Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[Trailblazer]

Sorry, first Bahaullah's own claim must be on the table. If he did not claim himself then he is out of the claimants. Right friend , please?

Regards

Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." (John 16:13). And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament.

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, "I go away, and come again unto you"? (John 14:28). Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith: "When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." (John 16:13). And yet behold how, when He did bring the truth, ye refused to turn your faces towards Him, and persisted in disporting yourselves with your pastimes and fancies. Ye welcomed Him not, neither did ye seek His Presence, that ye might hear the verses of God from His own mouth, and partake of the manifold wisdom of the Almighty, the All-Glorious, the All-Wise. Ye have, by reason of your failure, hindered the breath of God from being wafted over you, and have withheld from your souls the sweetness of its fragrance. Ye continue roving with delight in the valley of your corrupt desires. By God! Ye, and all ye possess, shall pass away. Ye shall, most certainly, return to God, and shall be called to account for your doings in the presence of Him Who shall gather together the entire creation.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

“Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63

Trailblazer wrote," Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament. "

But Bahaullah did not claim for the office of Imam Mahdi which is the topic of the thread, please. Right friend, please?
One has already accepted (vide post #136) that Bahaullah did not claim to be Imam Mahdi , do all the Bahaism people here (mentioned in one's post #138 like @Tony Bristow-Stagg , or @loverofhumanity )* accept this, please? Right friend, please?

Regards
______________
*and others like friend @arthra, friend @shunyadragon or friend @danieldemol (- who now identifies his religion as "Spiritual but not religious" but he has a good knowledge of Bahaism literature) etc.

 

[paarsurrey]

Baha'u'llah did not claim to be "Imam Mahdi." I believe that was a claim made by the Bab, but Tony or some of the other Baha'is on RF would probably know more about that than I do, as I am not that well versed in Baha'i history..

Trailblazer wrote, " Baha'i history".

It is more of a question of making a first person claim of being Imam Mahdi by Bahaullah (that one has already acknowledged that he did not), and by Bab, had Bab made this claim of being Imam Mahdi openly , publicly and in a straightforward manner in writing in first person, then one must have remembered it and have not forgotten it, I understand, please? Right friend, please?
It is not a question of " Baha'i history", I envision. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer wrote," Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament. "

But Bahaullah did not claim for the office of Imam Mahdi which is the topic of the thread, please. Right friend, please?
One has already accepted (vide post #136) that Bahaullah did not claim to be Imam Mahdi , do all the Bahaism people here (mentioned in one's post #138 like @Tony Bristow-Stagg , or @loverofhumanity )* accept this, please? Right friend, please?

I do not know for certain if Baha'u'llah made that claim to be the Imam Mahdi and that is why I pointed you towards the other Baha'is on this forum.

But even if He never claimed it that does not mean He was not the Imam Mahdi.

AGAIN, Shoghi Effendi explained who Baha'u'llah was to Islam:

“to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)” God Passes By, p. 94

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer wrote, " Baha'i history".

It is more of a question of making a first person claim of being Imam Mahdi by Bahaullah (that one has already acknowledged that he did not), and by Bab, had Bab made this claim of being Imam Mahdi openly , publicly and in a straightforward manner in writing in first person, then one must have remembered it and have not forgotten it, I understand, please? Right friend, please?
It is not a question of " Baha'i history", I envision. Right friend, please?

Regards

As Tony said in post #130:

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Trailblazer wrote, " Baha'i history".

It is more of a question of making a first person claim of being Imam Mahdi by Bahaullah (that one has already acknowledged that he did not), and by Bab, had Bab made this claim of being Imam Mahdi openly , publicly and in a straightforward manner in writing in first person, then one must have remembered it and have not forgotten it, I understand, please? Right friend, please?
It is not a question of " Baha'i history", I envision. Right friend, please?

Regards

The answer to this question is more than yes and no, as the answer is yes and no.

So it depends what one wants to know, does one want to see how it is yes, or does one just want the no.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not know for certain if Baha'u'llah made that claim to be the Imam Mahdi and that is why I pointed you towards the other Baha'is on this forum.

But even if He never claimed it that does not mean He was not the Imam Mahdi.

AGAIN, Shoghi Effendi explained who Baha'u'llah was to Islam:

“to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Ḥusayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)” God Passes By, p. 94

The yes to this question is Baha'u'llah and what he has offered in the writings, how we make no distinction between the Mesengers and that all the attributes of the former Messenger are portrayed in the Later Messenger.

