France and Belgium acting to stop the Koran burners......

[oldbadger]

I was saddened by the publication of pictures which upset Muslims in France, especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people (See below). But not upsetting pictures, it seems.
Now the situation has escalated further and both France and Belgium have needed to act against plots to burn Korans in public places (See below).

Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?



Hate speech laws in France - Wikipedia.
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.


Belgium expels Danish right-wing activists over plot to burn ...www.bbc.co.uk › news › world-europe-54919127
10 hours ago — The plan to burn a Koran in a mainly-Muslim area was described as "a serious threat to public order".
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


France charges man for burning, urinating on Koran | Reutersuk.reuters.com › article › france-charges-man-for-burni...
5 Oct 2010 — A blogger who filmed himself burning the Koran and urinating on it to put out the flames is to appear in court in eastern France, charged with ...
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


Liberté for Whom: How France Has Failed French Muslimstheintercept.com › 2019/02/23 › france-islamophobia-i...
23 Feb 2019 — French Muslims Grapple With a Republic That Codified Their Marginalization ... bear directly on the congregants at the mosque — about Islam, terrorism, and ... In Vénissieux and other suburbs across France, young men burned cars and ... The other tenants inside, as well as the shops below, were evicted ...

 

[Estro Felino]

In my opinion these are not manifestations of the freedom of speech.
These are useless violent acts that do tend to create turmoil.
Freedom of speech is expressed through the press. Respectfully and politely.

 

[stvdv]

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?

I believe we should not belittle any Faith nor make fun of it. Faith has to do with your deepest feeling; so it is Ad Hominem attack. Not on RF allowed

That said, as long as Islam, which is called "Religion of Peace", in some countries kills people over drawings of Muhammad, they go against Dharma, as killing another being is a serious karmic violent act. Divine Law makes that reactions are bound to happen. So whatever happens and upsets these Muslims is "self created by their violent actions towards people who do quite harmless things"

These Muslims can not distinguish important facts (don't kill) from less important things (drawing pictures). So, as long as they don't learn these simple lesson any normal human knows, and arrogantly and thereby blindly expect and try to force the rest of the world to go along with their Sharia Laws of "not drawing Muhammad", I can foresee this will continue, until they learn their lesson. Because they are creating this problem, and they twist facts around that drawing Muhammad is the problem. Them killing people who draw is the problem. Drawing Muhammad to point out their grave mistake is a natural consequence. They need to set their priorities straight.

 

[oldbadger]

In my opinion these are not manifestations of the freedom of speech.
These are useless violent acts that do tend to create turmoil.
Freedom of speech is expressed through the press. Respectfully and politely.

Fair enough.
But this is getting nastier, now.

And kit could be overflowing in to nearby countries. We've had a couple of incidents within a week now (UK) and so this could affect Europe.

 

[oldbadger]

I believe we should not belittle any Faith nor make fun of it. Faith has to do with your deepest feeling; so it is Ad Hominem attack. Not on RF allowed

That said, as long as Islam, which is called "Religion of Peace", in some countries kills people over drawings of Muhammad, they go against Dharma, as killing another being is a serious karmic violent act. Divine Law makes that reactions are bound to happen. So whatever happens and upsets these Muslims is "self created by their violent actions towards people who do quite harmless things"

These Muslims can not distinguish important facts (don't kill) from less important things (drawing pictures). So, as long as they don't learn these simple lesson any normal human knows, and arrogantly and thereby blindly expect and try to force the rest of the world to go along with their Sharia Laws of "not drawing Muhammad", I can foresee this will continue, until they learn their lesson. Because they are creating this problem, and they twist facts around that drawing Muhammad is the problem. Them killing people who draw is the problem. Drawing Muhammad to point out their grave mistake is a natural consequence. They need to set their priorities straight.

Hi.....
This is beyond that now.

France and Belgium are having to act fast to stop further escalation of trouble. Folks want to burn Korans in public now.

Those who wanted to upset Muslims with nasty pictures, this seems to be beyond that now.

