Are Religions and Gods manmade?

[Trailblazer]

But one cannot "prove" it to themselves. You can prove some scientific laws. You cannot prove a myth is real based on any available evidence I have seen.

But one can prove to themselves that a religion is true.

Why is it incredible to you if you believe one of them?

I don’t believe one of them.

Well in the OT Yahweh shows up as a pillar of smoke and fire (at night). He rides in on a giant God-chariot at one point. He fights a sea monster at another. He sends his guy (Satan) to deliver a plague to kill 70,000 people. So that was probably a spectacle. A deity can figure it out when needed.

Lol, do you actually believe that any of that actually happened?

You do not believe for logical reasons. You might think you do but there are no text in any scripture that cannot have simply been written by smart people. Taking any supposed "message from God" and believing it's not a creation from a person is not logical. It's been done countless times and we know it's the most favored way to start a religion. It's still never been shown to be from any Gods.
Just the idea alone that Jesus was a "manifestation of God" but all of the endless biblical preachings about having no other Gods or prophets are all mis-translations has zero logic.
What's logical is they are both myths created by people.

That is logical to you but that does not mean it is logical to everyone. I believe that some of it is myths created by people but some of it is the revealed Word of God.

Right but I'm literally saying there is no scripture that could not have been written by a person. People can write text with many layers of meaning. You cannot show a scripture and say "look, this is proof of a deity". Again, you are choosing to believe it's a message from a god.

That is just your personal opinion. I do not believe that what Baha’u’llah wrote could have been written by anyone else.

Uh, the other path is to realize scripture is created by people. Biblical scripture is literary fiction. It follows the Rank-Ragalin mythotype more than King Arthur. It uses all of the familiar mythic literary devices and the authors who wrote the NT would have been educated in Heroditus which was an earlier messianic story. There is a story in Luke that is literally a line by line transformation of the OT Kings narrative. The same structure of " a story wrapped in another story" is shared in the OT and NT - same story about a woman bleeding for 12 years and a child.

I do not know much about Biblical scripture but I do believe a lot of it was fictional stories based upon other stories.

Yes they have symbolic meaning but to take another step and say they are written by a God doesn't have any logic. If all scripture is from God then that includes every myth ever. SO now humans cannot write myths without it being God? What about the modern Cargo cults? What about any modern hero's journey story?

I do not believe any scripture was written by God although some of it was inspired by God and some was written by Messengers of God.

Wait, what? First of all in almost all scripture Gods show up and do stuff with people watching? Did I not just mention Exodus? Did Jesus and Krishna not take human form then die and resurrect then float away into space? Yahweh is doing all sorts of dazzling feats in the OT? So that's a bunch of BS. Or is that all the metaphorical stuff? See now we are having to do all sorts of massaging of truth to get everything to work.
Or, y'know, like the gospels, some really educated, literate person wrote some really good myths?

These are just stories, metaphorical stuff. God does not show up. Jesus said that no one has ever seen God.

Since we already know people write myths with good intentions this isn't an issue. People get together, take their laws, morals, wisdom and frame it into a mythology. This was the way humans lived until modern times. It was essential and most people were ready to believe in some myth. It was a glue to keep societies together. Nothing wrong with it. It just isn't essential to hold beliefs in gods without evidence any longer. We have secular laws and can still take morals from religious stories, literature and modern media as well. Any story following the heroes journey is inspiring.

What happened in the past is no longer an issue because it is in the past. Why talk about what happened thousands of years ago? Religion is not revealed that way anymore. There is some symbolism in all scripture, but the mythical stories are no longer necessary to understand what is being revealed.

But trying to say this is still a message from God is highly illogical. The majority of the message is how bad it's going to be for non-believers, how bad Satan wants to corrupt you, and how important it is to have your "sin" be removed from a magic blood atonement sacrifice. Oh and hell. Are you going to claim all this was misinterpretation? That's a stretch? They seem pretty confident.

