France and Belgium acting to stop the Koran burners......

[oldbadger]

I am not. But people, esp. in France, won't easily forget what happened, as it should not be forgotten (not by anyone in the world).

OK. It's not going to be forgotten.... for sure. :

These drawings happened for a specific reason. Not to mock the prophet. I don't believe that. Journalists are a bit deeper than that, especially those who use cartoons AND when using them to picture faults in a religion. I see people focusing all the time on the "mocking part". They miss the point.

The real reason, that Charlie Hebdo made the drawings, was to expose a huge wrong done in the world in the name of Islam; killing harmless people

No.
No!!
I put it to you that Hebdo chucked nasty pictures in its mag to gain attention, flog magazines and increase its circulation.
There are some journalists in the World who write for good and for truth etc, but I don't think Hebdo was 'writing for righteousness'.

How, just how.... can printing nasty pictures further the point that Hebdo was pursuing other than to appeal to Islamophobics...?

 

[oldbadger]

Do I sense some belittling and arrogance here; you feeling yourself better than me, I hope I sense it wrong?

Not at all. You were wrong.

 

[stvdv]

Not at all. You were wrong.

Not even a smitch?

Okay, good to know. Thank you, I was a bit too suspicious. We view this situation from different angles. Whatever way, I hope the world solves it.

 

[paarsurrey]

I was saddened by the publication of pictures which upset Muslims in France, especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people (See below). But not upsetting pictures, it seems.
Now the situation has escalated further and both France and Belgium have needed to act against plots to burn Korans in public places (See below).

Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?



Hate speech laws in France - Wikipedia.
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.


Belgium expels Danish right-wing activists over plot to burn ...www.bbc.co.uk › news › world-europe-54919127
10 hours ago — The plan to burn a Koran in a mainly-Muslim area was described as "a serious threat to public order".
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


France charges man for burning, urinating on Koran | Reutersuk.reuters.com › article › france-charges-man-for-burni...
5 Oct 2010 — A blogger who filmed himself burning the Koran and urinating on it to put out the flames is to appear in court in eastern France, charged with ...
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


Liberté for Whom: How France Has Failed French Muslimstheintercept.com › 2019/02/23 › france-islamophobia-i...
23 Feb 2019 — French Muslims Grapple With a Republic That Codified Their Marginalization ... bear directly on the congregants at the mosque — about Islam, terrorism, and ... In Vénissieux and other suburbs across France, young men burned cars and ... The other tenants inside, as well as the shops below, were evicted ...

" Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.
Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?"

I agree with one.
Hate speech , hate demonstration and hate publications are the same things.
Why do things that disturb the peace of the world? Right, please?

Regards

 

[Revoltingest]

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?

I do.
While I advise against exercising speech in a manner that
will cause violence, I prefer having the right to do so.
Burning the Koran in a public place is analogous to burning
the Ameristanian flag, which is protected speech here.
Perhaps it's not a problem because Muslims here are
more integrated than in France. They've been in SE MI
for around a century, & fit in well.

 

[oldbadger]

Not even a smitch?

Okay, good to know. Thank you, I was a bit too suspicious. We view this situation from different angles. Whatever way, I hope the world solves it.

Yes.
Me too ....

 

[oldbadger]

" Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.
Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?"

I agree with one.
Hate speech , hate demonstration and hate publications are the same things.
Why do things that disturb the peace of the world? Right, please?

Regards

Absolutely, paarsurrey.
Hateful folks publishing pictures which they know will upset minorities, pretending that they are upholding some kind of freedom .... and then screaming and shouting when some single nutcase responds badly, blaming that whole people.
In this case I think that is islamophobia, quote as disgusting as antisemitism ....

 

[oldbadger]

I do.
While I advise against exercising speech in a manner that
will cause violence, I prefer having the right to do so.
Burning the Koran in a public place is analogous to burning
the Ameristanian flag, which is protected speech here.
Perhaps it's not a problem because Muslims here are
more integrated than in France. They've been in SE MI
for around a century, & fit in well.

Oh well.....
That's you......

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh well.....
That's you......

Right...I don't expect Eurostan to adopt our ways.
Their situation is different.

 

[Stevicus]

I was saddened by the publication of pictures which upset Muslims in France, especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people (See below). But not upsetting pictures, it seems.
Now the situation has escalated further and both France and Belgium have needed to act against plots to burn Korans in public places (See below).

Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?



Hate speech laws in France - Wikipedia.
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.


Belgium expels Danish right-wing activists over plot to burn ...www.bbc.co.uk › news › world-europe-54919127
10 hours ago — The plan to burn a Koran in a mainly-Muslim area was described as "a serious threat to public order".
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


France charges man for burning, urinating on Koran | Reutersuk.reuters.com › article › france-charges-man-for-burni...
5 Oct 2010 — A blogger who filmed himself burning the Koran and urinating on it to put out the flames is to appear in court in eastern France, charged with ...
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


Liberté for Whom: How France Has Failed French Muslimstheintercept.com › 2019/02/23 › france-islamophobia-i...
23 Feb 2019 — French Muslims Grapple With a Republic That Codified Their Marginalization ... bear directly on the congregants at the mosque — about Islam, terrorism, and ... In Vénissieux and other suburbs across France, young men burned cars and ... The other tenants inside, as well as the shops below, were evicted ...

If society gives validation to heckler's vetoes, it could be a very slippery slope.