 

[Altfish]

I believe we should not belittle any Faith nor make fun of it. Faith has to do with your deepest feeling; so it is Ad Hominem attack. Not on RF allowed

That said, as long as Islam, which is called "Religion of Peace", in some countries kills people over drawings of Muhammad, they go against Dharma, as killing another being is a serious karmic violent act. Divine Law makes that reactions are bound to happen. So whatever happens and upsets these Muslims is "self created by their violent actions towards people who do quite harmless things"

These Muslims can not distinguish important facts (don't kill) from less important things (drawing pictures). So, as long as they don't learn these simple lesson any normal human knows, and arrogantly and thereby blindly expect and try to force the rest of the world to go along with their Sharia Laws of "not drawing Muhammad", I can foresee this will continue, until they learn their lesson. Because they are creating this problem, and they twist facts around that drawing Muhammad is the problem. Them killing people who draw is the problem. Drawing Muhammad to point out their grave mistake is a natural consequence. They need to set their priorities straight.

I'm sorry but I can't agree.

Whilst provocatively burning holy books is definitely not ok; "Making fun of" is very much ok.
If your holy book describes a talking snake or flying horse, I have every right to make fun of it.

I respect anyone's right to believe what they want BUT don't expect me to pussyfoot around that belief for fear of upsetting them.
If society is to develop and grow, beliefs have to be questioned and if found wanting they should be called out. Be these belief religious, political, scientific or whatever.
There should be no special exemptions for religion.

 

[exchemist]

I was saddened by the publication of pictures which upset Muslims in France, especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people (See below). But not upsetting pictures, it seems.
Now the situation has escalated further and both France and Belgium have needed to act against plots to burn Korans in public places (See below).

Any actions which upset people, whether by hate speech, hate demonstrations or hate publications, these can ignite turmoil, commotion and unrest across countries, and maybe beyond.

Who believes in Freedom to do any of these things? Who?



Hate speech laws in France - Wikipedia.
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.


Belgium expels Danish right-wing activists over plot to burn ...www.bbc.co.uk › news › world-europe-54919127
10 hours ago — The plan to burn a Koran in a mainly-Muslim area was described as "a serious threat to public order".
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


France charges man for burning, urinating on Koran | Reutersuk.reuters.com › article › france-charges-man-for-burni...
5 Oct 2010 — A blogger who filmed himself burning the Koran and urinating on it to put out the flames is to appear in court in eastern France, charged with ...
Missing: evicts ‎| Must include: evicts


Liberté for Whom: How France Has Failed French Muslimstheintercept.com › 2019/02/23 › france-islamophobia-i...
23 Feb 2019 — French Muslims Grapple With a Republic That Codified Their Marginalization ... bear directly on the congregants at the mosque — about Islam, terrorism, and ... In Vénissieux and other suburbs across France, young men burned cars and ... The other tenants inside, as well as the shops below, were evicted ...

I agree. These are publicity stunts, deliberately intended to stir up religious hatred. Free speech has nothing to do with this sort of thing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I agree. These are publicity stunts, deliberately intended to stir up religious hatred. Free speech has nothing to do with this sort of thing.

Sort of like shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded movie theater.

 

[exchemist]

Sort of like shouting 'Fire!' in a crowded movie theater.

Very much so.

Rather like routing a parade of Orangemen through the heart of the Catholic housing estates in Londonderry, on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne, and for good measure shouting "F*** the Pope" as you go.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

.../especially since France has outlawed hate speech against any groups of people./...

Dear oldbadger

I feel that we should emphasise and continuously remind that freedom of speech outlaws hate speech.

Humbly
Hermit

 

[stvdv]

Hi.....
This is beyond that now.

France and Belgium are having to act fast to stop further escalation of trouble. Folks want to burn Korans in public now.

Those who wanted to upset Muslims with nasty pictures, this seems to be beyond that now.

I understand, that is what I said. Many Muslims did not learn the lesson yet, and even claimed in the news it is their duty to kill blasphemists

 

[stvdv]

I'm sorry but I can't agree.

Whilst provocatively burning holy books is definitely not ok; "Making fun of" is very much ok.
If your holy book describes a talking snake or flying horse, I have every right to make fun of it.

I respect anyone's right to believe what they want BUT don't expect me to pussyfoot around that belief for fear of upsetting them.
If society is to develop and grow, beliefs have to be questioned and if found wanting they should be called out. Be these belief religious, political, scientific or whatever.
There should be no special exemptions for religion.