Why not leave the past behind and look at newer scriptures? The Bible was revealed for another age, one that is long gone, and that is why it does not seem to fit the times we live in. Humanity has matured since then, we have evolved.

Rabbi Hillell was already teaching the golden rule, non-judgment, obligation to self and others around 0 AD. He didn't need to frame this as a message from God. People already understand this wisdom.
Trying to rescue parts of these archaic myths that work with your religion and get around scripture that doesn't is a ridiculous dance of goal post switching. They are all just stories. Some laws are bad some wisdom is good and all the god stuff is made up.

I do not have to rescue these archaic myths or work with them, I can leave them in the past where they belong because I am a Baha’I and I have a new religion that is much different.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can read some of them here:
Baháʼí prophecies - Wikipedia

I was not referring to predictions that Baha'u'llah made. I do not consider those to be prophecies because He did not give them as prophecies; they were just predictions and warnings to kings and rulers.

I was referring to Biblical prophecies that were fulfilledby the coming of Bahaullah:
If you want to see the prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled and how they were fulfilled you can read about them yourself in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Read it and then tell me why you think they were not fulfilled.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The OT God doesn't have much love for mankind. Yahweh seems to only care about the Israelites which is strangely tribal. As long as they don't practice freedom of religion, then he hates them as well.
He killed 70,000 to punish David for taking a census. Then it happens again in Chronicles.

It gets worse in the NT with the Persian rip-off of eternal hell and Satan just for freedom of religion.

Yes, you’re definitely not alone in that view. On the surface, it seems that way...that Yahweh isn’t love... He does have standards. Remember the first guy to break the Sabbath? He was caught only picking up sticks on that day.
And Moses asked Yahweh, “what do we do?” Jehovah said, “kill him.” (We’re not given any more information.}
So, the guy died. But guess what? Through Jesus Christ, Jehovah has made possible the Resurrection from the dead, “in the Last Day.” (John 6:44] When that man is brought back to life... I betcha anything, he’s gonna be careful about listening to God!

(Consider: Before this guy broke the Sabbath, the penalty had been set: death. How would God look to those “stiff-necked” Israelites, if He had given in? It set a precedent.)

My point is, most everyone is going to get an opportunity to live again! What a promise! (Acts of the Apostles 24:15) That’s why, really, the Apostle John, knowing this promise, could say with absolute certainly, “God is love.” — 1 John 4:8.

But, my saying that evolution working on genetic mutations is, in an indirect way, evidence of God’s love, is not tied in with your statement.
Do you have any idea how God’s love can be understood through gene mutations?
It’s probably never entered into most people’s thoughts. People aren’t even taught about the Resurrection, anymore...only an immediate, immortal afterlife at death, which the Bible does not support.

And, BTW, neither does it support eternal torment. (Death, actually, is revealed to be a sleep-like state. — John 11:11-14.)

Have a good evening.

 

[Mock Turtle]

My parents NEVER talked about God or any other religious matter.

You really can be sure of that - having perfect recall of all your early years? I don't think so. And it might not have come from your parents.

And I have a full understanding of my own mind and memories.

As a child? You had the same understanding as you do now? I don't think so. That is the problem. What we experience as very young children is a bit cloudy rather than crystal clear. You won't even countenance a different explanation for what you experienced.

You will find that most people get upset when some idiot comes along and tries telling them this or that did or did not happen in their lives, when they have no idea what they are talking about.

Anyway, your opinion is noted and since you have nothing else to offer but this constant repeating of your opinion, I think we are done.

Yes, I understand that many will react as such when their treasured beliefs are questioned, carry on as normal.

 

[joelr]

But one can prove to themselves that a religion is true.

We know for a fact people can delude themselves into belief. We have examples of people who have "proven" something to themselves that we are sure is not true. Cults, Scientology, radicallized religious belief. Without good demonstrable evidence this personal "proof" is likely to be more delusion.

I don’t believe one of them.

