YOU will always ask about the Quran. Thats called "Tu Quoque fallacy"

So I hope you would at least understand this.

 

[firedragon]

My friend, look at your post. You brought up the Quran, not me.
Sounds like you are engaging in too many discussions, so, you dont remember who started something.

Do you want me to quote your post and show you started the Quran?

But the title of your OP, includes the Quran as well. Do you see?

Anyway. So please go ahead and establish the authenticity, historicity and textual validity of the Gospel of John (as an example) that you use to propagate the New Testament and your theology.

Also, why do you eternally ignore the question of other books that are not found in the KJV but in the oldest bibles in the world which are more authentic?

Lets see if you do ignore this again.

 

[firedragon]

@InvestigateTruth

Tell me brother. Which version of the Gospel of Mark do you consider as "inspired, word of God" or what ever belief you may hold?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@firedragon


First, this is the claim: According to the Bahai theology, The messages or the words of Jesus were memorized by Apostles, and transmitted, and then written by early Believers.


What I suggest is, lets actually make a fair and sound response to the Questions Bahaullah is offering in the Book of Iqan with regards to the idea of Validity of the Bible. It is really related deeply to what you are trying to show.


Here are the questions:

The first question Bahaullah is asking, can be replied even by an Atheist. It is a logical question:


1. Can a man who believeth in a book (the Bible), and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it?

(So, when the apostles and early Christians who were believers in Jesus and considered Him from God, could they have changed His words intentionally when they transmitted them and when they were writing them?)



The rest of questions are for Muslims who believe in God, and Quran, and His messengers, but they are logical questions:

2. How could God, when once the Daystar of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?


3. What would be left to that people to
cling to from the setting of the daystar of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation?

4. What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King?

5. Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled?



This is what I call a true criticism. To Look at all aspects with a critical and logical mind. Not just looking at something one dimensional, without having an answer to all other important aspects.

 

[firedragon]

First, this is the claim: According to the Bahai theology, The messages or the words of Jesus were memorized by Apostles, and transmitted, and then written by early Believers.

Well, its an empty claim if you cannot substantiate it. Its just an assumption because not even the New Testament Gospels state this.

What I suggest is, lets actually make a fair and sound response to the Questions Bahaullah is offering in the Book of Iqan with regards to the idea of Validity of the Bible. It is really related deeply to what you are trying to show.

Sure.

1. Can a man who believeth in a book (the Bible), and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it?

(So, when the apostles and early Christians who were believers in Jesus and considered Him from God, could they have changed His words intentionally when they transmitted them and when they were writing them?)

How in the world would you assume that "they transmitted them"? Who told you this? Which passage are you referring to from which book in the NT?

2. How could God, when once the Daystar of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?

Who told you or why would Bahaullah assume that there was a book written down, and where does the assumption that it was meant to last forever? Why would you assume that the New Testament is Gods word? No one who ever met Jesus wrote a single word in the New Testament. This is evident. Prove otherwise rather than just providing rhetorical responses.

3. What would be left to that people to
cling to from the setting of the daystar of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation?

4. What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King?

5. Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled?

These are faith questions and not relevant.

 

[firedragon]

@InvestigateTruth

Also, why do you eternally ignore the question of other books that are not found in the KJV but in the oldest bibles in the world which are more authentic?

Lets see if you do ignore this again.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Quoting another books "belief statement" to believe in another book is absurd.

That would be also saying that one would not allow the Quran to influence their understaning, in any way about any aspect of the Bible.

If that the case in these studies, or are the studies pursued based on an understanding of the Quran?

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

That would be also saying that one would not allow the Quran to influence their understaning, in any way about any aspect of the Bible.

Absolutely correct.

If that the case in these studies, or are the studies pursued based on an understanding of the Quran?

Not at all. They are studied absolutely independently.

I have never said that "I reject the New Testaments validity because the Quran says so" or anything of the sort. I am addressing the Bible from its own merit and its own flaws. Same with the Quran.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@InvestigateTruth

Also, why do you eternally ignore the question of other books that are not found in the KJV but in the oldest bibles in the world which are more authentic?

Lets see if you do ignore this again.

The Baha'i use the KJV predominantly because Shoghi Effendi chose the English it contained to translate the Baha'i Writings and from memory Shoghi Effendi had a KJV Bible.

It is offered in the writings that we are not restricted to the KJV, I would have to go back and find what was advised on this topic, to be sure.

Basically we have been told that the Catholic Church did bring the Message of Jesus of Christ to this modern age, as such the versions they uses are just as applicable.

If you like I will find that advice, it will most likely be a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi in response to a question about the Bible.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

The Baha'i use the KJV predominantly because Shoghi Effendi chose the English it contained to translate the Baha'i Writings and from memory Shoghi Effendi had a KJV Bible.

No way. The Bahai's recently have converted most of KJV cut and pastes into TNIV text. But I am 100% sure that all three of them from Bahaullah, Abdul Baha to Effendi used the KJV because they carry the same errors carried by the KJV. But the translations cut and pasted in the websites currently are mostly TNIV. Especially when it comes to some of the prophecies. I can make a lot of assumptions why they have done that but its not relevant right now.