Thus the Bab claims were subject to the approval of Baha'u'llah and all those attributes were manifested in Baha'u'llah.

What Baha'u'llah asks us to do is rise above all the names to become One in all of them.

It is a massive topic, but that is what it is all about. We must be open to new ideas, new thoughts, new frames of references.

Regards Tony

 

[soulsurvivor]

Trailblazer wrote," Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament. "

But Bahaullah did not claim for the office of Imam Mahdi which is the topic of the thread, please. Right friend, please?
One has already accepted (vide post #136) that Bahaullah did not claim to be Imam Mahdi , do all the Bahaism people here (mentioned in one's post #138 like @Tony Bristow-Stagg , or @loverofhumanity )* accept this, please? Right friend, please?

Regards
______________
*and others like friend @arthra, friend @shunyadragon or friend @danieldemol (- who now identifies his religion as "Spiritual but not religious" but he has a good knowledge of Bahaism literature) etc.

In Bahaism, the Bab is supposed to be Imam Mahdi and Bahaullah is supposed to be Jesus and strangely, also the Father.

 

[paarsurrey]

As Tony said in post #130:

Shoghi Effendi has shown us what Prophecies Baha'u'llah has fulfilled.

Baha'u'llah was "to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ)"

The Bab "was none other than the promised Qá’im (He who ariseth), the Sáhibu’z-Zamán (the Lord of the Age), Who assumed the exclusive right of annulling the whole Qur’ánic Dispensation".

One, as well other Bahaism people in the forum who opted to comment, could neither give quote of Bahaullah public and open claim of Imam Mahdi in first person in writing nor from Bab in this connection so they both are out of the truthful claimants of Imam Mahdi, I understand undoubtedly. Right friend, please?

Did Bahaullah claim to be the end time "Krishna", please? If so kindly quote from Bahaullah's specific open and clear claim of being "Krishna", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

One, as well other Bahaism people in the forum who opted to comment, could neither give quote of Bahaullah public and open claim of Imam Mahdi in first person in writing nor from Bab in this connection so they both are out of the truthful claimants of Imam Mahdi, I understand undoubtedly. Right friend, please?

Did Bahaullah claim to be the end time "Krishna", please? If so kindly quote from Bahaullah's specific open and clear claim of being "Krishna", please. Right friend, please?

Regards

I already told you what Baha'u'llah claimed in His Writings.
No, He did not specifically claim to be the end time "Krishna".

He claimed to be the return of all the Prophets, so you can do the math.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In Bahaism, the Bab is supposed to be Imam Mahdi and Bahaullah is supposed to be Jesus and strangely, also the Father.

In what I understand as to what Baha'u'llah offered we can never have any concept of who God is in Essence.

As such all we know of God is all that we have been told by the Messengers and all of them Baha'u'llah says we are not to make any distinction, they are One, all of the Holy Spirit.

Thus the Titles we use to call on God through are just that Titles, they do not describe God, they describe the spiritual stations of the Messengers. All praise thus reverts to the Messengers.

Jesus came as Christ the Son, it is then obvious the Son becomes a Father. It also spiritually tells us why the Son has more to say, because as we grow in this life we gain more knowledge and by the time we are a Father, we can give more wisdom.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

In Bahaism, the Bab is supposed to be Imam Mahdi and Bahaullah is supposed to be Jesus and strangely, also the Father.

I figure supposition is a conjecture must be followed by a clear claim which is not there with the Bahaism people, I understand. Right friend, please?
Thanks for responding.
Is one a follower of Bahaism , please? Right friend, please?
Since religion is a personal matter, so reply if it doesn't injure one's privacy, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I already told you what Baha'u'llah claimed in His Writings.
No, He did not specifically claim to be the end time "Krishna".
He claimed to be the return of all the Prophets, so you can do the math.

Trailblazer wrote, "I already told you"
Paarsurrey says: OK, thank you. Please give the post # . Right friend, please?

Trailblazer wrote," He claimed to be the return of all the Prophets"
Paarsurrey says: One means that Bahaullah mentioned in a general/sweeping statement, but specific to no prophet of the past specifically that was to come at the end of time, I understand. Am I correct, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer wrote, "I already told you"
Paarsurrey says: OK, thank you. Please give the post # . Right friend, please?

#141 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 11:36 PM

Trailblazer wrote," He claimed to be the return of all the Prophets"
Paarsurrey says: One means that Bahaullah mentioned in a general/sweeping statement, but specific to no prophet of the past specifically that was to come at the end of time, I understand. Am I correct, please?