No need to be sorry to disagree with me. I like it that we have the Freedom to disagree

IMO:
IF you think it's okay THEN don't cry when Muslims kill you. OF course we should educate these Muslims because they created all this mess by impose killing. But when there is a tiger in the village you don't go tease the tiger. That is what I meant. Educate them, don't anger them.

That said, I really believe that all these Muslims are spiritual babies. I mean, if I come to their home and make fun of them then it's their right to get upset, as I am a guest. But these are plain narcissists of the worst type killing children over drawings and cheering when it's done.

But we better behave like the grown ups here. This is a very serious problem in the world. Because there are 2000 million Muslims who all get upset about drawing Muhammad. All are potential killers when a Hitler brainwashes them. And that can happen overnight. I won't be surprised. Narcissists are almost impossible to change without killing them. IF we lower ourselves towards their level, playing games irritating them, then we are not smart

 

[oldbadger]

I'm sorry but I can't agree.

Whilst provocatively burning holy books is definitely not ok; "Making fun of" is very much ok.
If your holy book describes a talking snake or flying horse, I have every right to make fun of it.

I respect anyone's right to believe what they want BUT don't expect me to pussyfoot around that belief for fear of upsetting them.
If society is to develop and grow, beliefs have to be questioned and if found wanting they should be called out. Be these belief religious, political, scientific or whatever.
There should be no special exemptions for religion.

OK.
So am I right when I say that you are definitely against burning holy books in public just to upset and anger religious followers?

Is that a Yes or a NO?

....... or do you feel that this should be a freedom of expression?

 

[oldbadger]

I agree. These are publicity stunts, deliberately intended to stir up religious hatred. Free speech has nothing to do with this sort of thing.

Hi........ that's what think as well.
I was surprised to see that hate speech is unlawful and/or criminal in France just as it is in the UK, so the 'absolute free speech thing' isn't a licence to incite and provoke folks as some seem to think.

Here comes........... wiki!!

Hate speech laws in France - Wikipedia.
The hate speech laws in France are matters of both civil law and criminal law. Those laws protect individuals and groups from being defamed or insulted because they belong or do not belong, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity or because they have a handicap. The laws forbid any communication which is intended to incite discrimination against, hatred of, or harm to, anyone because of his belonging or not belonging, in fact or in fancy, to an ethnicity, a nation, a race, a religion, a sex, a sexual orientation, or a gender identity, or because he or she has a handicap.

 

[oldbadger]

Very much so.

Rather like routing a parade of Orangemen through the heart of the Catholic housing estates in Londonderry, on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne, and for good measure shouting "F*** the Pope" as you go.

Do you think that might upset some folks, then ??

 

[oldbadger]

Dear oldbadger

I feel that we should emphasise and continuously remind that freedom of speech outlaws hate speech.

Humbly
Hermit

Absolutely!
Some folks seem to overlook that when it suits them, I think.

 

[stvdv]

I agree. These are publicity stunts, deliberately intended to stir up religious hatred.

I hope you are right. That would be rather innocent; still very stupid, childish, dumb and dangerous though.

Free speech has nothing to do with this sort of thing.

I agree.Give children 1 finger and they will take your hand, even if it kills themselves.

 

[oldbadger]

I understand, that is what I said.

I didn't think you made that pin-point clear.

Many Muslims did not learn the lesson yet, and even claimed in the news it is their duty to kill blasphemists

Oh dear........ you're still focused upon shouting about Muslims, I notice.
France and Belgium seem to be more interested in eradicating the hate which is spewing from the extremist Islamophobic groups.

I seem to remember that this all started a few weeks ago when some moron (imo) published a picture of a naked prophet in a country where 8 million people follow him.

 

[stvdv]

Oh dear........ you're still focused upon shouting about Muslims, I notice.

I am not. But people, esp. in France, won't easily forget what happened, as it should not be forgotten (not by anyone in the world).

These drawings happened for a specific reason. Not to mock the prophet. I don't believe that. Journalists are a bit deeper than that, especially those who use cartoons AND when using them to picture faults in a religion. I see people focusing all the time on the "mocking part". They miss the point.

The real reason, that Charlie Hebdo made the drawings, was to expose a huge wrong done in the world in the name of Islam; killing harmless people

 

[stvdv]

Oh dear........ you're still focused upon shouting about Muslims, I notice.

Do I sense some belittling and arrogance here; you feeling yourself better than me, I hope I sense it wrong?