What is God responsible for?

[URAVIP2ME]

......................
Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"
But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

Please notice God's purpose for Earth as found at Genesis 1:28 because people were only to reproduce until Earth was full, Earth was populated.
God did Not say to overpopulate or over fill Earth but that the time would come when reproduction would cease on Earth.

Please notice who challenges God in the book of Job: it is Satan.
Satan also challenges Job (Job 2:4-5) and by way of extension Satan challenges us.
'Touch our flesh....." ( loose physical health ) and we would Not serve God, we would stop serving God.
Both faithful Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.

Remember the consequences for Adam ______________
'Death' was the total price tag that Adam would pay for his deliberated disobedience.
Remember there was No post-mortem penalty, No double jeopardy for Adam.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place he never was before.
Adam simply returned back to where he started - the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19

'Afterlife' is Not a Bible teaching, but Resurrection is.
Afterlife teaches a person is more alive after death than before death.
The Bible teaches the dead are in a sleep-like state according to Jesus at John 11:11-14.
Jesus learned that sleeping conditions for the dead from the OT such as found at Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Since overpopulation will Not be a problem, then it is no wonder that 1 Corinthians 15:26 says our ' last enemy death ' will be brought to nothing.
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come!
Come and undo all the wrong Satan and Adam brought upon us.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Actually, more than that in Christian understanding. He forgave all of mankind, past present and future.

According to the Bible, God does blot out names in His Book of Life.
Those who commit the unforgivable sin are Not forgiven according to the Bible at Matthew 12:32
Wicked people can be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
In the future, the executional words from Jesus' mouth will get rid of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
So, it is No wonder that Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.

 

[halbhh]

... I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation...

Is the most universal or essential aspect of God we know -- what little we know of God, or what little we agree on -- that God transcends appearances here, is beyond the surface appearance, and causes the apparent death of this mortal body to only be just a like going through a doorway.

God makes death only illusory. Like being 'asleep' even --

=======
"While he was still speaking, someone from the ruler’s house came and said, “Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the Teacher any more.”

But Jesus on hearing this answered him, “Do not fear; only believe, and she will be well.”

And when he came to the house, he allowed no one to enter with him, except Peter and John and James, and the father and mother of the child. And all were weeping and mourning for her, but he said, “Do not weep, for she is not dead but sleeping.”

And they laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.
=======

In the ultimate sense she was only 'asleep', and would be awakened. In this instance back into the mortal body even. As an illustration of the more ultimate or true reality.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I want to offer a little background about the man named Kit that I am quoting below. He is a longtime friend I met on another forum over six years ago. He does not post on forums anymore but we keep in touch through e-mail. He was once a Christian, before he dropped out and became a nonbeliever. About a year and a half ago, because of something dramatic that happened in his life, he came to believe in God, but he has no religion.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: What kind of God would allow so much suffering in the world, not just me but all that is going on with Covid-19?..... Yes, I still believe in God and Baha'u'llah but the very last thing I need now is some Baha'i telling me that suffering is good for me or some Christian telling me that God is loving.

Kit said: I can't really get into that....but I do sympathize with what you are saying. We, and by that I mean ALL of us who "believe', are guilty of taking this God thing way too far as to how we figure God should be, and what God should do. We go and blame God for things which have nothing really to DO with God.

I agree with him that religious believers attribute far too much to God, saying God is doing this and that. Conversely, some people blame God for things that have nothing to do with God. How can we really know what God is doing or not doing? It really annoys be when religious people read scriptures and then draw conclusions about what God is doing based upon their limited human understanding of God. For example, some people of my religion will say that God is sending me tests and they are for my own benefit so I can grow spiritually, so I should be grateful for these tests.

Religious believers also assign attributes to God, such as loving, merciful and just. What is the evidence that God has these attributes other than their scriptures, and is that good enough to believe God has these attributes, when we see no evidence that demonstrates that God is loving, merciful, or just?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I said: You just captured my EXACT thoughts and feelings and put them to paper… why indeed does this have to happen? I hate to bring God into this but if the shoe fits wear it, God. Death is part of God’s design.

Kit said: That's another flaw in a typical believer's way of thinking, that an all-knowing God actually has something as silly (for an all knowing God) as a PLAN. But like anything else, no one can tell them anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Then again, regarding "death" as unpleasant as it is, it IS a necessary 'evil', to prevent the perils of overpopulation. Just that God had nothing to actually DO with it. Biology has its OWN system of checks and balances...sometimes called "evolution"

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die.