 

[Altfish]

No need to be sorry to disagree with me. I like it that we have the Freedom to disagree

IMO:
IF you think it's okay THEN don't cry when Muslims kill you. OF course we should educate these Muslims because they created all this mess by impose killing. But when there is a tiger in the village you don't go tease the tiger. That is what I meant. Educate them, don't anger them.

That said, I really believe that all these Muslims are spiritual babies. I mean, if I come to their home and make fun of them then it's their right to get upset, as I am a guest. But these are plain narcissists of the worst type killing children over drawings and cheering when it's done.

But we better behave like the grown ups here. This is a very serious problem in the world. Because there are 2000 million Muslims who all get upset about drawing Muhammad. All are potential killers when a Hitler brainwashes them. And that can happen overnight. I won't be surprised. Narcissists are almost impossible to change without killing them. IF we lower ourselves towards their level, playing games irritating them, then we are not smart

BUT, you indicate that I should fear the religion of peace.
If the Muslims are so insecure that they resort to murder and violence when they are mocked, it is their religion that is at fault, not me. If they mock my lack of religion, I will not kill them.
Humour makes the world go round, we mock politicians, we mock family and friends, they mock me - why does religion get a pass??

I am NOT suggesting that you provoke a muslim on purpose but that there should not be a ban on the use of humour to make a point

 

[Altfish]

OK.
So am I right when I say that you are definitely against burning holy books in public just to upset and anger religious followers?

Is that a Yes or a NO?

....... or do you feel that this should be a freedom of expression?

Yes, that is provocative.
But, if I'm clearing a house and disposing of books and I had a bonfire to burn them and I came across a holy book, it would go on the fire with the rest. It does not have special privileges. But I would not film it and put in on Facebook or YouTube

 

[Wandering Monk]

There is no reason why we need to respect other people's beliefs.

 

[stvdv]

" Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.
Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?"

I agree with one.
Hate speech , hate demonstration and hate publications are the same things.
Why do things that disturb the peace of the world? Right, please?

Regards

Easy to understand for me:
To remove a tumor a doctor uses "violence" e.g. cutting open the body with a knife to "cut out the tumor"
Or in a milder setting "a thorn is needed to remove another thorn"

Hence hate speech whether it's considered good or not, always has an origin, which needs to be addressed
Muslims killing other friendly human beings who do not belief in their dogma "don't draw Muhammad" or be gay etc
Are the cause of a lot of anger and hate, which in return ignites a very legitimate feeling of dismay, which turns into hate in some

Not desirable, the hate of course, but the root cause must the focus, and that is "killing innocent humans over innocent actions like drawing M"

 

[ChristineM]

IF you think it's okay THEN don't cry when Muslims kill you.

You would be dead, how do you cry?

But here lies the problem, although burning any book is terrible, peope no not (or should not) commit murder, often innocent victims, in a tit for tat, look at me god/allah/whatever. Aint i good, i killed to avenge you.

FYI

France pays silent tribute to victims on fifth anniversary of Paris attacks

 

[Polymath257]

I was saddened by the publication of pictures which upset Muslims in France, especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people (See below). But not upsetting pictures, it seems.
Now the situation has escalated further and both France and Belgium have needed to act against plots to burn Korans in public places (See below).

Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?

I do.

Part of free speech is being free to say that other beliefs are silly and dangerous. That includes ridicule and mockery.

Now, there is such a thing as 'incitement to riot', but that is only at an immediate time.

If I want to publish a story of Mohammed and Jesus having a same-sex marriage with Buddha and Moses occasional participants, that should be allowed. If I want to draw pictures of the same, that should be allowed.

Blasphemy is a victimless crime.

 

[stvdv]

BUT, you indicate that I should fear the religion of peace.

No, I did not. Could you point out which line gave you that impression, I could not find it

If the Muslims are so insecure that they resort to murder and violence when they are mocked, it is their religion that is at fault, not me.

You do realize that I fully agree with you here, right? And that this is exactly what I also wrote

If they mock my lack of religion, I will not kill them.

That is what I meant/said, we should be the grown ups/wise, and educate them and not allow ourselves to resort (fall back) to their level. Of course Islam has also many good points, that the West could use at their advantage. Islam has many good points, but this 1 destroys all other good ones

Humour makes the world go round, we mock politicians, we mock family and friends, they mock me - why does religion get a pass??

I never said nor implied that religion gets a free pass, or did I make a mistake and gave you that impression? If so, please point it out to me

 

[stvdv]

I am NOT suggesting that you provoke a muslim on purpose

Sometimes, like in this case, I think it sadly might be the only option (one needs a thorn to remove one), as a narcissist is known to only listen to violence (well...in this case even only virtual violence). But even then, better first try all other options. And this has not been done. Governments gave the Middle East a free pass. This is of course a difficult issue, because countries can't interfere with other countries, and only recently (100 years) Islam came more to the West, hence it took some time to figure out the best thing to do I guess. Though politics/oil might be another culprit here.

but that there should not be a ban on the use of humour to make a point

I never said "there should be a ban", or did I?

I just said, well ... you can read that.

 

[Vinayaka]

The bonfire of hate burns high enough on this planet. Why throw fuel on it?

 

[Wandering Monk]

The bonfire of hate burns high enough on this planet. Why throw fuel on it?

You could also make the case that religion are guilty of fueling the fire.