Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[loverofhumanity]

The thing with this is, you are just quoting a belief statement. You are not addressing the text. These kind of statements are just random. Its not valid. The whole earth is mourning because they missed the return of Christ? SO the world was not mourning, no depression, no unhappiness before Bahaullah?

I think you should read up a bit about the evolution of the society of the world at large. It is not true that people are more depressed, mourning etc etc. Its just assumption that people make as usual, not based on study or any kind of research. This point is not based on anything, but a faith based polemical assumption.

The text says "all tribes of the world will mourn when the son of man comes", not after he comes, and not because they missed his advent. Thats absolutely false. Also, you still did not complete the verse. It says "They will see the son of man.....".

Dont tell me suddenly after addressing the tribes of the whole world, the writer changes it to "a few people". The whole world will see the son of man coming.

Please LOH. Lets not cherry pick from a cherry picked verse. I hope you understand.

Does it say instantly in one second? Or over a period of time? We believe that the whole world will come to believe in Baha’u’llah, every eye shall see Him.

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth. (Baha’u’llah)

Baha’u’llah explained what the tribes mourning meant in the Book of Certitude snd that to us is authoritative. My guesses aren’t.


“These words signify that in those days men will lament the loss of the Sun of the divine beauty, of the Moon of knowledge, and of the Stars of divine wisdom.”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[Trailblazer]

If Bahaullah had divine knowledge, how come he did not know that he was referring to fallacious verses?

Maybe He knew but He didn't care.

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh God.

1. I was talking about something else.
2. LOH gave an argument that was not relevant.
3. You are giving the same argument.

SO its irrelevant.

I cannot respond to a post when I have no idea what you are referring to, but maybe it does not matter anyway.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

He read the Bible obviously. Because he quoted verses that did not have any authenticity. So he was reading the existing Bible at the time because it was before the discovery of some of the older manuscripts. I never addressed this issue in this thread because it was not my intent, but now because of all the irrelevance in this thread it has derailed so no worries. Lets take it.

If Bahaullah had divine knowledge, how come he did not know that he was referring to fallacious verses?

Which fallacious verses? Fallacious according to who?

 

[firedragon]

Which fallacious verses? Fallacious according to who?

Maybe go back and read some of the posts brother.

 

[firedragon]

I cannot respond to a post when I have no idea what you are referring to, but maybe it does not matter anyway.

Exactly.

 

[firedragon]

Does it say instantly in one second? Or over a period of time? We believe that the whole world will come to believe in Baha’u’llah, every eye shall see Him.

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth. (Baha’u’llah)

Baha’u’llah explained what the tribes mourning meant in the Book of Certitude snd that to us is authoritative. My guesses aren’t.


“These words signify that in those days men will lament the loss of the Sun of the divine beauty, of the Moon of knowledge, and of the Stars of divine wisdom.”


The Kitáb-i-Íqán
Bahá’u’lláh

Well, everything is "alluding" to something else. To me, that's a lot of effort to reconcile everything by hook or crook.

 

[firedragon]

No, Baha'u'llah did not preach that. Referring to God, Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is......

“His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 89

But clearly, the Bible is a testimony through the men who wrote it, men who were allegedly inspired by the Holy Spirit. It is not the Word of God in the same sense as the Qur'an or the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh
. (28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

See, this is exactly what the Christians did sis. They did believe the Bible was the word of God but then it became obvious that this position cannot be held onto because of overwhelming evidence against it. So they changed the position to exactly the same thing you have said here.

It was you who asked me "what about the Quran". So lets compare. It was your criterion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Maybe go back and read some of the posts brother.

If you can, give me the post #. There are too many posts in this thread.

 

[firedragon]

If you can, give me the post #. There are too many posts in this thread.

Yes you're right. Let me see. Apologies.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dont tell me suddenly after addressing the tribes of the whole world, the writer changes it to "a few people". The whole world will see the son of man coming.

Please quote a verse from the New Testament where it says that the whole world will see the son of man coming.
I did a Google search and this is what I found. Interesting that only one verses says "every eye will see him" and there is no reference to Jesus. Christians will claim that only Jesus was pierced, but Baha'u'llah was pierced by heavy chains.

What Does the Bible Say About Every Eye Shall See Him?

Revelation 1:7 ESV
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

 

[firedragon]

Please quote a verse from the New Testament where it says that the whole world will see the son of man coming.
I did a Google search and this is what I found. Interesting that only one verses says "every eye will see him" and there is no reference to Jesus. Christians will claim that only Jesus was pierced, but Baha'u'llah was pierced by heavy chains.

What Does the Bible Say About Every Eye Shall See Him?