But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot love God no matter how hard I try, although I am told by by other believers that if I do not love God there will be consequences, especially in the afterlife.

I personally believe in many Gods and Spirits. As for a Supreme Being, the closest I can come to that is the animating Spirit of the Cosmos (which would be Odin in Germanic religion), which is beyond being and also beyond good and evil, which are human constructs. I just accept reality as it is. Suffering is a part of it, but I don't believe there's some grand design to suffering. It's a natural byproduct, if you will, of the functioning of the universe and biological life. I find the Abrahamic explanation of suffering to be quite lacking, as well as some of the major Dharmic answers. So I decided to just trust in my own experiences and logic rather than following what someone else says about it.

I don't seek to "love" the Cosmos, but to be in harmony with it. I can't fault the present way of things as it could be no other way. What is, is. I strive to be grateful to even exist and experience all that is, which is a gift from Nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

God? Who or what is God? Why does one even believe there is something called God? Why God?
Are you ever asked these questions? How do you answer them?

I have asked and I have answers to all these questions.

 

[Kenny]

According to the Bible, God does blot out names in His Book of Life.
Those who commit the unforgivable sin are Not forgiven according to the Bible at Matthew 12:32
Wicked people can be ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35
In the future, the executional words from Jesus' mouth will get rid of the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16
So, it is No wonder that Matthew 20:28 says that Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all.

But the question would be "why"... since they had been forgiven.

 

[Trailblazer]

God ask us to live in this moment, not in the past clinging to whatever painful we have experienced and not in the future clinging to the "wish" that God will solve our problems.

@Trailblazer your suffering is within you, you are the one who must let go very difficult to do, but God does not harm you. As long as you hold on to your past you will not see the light (God)

Clinging to the past means someone who dwells on the past. What makes you think I am 'holding onto' the past?
I live fully in the present, but it is not as if my mind never slips back into the past, and I have no control over that.

Do you know anything about grief and loss or PTSD? If not, you should not be giving any advice.
If everyone could just let go of suffering there would be no need for any mental health professionals.

I never said that God harms me, I said:

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die. But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot do it.

 

[nPeace]

I have asked and I have answers to all these questions.

Do you mind sharing the answers?

 

[Trailblazer]

I love your quote. I may have an expanded version in my mind so I would say it this way (change in bold),

"those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were spiritually saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were spiritually delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were spiritually freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins. The physical manifestation of what was accomplished in the spiritual realm is a process of receiving the engrafted word of God until it is created.

I really like your expanded version, as it describes what actually happened...
In short, it was a process of spiritual transformation that took place as the result of Jesus coming into the world and sharing His bounties and then dying on the cross.

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you mind sharing the answers?

nPeace said: God? Who or what is God?

The Essence of God is unknowable. The Wikipedia website describes what Baha'is believe about God.

God in the Bahá'í Faith

nPeace said: Why does one even believe there is something called God? Why God?

The reason I believe in God is because of the evidence. For me, the evidence that God exists is the Messengers of God such as Jesus and Baha'u'llah.

 

[1213]

And where do you think that desire to reject God came from?...

I think it is from the person himself.

 

[1213]

So you believe that all the suffering that people have goes back to Adam and Eve? ...

Because of them, people were expelled to this first death where it is possible to experience evil and suffering. If they would not have done that, we could still be with God, in true life. But, luckily, all righteous people have opportunity to go back to life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

 

[Trailblazer]

Adam simply returned back to where he started - the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19

'Afterlife' is Not a Bible teaching, but Resurrection is.

What I believe is meant by the resurrection is that when our body dies, our spirit (soul) is resurrected and passes from one world into another. After our spirit is resurrected it continues to live forever. Please note that on the context of the afterlife the words spirit and soul have the same meaning.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351​

What the Christian above wrote above is congruent with the Bible. The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in the spiritual world, so the body of Adam returned to dust and the spiirit (soul) of Adam passed from this world to the spiritual world.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.

I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body. Jesus is not alive in a physical body because physical bodies do not exist in the spiritual world (heaven).

“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

 

[Trailblazer]

God makes death only illusory. Like being 'asleep' even --

I agree that death is only an illusion, as only the physical body dies, as I just explained in the post above this one....