If you believe a religion is true then you believe something without good evidence.
Personal experience has been shown to be the worst path to truth.

Lol, do you actually believe that any of that actually happened?

Ah, so now one groups God-stories are myth but your God-messenger is legit. Sorry, you're just one of them now. None of it has good evidence and self delusions have been shown to be very common and a part of human experience.

That is logical to you but that does not mean it is logical to everyone. I believe that some of it is myths created by people but some of it is the revealed Word of God.

Logic says these are stories created by people. Comparative mythology, literary styles, extra-biblical evidence, historicity, archeology - no gods. If you want to pick and choose it can only be for emotional reasons or delusion. What exactly is a revealed word of God? What is so impressive to you that you cannot imagine a human writing it down as wisdom for other people in the society?

That is just your personal opinion. I do not believe that what Baha’u’llah wrote could have been written by anyone else.

Yeah and Scientologists think the same about L. Roh Hubbard.
I'm reading Gems of Divine Mysteries now and it's a bunch of flowery prose that just isn't impressive at all. Not my first time reading this scripture. It's hard to read.... tolkens of his power, GEM of his wisdom Wonders of his power...on and on..... Yeah, a person wrote this.
Last time I investigated different parts of the scripture I found the same to be true.
But I'll stick with the fact that he considers obvious myths to be "messengers of God".
sorry, those are myths about sky-gods, demons and how to get rid of sin with magic.

I do not know much about Biblical scripture but I do believe a lot of it was fictional stories based upon other stories.

As is Baha'i scripture:

"Baháʼí beliefs are sometimes described as syncretic combinations of earlier religious beliefs"

I do not believe any scripture was written by God although some of it was inspired by God and some was written by Messengers of God.

Great please demonstrate how you can show what was inspired by God and who a messenger of God is. Using scripture as a source is the same as proving Jesus was real because it says so in the gospels.
Then show whatever was inspired by God could not possibly be simply written by a person with a good idea.

These are just stories, metaphorical stuff. God does not show up. Jesus said that no one has ever seen God.

Except Jesus (your source) also showed up after resurrecting, was glowing and flew into space.
Even worse now you are claiming what's metaphorical and what isn't and are saying your scripture IS inspired by God but all scripture that mentions Yahweh showing up in person is a metaphor?
Is Jesus returning to life as a super-Jesus also a metaphor?
wow, you are so special to know what is and what isn't. And funny how it exactly supports your beliefs? Wow, imagine that.

Yeah, sorry, it's all BS. It's written by people.

What happened in the past is no longer an issue because it is in the past. Why talk about what happened thousands of years ago? Religion is not revealed that way anymore. There is some symbolism in all scripture, but the mythical stories are no longer necessary to understand what is being revealed.

Yes, I get it. Gods are clearly not showing up anymore. So believers have to scramble and say things like "it's no longer needed".
Religion is revealed in no way, ever. These are stories written by men. I see the law system modernized a bit in this movement. The concept that a God is dictating these things and meanwhile any group of intelligent people could easily come up with this on their own makes the God thing completely ad-hoc.
There is no logic in this belief. It is an emotional appeal to an idea of a divinity communicating with men.

Why not leave the past behind and look at newer scriptures? The Bible was revealed for another age, one that is long gone, and that is why it does not seem to fit the times we live in. Humanity has matured since then, we have evolved.

Same logic applies to this scripture. Interpretations or reinterpretations of the Qurʼan, changing the literal meaning of old Persian myths about resurrection, judgment day and hell and endless flowery prose about how great God is. Mormonism, Scientology and the Branch Dividians are ever newer but I'm not looking to believe in obvious fiction.

I do not have to rescue these archaic myths or work with them, I can leave them in the past where they belong because I am a Baha’I and I have a new religion that is much different.