Revelation 1:7 ESV
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Dont tell me suddenly after addressing the tribes of the whole world, the writer changes it to "a few people". The whole world will see the son of man coming.

 

[Trailblazer]

See, this is exactly what the Christians did sis. They did believe the Bible was the word of God but then it became obvious that this position cannot be held onto because of overwhelming evidence against it. So they changed the position to exactly the same thing you have said here.

It was you who asked me "what about the Quran". So lets compare. It was your criterion.

The Guardian already compared them in the letters I quoted. I go by what he wrote.

 

[Trailblazer]

Dont tell me suddenly after addressing the tribes of the whole world, the writer changes it to "a few people". The whole world will see the son of man coming.
View attachment 46522

There is nothing in those verses about the whole world seeing the son of man coming.

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dont tell me suddenly after addressing the tribes of the whole world, the writer changes it to "a few people". The whole world will see the son of man coming.
View attachment 46522

It does not mean everyone can see Him. Only those who have eye can see Him or recognize Him. But those who don't have eye, and are blind cannot see.

In Bahai view those verses are to be interpreted spiritually. The intention is, seeing through the eye of Spirit, which is recognition of the Manifestation of God through the inner eye. Thus everyone who possess such an eye can see.

 

[Trailblazer]

It does not mean everyone can see Him. Only those who have eye can see Him or recognize Him. But those who don't have eye, and are blind cannot see.

In Bahai view those verses are to be interpreted spiritually. The intention is, seeing through the eye of Spirit, which is recognition of the Manifestation of God through the inner eye. Thus everyone who possess such an eye can see.

Some verses are to be interpreted spiritually and some literally, but context is also important.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The followers of the Bab and Baha'u'llah can be seen as the angels, and they sure made a great sound and thye gathered together God's elect!

 

[firedragon]

There is nothing in those verses about the whole world seeing the son of man coming.

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So as I already anticipated and asked, you are saying in the middle of the full sentence, they became a few people.

Thats why I cut and pasted that sentence, because I felt this will be your apologetic. They, refers to the all the tribes of the world as said blatantly in the verse.

 

[firedragon]

It does not mean everyone can see Him. Only those who have eye can see Him or recognize Him. But those who don't have eye, and are blind cannot see.

In Bahai view those verses are to be interpreted spiritually. The intention is, seeing through the eye of Spirit, which is recognition of the Manifestation of God through the inner eye. Thus everyone who possess such an eye can see.

Yes I understand that in the Bahai view most of the things are symbolic, spiritual etc etc.

But what you say about "who dont have eye, and are blind" is not in the text. So someone made that up.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

If you study history, there was a star fall around the time both the Bab and Baha’u’llah appeared just like the Star of Bethlehem heralded Jesus

“On Nov. 13, 1833, came the wondrous celestial exhibition of falling stars, which is listed as one of the most remarkable phenomena of the astronomical story.”

A meteor shower seen in North America 1833 heralds the coming of the Bab (born 1819) and Baha'u'llah (born 1817). Why? Because it was around that time?
They would have been 12 to 14 years old.



The Leonids meteor shower is a regular occurrence.


"In mid-November, spectacular meteors will streak through the night sky as the Leonid meteor shower hits Earth once again. This annual meteor shower is responsible for some of the most intense meteor storms in history. The 1966 Leonids were certainly the greatest meteor shower in recorded history as it produced rates as high as 40 meteors per SECOND!"
50th anniversary of the famous 1966 Leonid storm - American Meteor Society (amsmeteors.org)



So arguably a larger meteor shower was seen on November 17th 1966.
And that was the birthdate of Jeff Buckley.

He was a star.

"Your faith was strong but you needed proof".

Jeff Buckley song: Hallelujah (Glory to the lord).

 

[firedragon]

A meteor shower seen in North America 1833 heralds the coming of the Bab (born 1819) and Baha'u'llah (born 1817). Why? Because it was around that time?
They would have been 12 to 14 years old.



The Leonids meteor shower is a regular occurrence.


"In mid-November, spectacular meteors will streak through the night sky as the Leonid meteor shower hits Earth once again. This annual meteor shower is responsible for some of the most intense meteor storms in history. The 1966 Leonids were certainly the greatest meteor shower in recorded history as it produced rates as high as 40 meteors per SECOND!"
50th anniversary of the famous 1966 Leonid storm - American Meteor Society (amsmeteors.org)



So arguably a larger meteor shower was seen on November 17th 1966.
And that was the birthdate of Jeff Buckley.

He was a star.

"Your faith was strong but you needed proof".

Jeff Buckley song: Hallelujah (Glory to the lord).

Jeff Buckley. I grew up listening.