It is offered in the writings that we are not restricted to the KJV, I would have to go back and find what was advised on this topic, to be sure.

Basically we have been told that the Catholic Church did bring the Message of Jesus of Christ to this modern age, as such the versions they uses are just as applicable.

If you like I will find that advice, it will most likely be a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi in response to a question about the Bible.

Brother. You were told wrong.

YOu, just like some of the Christian evangelists are trying to make this a translation issue. Thats false. It is unacceptable.

It is not translation errors I am talking about, I am talking about adopting a false verse in the Bible thinking its genuine. And that's only one small point.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

@firedragon

I saw a question about John above, I came across this.

"..we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate." (23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

I think this says a lot as you will note we take on Faith what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'lbaha have said about the Bible and also as Shoghi Effendi best knew what they offered, we also quote Shoghi Effendi as official understanding.

This link may be of interest, as it it is to such material we look to.

The Bible

The above link is on Bible:Extracts on the Old and New Testament by Bahá'u'lláh, Abdu'l-Bahá, Shoghi Effendi, and Universal House of Justice
compiled by Research Department of the Universal House of Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Really? Was not Ephraim the Prototokos?

But you did not read my whole post. You just take my first sentence. The whole post should gave made it clear.

 

[firedragon]

"..we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate." (23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

I think this says a lot as you will note we take on Faith what Baha'u'llah and Abdu'lbaha have said about the Bible and also as Shoghi Effendi best knew what they offered, we also quote Shoghi Effendi as official understanding.

I understand this is your faith, but this is not a faith question. This is a question of reason. And this is a question arising from various discussions and statements of Bahai's themselves.

Look at the difference. Even the quote you had given above says "not sure", but the Bahais here seem "so Scott sure".

Thus, this is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[firedragon]

But you did not read my whole post. You just take my first sentence. The whole post should gave made it clear.

Nope. I read it.

But you did not address the point at all.

Anyway, do you believe that Jesus was the "ONLY SON OF GOD"?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, its an empty claim if you cannot substantiate it. Its just an assumption because not even the New Testament Gospels state this.



Sure.



How in the world would you assume that "they transmitted them"? Who told you this? Which passage are you referring to from which book in the NT?



Who told you or why would Bahaullah assume that there was a book written down, and where does the assumption that it was meant to last forever? Why would you assume that the New Testament is Gods word? No one who ever met Jesus wrote a single word in the New Testament. This is evident. Prove otherwise rather than just providing rhetorical responses.



These are faith questions and not relevant.

You need to first define your starting position in this discussion.

if you are discussing regarding the Bible being inspired by God or not, Which one of the following do you assume:
Please choose one that best describes your position:

1. We must assume that there is no God first, and just see if the Gospels are authentic histories, based on historical evidences.

If your position is #1 , then, in my best knowledge it is not possible based on historical evidences or scholarship to prove the stories in the Gospels or NT are authentic in the sense that those are actual words of Jesus, or the actual events that happened. But at the same time it is not possible to disprove their authenticity either.


2. We start as believers in God.

If your position is, as a believer in God and in Jesus as Messiah, then there are only two possibilities:

A. God sent Jesus as Messiah, but He did not want an authentic and legitimate Book to be written regarding His teachings and histories.


B. God sent Jesus as Messiah, and He wanted a Book be written for the guidance of His followers, but, it did not work out, so, they ended up with an illegitimate book.



Would you choose your position first?
You dont seem to be clear. Sometimes you speak as if you are tackling this as a believer, and a other time, as a non-believer. I am ok with any position, as long as you clearly stay in your position.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No way. The Bahai's recently have converted most of KJV cut and pastes into TNIV text. But I am 100% sure that all three of them from Bahaullah, Abdul Baha to Effendi used the KJV because they carry the same errors carried by the KJV. But the translations cut and pasted in the websites currently are mostly TNIV. Especially when it comes to some of the prophecies. I can make a lot of assumptions why they have done that but its not relevant right now.



Brother. You were told wrong.

YOu, just like some of the Christian evangelists are trying to make this a translation issue. Thats false. It is unacceptable.

It is not translation errors I am talking about, I am talking about adopting a false verse in the Bible thinking its genuine. And that's only one small point.

What you need to consider is that there is a vast amount of material written on this topic. I doubt all Baha'i have read it all and to those that have, it is a lot to remember.

I did find one letter about what Bible to use, there would be a lot more this is a link to what was offerd.

Bible, Preferred English Translation of

So what Bible we can quote from, this is said "..... Based on the foregoing, it appears to us that the friends are free to use their own judgment about which English translations of the Bible to quote from in their published work."

Most importantly as a Baha'i we know the Bible is not entirely authentic, that is confirmed.

If the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'lbaha or Shoghi Effendi have quoted the Bible, this then becomes confirmation that that part of the Bible is Authoritive.

Regards Tony