How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

If you will notice, I didn't ask about that. I asked which denomination(s) of Christianity are the closest to the practice of the 1st Jewish Christians. You said earlier that JW and Mormons are not. I am trying to create a list of which Christians have it right and which don't.

For example, are the Sacred Name movement valid Christians/Messianics to you?

Both gentile and Jewish expressions of the New Covenant follow God equally valid.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The Hebrew Christians i mentioned practice both Christianity and Judaism. Hannukah is Judaism.

So, they do Hannukah and all of sudden they are Jewish? That was not the question I asked. I asked who is doing Christianity the way the 1st Jewish Christians are doing and it and who is not?

For example, were the Ebionites following the 1st Jewish Christians ways? What about the Hebrew Roots Movement?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Both gentile and Jewish expressions of the New Covenant follow God equally valid.

I didn't ask about that. Are you intentially avoiding my questions? If so, this is another reason why Jews don't accept Jesus.

 

[Skywalker]

If you will notice, I didn't ask about that. I asked which denomination(s) of Christianity are the closest to the practice of the 1st Jewish Christians. You said earlier that JW and Mormons are not. I am trying to create a list of which Christians have it right and which don't.

For example, are the Sacred Name movement valid Christians/Messianics to you?

Messianic Judaism and Hebrew root are different. Hebrew roots followers are legalistic about being Jewish Christians. What is Messianic Judaism? | GotQuestions.org

Messianic Jews continue to celebrate the Jewish festivals and feast days as prescribed in the Hebrew Scriptures (i.e., Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles, etc.), but their observances are meant to demonstrate how Yeshua has already fulfilled these Holy Days. Most Messianic Jews, if they celebrate Easter, remove the pagan influences and celebrate only what is given in the Bible—viz., the Passover. Jews who now follow Yeshua the Messiah understand that everything given in the Old Covenant was a “mere shadow” of the better things to come in the New.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The teaching of God as a demiurge is blasphemous to both Jews and Christians. I was referring to the details of Bible translation, not overall doctrine. Marcionite | Gnostic sect

So, am I correct in understanding you that the bible translation of the Marcinotes was the most accurate to the early Jewish Christians?

 

[Skywalker]

So, they do Hannukah and all of sudden they are Jewish? That was not the question I asked. I asked who is doing Christianity the way the 1st Jewish Christians are doing and it and who is not?

For example, were the Ebionites following the 1st Jewish Christians ways? What about the Hebrew Roots Movement?

They don't just celebrate Hannukah-they are also of Jewish descent.

Messianic Jews do Christianity like the first Jewish Christians. Hebrew Roots teaches legalistic Jewish Christianity.

 

[Skywalker]

So, they do Hannukah and all of sudden they are Jewish? That was not the question I asked. I asked who is doing Christianity the way the 1st Jewish Christians are doing and it and who is not?

For example, were the Ebionites following the 1st Jewish Christians ways? What about the Hebrew Roots Movement?

I don't agree with the Ebionites because Jesus is the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, is God because he described himself as the judge of all people, died for our sins, and was born of a virgin. How can Jesus be the savior if he didn't die for our sins? Only God can be the judge of all people. Jesus was born of a virgin because he was God incarnate.

 

[Skywalker]

If you will notice, I didn't ask about that. I asked which denomination(s) of Christianity are the closest to the practice of the 1st Jewish Christians. You said earlier that JW and Mormons are not. I am trying to create a list of which Christians have it right and which don't.

For example, are the Sacred Name movement valid Christians/Messianics to you?

It's between them and God. Them being legalistic about following Jewish practices is similar to the practice of Judaizing that the apostle Paul disagreed with.

 

[Skywalker]

I didn't ask about that. Are you intentially avoiding my questions? If so, this is another reason why Jews don't accept Jesus.

Jehovah Witness and Mormons are gentile versions of believing in Jesus. The Sacred Name movement is like the Judaizers. What is the Sacred Name Movement? | GotQuestions.org

What does the actions of human beings have to do with whether Jesus is the Messiah? The Inquisition had to do with the sinful nature of people, not the teachings of Christ.

 

[Skywalker]

So, am I correct in understanding you that the bible translation of the Marcinotes was the most accurate to the early Jewish Christians?

Yes. But their teachings about the Old and New Testament God being different are not biblical. Jesus was loving but he also said he was the judge of all people. Who Will Be the Judge of Humanity?

God The Son

It is also clear that God the Son will be the judge. Jesus made it plain that all judgment has been entrusted to Him.

The Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son (John 5:22).

Jesus' Statement

Jesus said all the nations will be judged by Him.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31,32).