Yes, you are correct, and Baha'u'llah also wrote that Muhammad claimed to be the return of all the Prophets of the past:

“Furthermore, it is evident to thee that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!” 26 For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but one.” 27 Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad our all.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp, 152-153

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Trailblazer wrote," Baha'u'llah did make claims. He claimed to be the return of Christ and the Father foretold by Isaiah in the Old Testament. "

But Bahaullah did not claim for the office of Imam Mahdi which is the topic of the thread, please. Right friend, please?
One has already accepted (vide post #136) that Bahaullah did not claim to be Imam Mahdi , do all the Bahaism people here (mentioned in one's post #138 like @Tony Bristow-Stagg , or @loverofhumanity )* accept this, please? Right friend, please?

Regards
______________
*and others like friend @arthra, friend @shunyadragon or friend @danieldemol (- who now identifies his religion as "Spiritual but not religious" but he has a good knowledge of Bahaism literature) etc.

The Bab wrote that He is the Qaim, and the Mahdi. When the Bab was martyred, Bahaullah said , He is the reappearance of the Bab, meaning after the Bab, Bahaullah was the Mahdi.
In Hadithes it is written that "No Mahdi except Christ". In my view, this is certainly an authentic Hadith. Thus, Bahaullah was both the Mahdi and Christ.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Bab wrote that He is the Qaim, and the Mahdi. When the Bab was martyred, Bahaullah said , He is the reappearance of the Bab, meaning after the Bab, Bahaullah was the Mahdi.
In Hadithes it is written that "No Mahdi except Christ". In my view, this is certainly an authentic Hadith. Thus, Bahaullah was both the Mahdi and Christ.

" The Bab wrote that He is the Qaim, and the Mahdi."

Kindly quote from Bab for his open and public claim for being Imam Mahdi in clear, straightforward, unequivocal and unambiguous terms in writing, please. Right friend, please?
Else, shouldn't one be bold enough to kindly deny that Bab was a claimant of Imam Mahdi, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[InvestigateTruth]

" The Bab wrote that He is the Qaim, and the Mahdi."

Kindly quote from Bab for his open and public claim for being Imam Mahdi in clear, straightforward, unequivocal and unambiguous terms in writing, please. Right friend, please?
Else, shouldn't one be bold enough to kindly deny that Bab was a claimant of Imam Mahdi, please. Right friend, please?

Regards

It is well known that the Bab claimed to be the Mihdi:


"He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islám that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im, 1 your Guide, your Mihdí, 2 your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muḥammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 139

 

[paarsurrey]

#141 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 11:36 PM

Yes, you are correct, and Baha'u'llah also wrote that Muhammad claimed to be the return of all the Prophets of the past:

“Furthermore, it is evident to thee that the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness. These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attribute, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers!” 26 For they one and all summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the Unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of Prophethood, and honoured with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by ‘Alí. Sayings such as this, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the day-springs of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but one.” 27 Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muhammad is our first, Muhammad our last, Muhammad our all.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp, 152-153

Trailblazer wrote," Baha'u'llah also wrote that Muhammad claimed to be the return of all the Prophets of the past."

Please quote in this connection from Quran the first and the foremost source of guidance whatever the denomination of Islam, please.
Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It is well known that the Bab claimed to be the Mihdi:


"He Who hath revealed the Qur’án unto Muḥammad, the Apostle of God, ordaining in the Faith of Islám that which was pleasing unto Him, hath likewise revealed the Bayán, in the manner ye have been promised, unto Him Who is your Qá’im, 1 your Guide, your Mihdí, 2 your Lord, Him Whom ye acclaim as the manifestation of God’s most excellent titles. Verily the equivalent of that which God revealed unto Muḥammad during twenty-three years, hath been revealed unto Me within the space of two days and two nights. However, as ordained by God, no distinction is to be drawn between the two. He, in truth, hath power over all things."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of the Báb, Page 139

InvestigateTruth wrote, " It is well known that the Bab claimed to be the Mihdi"

But one could not quote from Bab claiming for himself being Imam Mahdi so it is wrong to state that it is well-known, no sir, it is just wishful thinking of Bahaism people or mere a conjecture, I understand. Right, please?
Nevertheless, one has a right to believe whatever one wants without reasons or basis, if one so likes. Right, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Please quote in this connection from Quran the first and the foremost source of guidance whatever the denomination of Islam, please.

I am sorry, but I am not familiar enough with the Qur'an to quote it from there.

Maybe @ adrian009, @ Tony Bristow-Stagg , and @ loverofhumanity can find it in the Qur'an and quote it.