However, and this is a big huge however, there is no actual proof of any afterlife (spiritual world) and we know nothing about the nature of the spiritual world. Additionally, even though I and other believers believe that there is an afterlife, that does not assuage the pain of loss when we lose a loved one, be it a human or an animal.

I believe death was a lousy and cruel setup, but who am I to question an all-knowing God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it is from the person himself.

And where did the person come from?

 

[Trailblazer]

I just accept reality as it is. Suffering is a part of it, but I don't believe there's some grand design to suffering. It's a natural byproduct, if you will, of the functioning of the universe and biological life. I find the Abrahamic explanation of suffering to be quite lacking, as well as some of the major Dharmic answers. So I decided to just trust in my own experiences and logic rather than following what someone else says about it.

Although it is very difficult for me to accept reality as it is, I fully agree with you. Suffering, and particularly death from loss, is just part of life, and it is just a natural byproduct of the functioning of the universe and biological life.

I do not know much about the other Abrahamic or the Dharmic explanations for suffering, but I find some of the Baha'i explanations that delineate the reason for suffering to be quite lacking, as well as judgmental, insensitive and cruel, so I decided to just trust in my own experiences and logic rather than following what someone else says about it. Some individuals who speak for the Baha'i Faith as to why we suffer and how it is so good for us can take their platitudes and put them where the sun no longer shines. I am sick of listening to people who do not even know what suffering is talk about it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Clinging to the past means someone who dwells on the past. What makes you think I am 'holding onto' the past?
I live fully in the present, but it is not as if my mind never slips back into the past, and I have no control over that.

Do you know anything about grief and loss or PTSD? If not, you should not be giving any advice.
If everyone could just let go of suffering there would be no need for any mental health professionals.

I never said that God harms me, I said:

I disagree that God has nothing to do with death, because God is responsible for the Creation, so even though humans and animals evolved, God is responsible for the process of evolution; so by design God decided that humans and animals would be mortal creatures. The fact that this might have been the only way it could have been since humans and animals have to die so new life can be born is irrelevant, as God is still responsible for the design and the suffering it causes when people and animals die. But we believers are supposed to just grin and bear it and love God regardless of all the suffering He is responsible for. I am sorry but I cannot do it.

I did suffer from PTSD for half my life, but i am free from it now.

It takes years of search from within to let go. I dont say it is easy, all i say it is possible.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because of them, people were expelled to this first death where it is possible to experience evil and suffering. If they would not have done that, we could still be with God, in true life.

I do not believe that Adam and Eve were real people or that there was a Garden of Eden in which they lived. I believe it was a story with metaphorical meanings.

“this story of Adam and Eve who ate from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise, must be thought of simply as a symbol. It contains divine mysteries and universal meanings, and it is capable of marvelous explanations. Only those who are initiated into mysteries, and those who are near the Court of the All-Powerful, are aware of these secrets. Hence these verses of the Bible have numerous meanings.” Some Answered Questions, p. 123

To read the entire chapter: 30: ADAM AND EVE

Baha’is do not believe in original sin, that sin was inherited from Adam and Eve, so there is no need for redemption from original sin. Baha’is believe that man was born good but has a lower material nature that has the propensity to sin. One possible meaning of the serpent in the Adam and Eve story is attachment to the human world, or the material world, as opposed to God and the spiritual world. When Adam was born and entered the human world, He came out from the paradise of freedom and fell into the world of bondage. From the spiritual world, in the height of purity and absolute goodness, He entered into the world of good and evil... This attachment to the human world, which is sin, was inherited by the descendants of Adam, and is the serpent which is always in our midst and continues and endures... It is because of this attachment that men have been deprived of essential spirituality and their exalted position.

 

[Trailblazer]

I did suffer from PTSD for half my life, but i am free from it now.

It takes years of search from within to let go. I dont say it is easy, all i say it is possible.

I have recovered from PTSD for the most part but not all people are the same. Some people never fully recover no matter how hard they try. There is no magic bullet.

This has nothing to do with 'letting go' because that would imply the sufferer is choosing to suffer. In most cases, and in my case, nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Trailblazer]

As for a Supreme Being, the closest I can come to that is the animating Spirit of the Cosmos (which would be Odin in Germanic religion), which is beyond being and also beyond good and evil, which are human constructs

Again, I tend to agree with you. Whatever God there is is unknowable, so I am sick to death of the Abrahamic relogious believers slapping attributes onto God as if God was a person. Imo, the reason those believers do that is because they want to believe that God has those attributes and of course their scriptures support their belief.