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It's between them and God. Them being legalistic about following Jewish practices is similar to the practice of Judaizing that the apostle Paul disagreed with.

So, if I understand correctly there are groups of Christians who are not correctly following the tenats of the NT and therefore they are not reliable sources concerning Jesus and his teachings. So, what standard does one use to determine that they are not correctly following Jesus when they claim they are? Please note that they use exact same texts you do and claim that their version or view of it is more historically accurate than yours.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Yes. But their teachings about the Old and New Testament God being different are not biblical.

Interesting, so how was it that they got the texts correct but they got their teachings incorrect? Do you consider the Marcionites to be true Christians or false Christians? Also, do they have a place in heaven? Is it then possible for Christians to have their understandings wrong?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Jehovah Witness and Mormons are gentile versions of believing in Jesus. The Sacred Name movement is like the Judaizers.

So, what makes your description of them as such more accurate than their description of you? Are you then saying that Mormons, JW, and Sacred Namers are not going to heaven if they continue to be Mormons, JW, and Sacred Namers? What standard placing them outside of the correct Christian theology?

 

[YoursTrue]

So, what makes your description of them as such more accurate than their description of you? Are you then saying that Mormons, JW, and Sacred Namers are not going to heaven if they continue to be Mormons, JW, and Sacred Namers? What standard placing them outside of the correct Christian theology?

Thank you for your consideration, Ehav4Ever. In order for me to give you my viewpoint, I would encourage you to look at the jw.org website and see what they say about Jesus Christ. Better they give you their viewpoint, which I espouse, rather than me say it for you. I have not investigated these other religions to see the difference, but I knew there would be a difference when I saw the post about that, I'm glad you asked.
Also, it's good to keep in mind that the Bible Students (as known back then during Hitler's reign in Germany) did not support Hitler, would not engage in physical warfare, were killed along with the Jews, and I knew when I heard that, these must be true followers of Jesus. Many are put in prison today in certain countries. So I would encourage you to do research on the jw.org website. About Jesus, the trinity, who goes to heaven, who will live on the earth, and why. Remember, it was God's will for Adam and Eve to live on the earth.

 

[YoursTrue]

It's between them and God. Them being legalistic about following Jewish practices is similar to the practice of Judaizing that the apostle Paul disagreed with.

Really nothing personal, Skywalker, but if I thought you had it right, I'd go along with you. But -- you know the answer, however I'll say it for you. I don't. As I say, I do hope the best for you, but when the future hits the earth (that's a metaphor), things will be rather clear for some. Hope that helps.

 

[ayin]

What is your definition of a Jew?

Jew translated means "Yah be praised", I praise YHWH so I am of course a Jew.

 

[ayin]

One thing, maybe, to keep in mind is that Cain brought an inferior offering. Also, the Paschal lamb was an inferior offering. (Zevachim 9a:5). If Jesus was making himself into a paschal lamb offering, that could be the connection. They're both bringing offerings of lesser sanctity.

So, this powerful image, the sign on Cain, could be interpretted as a warning, maybe? Someone offering themself, nailed to a cross, making themself into a paschal lamb, is not an offering of the highest sanctity and will be refused by God, just like Cain's offering.

The lamb of Abel was not an inferior sacrifice, this statement is false. God liked the sacrifice of Abel, Cain's sacrifice he did not accept because it was not blood, but fruit. Fruit can be seen in this passage as an image for one's works, an image for man's power, but a blood sacrifice is the image for God, since blood is the life which God gave from Himself.
"For the soul of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Levititcus 17:11
There you can see what kind of book the Talmud is. It has nothing to do with the Tanakh, the true word of God.
And what makes you think it is a warning? Twice this sign was used, with Cain it was the cross on which the ox head(God) hung, with the people in Ezekiel it was only the cross, and both times this sign was used as a symbol of salvation. Cain was saved from being murdered, and the people of Ezekiel were saved from merciless judgment. It is not a sign of warning, it is a sign of salvation.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The above concepts you have mentioned are not in the Hebrew Torah. There is no concept of faith as you put in the Torah. Nor is there any "apple of God's eye" in the Torah. Further, the concept of the Torah being a "law" is the Hellonist view.

If you are asking what I do on a regular basis with the Torah, here are a few links that can help you with that particular question.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Ehav4Ever/videos

https://www.abir.org.il/

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXECa6N2EVJVk6DFRCTRtYjeCCwd3kTR-

There is a concept of faith, or loyalty ['emun'], in the Torah.

Deuteronomy 19,20. [JPS 1985 Edition].
'The LORD saw and was vexed
And spurned His sons and His daughters.
He said:
I will hide My countenance from them,
And see how they fare in the end.
For they are a treacherous breed,
Children with no loyalty in them.
They incensed Me with no-gods,
Vexed me with their futilities,
I'll incense them with a no-folk,
vex them with a nation of fools.'

This concept of faith is confirmed in the Prophets.

Habakkuk 2:4. [JPS 1985 Edition]
'Lo, his spirit within him is puffed up, not upright,
But the righteous man is rewarded with life
For his fidelity.' ['emunah']

If the righteous man is rewarded for his loyalty, fidelity, or faith, then we should ask what loyalty or faith involves. Paul defines faith as, 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. This is applicable to many who followed God in faith. Paul mentions a number of them by name: Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joesph, Moses, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David, Samuel and other prophets.

Yet, this concept of faith you seem unable to accept as of the Torah. So where does Abraham stand in the eyes of a Jew?

Again, these are Paul's words, 'Therefore sprang there even of one [Abraham], and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
These all [individuals named in previous verses] died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
And truly, had they been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had the opportunity to have returned.
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.'

So, how is righteousness to be achieved, according to the Torah? Do you really believe that you can enter the heavenly by your own imperfect works?

 

[ayin]

Oh. So do you agree with everything on the Ancient Hebrew site?

The site is very reliable with the letters.

Also, can you show me a text where it looks like a the symbol in the first slot to the left above?

Also, can you explain why the NT was written in Greek rather than of the scripts above?

Since the Jews rejected Jesus, the new message was transmitted to the Gentiles. The most known language of the Gentiles at that time was Greek, for this reason it was written in this language. That's no problem.

 

[ayin]

Further, why should I accept your statement about ignoring the JW's? They could say that same about your information. Can you show me a 1st to 2nd century Roman era cross that supports your claim?

The Greek word translated "cross" in many Bibles is the Greek word "stauros", which means "an upright pole, especially a pointed one, a cross". The word itself, therefore, can be used for both shaped pieces of wood. However, the details of the narrative give us a clearer picture. If a stake had been used instead of a cross, then Jesus' hands would have been placed over his head and a nail driven through his wrists. Since the wrists would most likely overlap, only one nail would be driven through both wrists. However, John 20:25 says:
"Then the other disciples said to him, We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Unless I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
Notice the use of the word nails (plural) in reference to his hands (plural). It makes much more sense to say that Jesus was crucified on the cross with his hands outstretched and a nail in each hand, one on top of the other on a stake. That is why it is said :
". . . in his hands the imprint of the nails . . ."
Therefore, it is most logical to assert that Jesus died on a cross with his arms outstretched. This also accords well with relevant archaeological evidence. The remains of a crucified Jewish man named Yehohanon, found in the late 20s AD. C.E. (not long before Jesus) was executed under the administration of Pontius Pilate, were unearthed in a Jewish tomb. Forensic analysis of the remains indicates that he was crucified with his arms outstretched. A nail was still found embedded in his heel bone. All of these details are consistent with the description of Jesus' similar execution under Pilate and suggest a cross shape rather than a single upright beam or stake.
The testimony of early Christians also unanimously points to a cross shape. A popular Christian writing from the early 100s AD. Chr. compares the cross to the Greek letter "tau," which looks a lot like our "t," and also speaks of the cross depicted in the figure of Moses stretching his arms across the battlefield of the armies of Israel. Justin Martyr (114-165 A.D.), a native of Samaria, located between Galilee and Judea, where most of Jesus' ministry took place, wrote that the Passover lamb anticipated not only Jesus but also the cross because:
"The lamb that is roasted is roasted and disguised in the form of the cross. For a spit is pierced from the lower parts to the head, a spit over the back to which the legs of lamb are attached."
Irenaeus also describes the shape of the cross as pointing both up and down and to each side, and mentions a post on which the nailed person rests. The "Palatine Graphito" (a late second-century Roman graphite mocking a Christian for worshipping the crucified Jesus) also depicts Jesus' execution as taking place on the cross. Even some of the earliest New Testament manuscripts that have been found (P45, P66, and P75) abbreviate the Greek word "stauros" by omitting the "au" in the middle and superimposing the Greek letters for "t" and "r," forming a "t" shape with a circle over it, or a graphic of a crucified figure on the cross. All of these together represent a fairly comprehensive testimony that the earliest Christians believed Jesus died on the cross with his arms outstretched. Not only do they represent an early witness, but they also lived in the world in which Jesus lived and would know better if crucifixions were not carried out in this manner.