Not really, it looks like a copy of Babism complete with the ideas about God, Islam and re-interpreting judgment, resurrection and so forth. Either way the actual evidence for this "God" who now according to these movements were vastly mis-interpreted which is incredibly presumptious but still equally a bunch of woo-woo.
When there is evidence to believe something that is the time to believe.
Flowery writings and religious syncretism is great for people looking for some woo to believe in.
I'm sticking with truth.

 

[joelr]

My point is, most everyone is going to get an opportunity to live again! What a promise! (Acts of the Apostles 24:15) That’s why, really, the Apostle John, knowing this promise, could say with absolute certainly, “God is love.” — 1 John 4:8.

But, my saying that evolution working on genetic mutations is, in an indirect way, evidence of God’s love, is not tied in with your statement.
Do you have any idea how God’s love can be understood through gene mutations?
It’s probably never entered into most people’s thoughts. People aren’t even taught about the Resurrection, anymore...only an immediate, immortal afterlife at death, which the Bible does not support.

And, BTW, neither does it support eternal torment. (Death, actually, is revealed to be a sleep-like state. — John 11:11-14.)

Have a good evening.

First it doesn't make up for taking all women and children as plunder in all other cities attacked in Deuteronomy. They lived terrible lives.
In the 6 cities where all living things were killed it doesn't help them either because they practiced freedom of religion and go to hell.
It also doesn't help anyone who holds different religious beliefs.
Dying/rising demigods were also for forgiving the sins of the baptized as well as getting them into the afterlife. There were several before Jesus. SO all the other nations with the wrong savior demigod go to hell?
Everyone else goes to hell. This does not show love for humanity in the OT or NT.
Eternal hell does not show love for humanity but shows some weird jealous god who thinks eternal punishment is fine. It shows love for the people who worship the God.
Also stories where the god who makes the rules requires a magic blood atonement sacrifice to forgive "sins" is far too archaic and terrible to consider being a god who "loves humanity".


Oh, Matthew 25:41 - ETERNAL FIRE

 

[joelr]

I was not referring to predictions that Baha'u'llah made. I do not consider those to be prophecies because He did not give them as prophecies; they were just predictions and warnings to kings and rulers.

I was referring to Biblical prophecies that were fulfilledby the coming of Bahaullah:
If you want to see the prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled and how they were fulfilled you can read about them yourself in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Read it and then tell me why you think they were not fulfilled.

Daniel has been interpreted over and over, here are dozens of them in order:

Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

Now you are going to claim to have the correct version of THIS as well. Wow. One really has to bend that truth up really good to get into this movement?

Unfortunately 2nd comings have to do more than write flowery praises about God. A modern 2nd coming could at least give us electromagnetism, relativity and more since we were really close to that understanding.
It's all typical nonsense. Would a God of the universe really fluff around with hidden messages and movements that people bearly notice? I'll wait until the God of reality decides to use empirical evidence since he created science which works so well and surely understands that looking like a myth is only what myths do.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Christians have 1 story to stick to if they believe in their bible.

6 days
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Cain kills Abel
Cain finds a wife in the next tribe.

Yes, 6 days...but literal 24 hours? No....

Genesis 2:4 Hebrew Text Analysis
This is in Hebrew.
See how “day” equals “the generations”?

So “day”, in Hebrew (yom), can mean unspecified periods, as “generations” mean.

Please, you shouldn’t presume to know what the Bible is really saying. It’s meant to be studied, not just casually read.

And there was no “next tribe.” (Genesis 3:20) Cain married his sister. We are told that, centuries later, Abraham married Sarah, who was his half-sister.

You might not want to think the Bible is reliable about this, but do you understand the nature of nearly-perfect DNA? Me neither. Someday though, I plan to learn, the time when “death will be no more.” — Revelation 21:3-4.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Oh, Matthew 25:41 - ETERNAL FIRE

You take that to be literal?

In Revelation 20:13-14, death is cast into fire. How can you burn death?

It simply means, whatever is hurled into the fire, is gone forever, never coming back.

Read the rest of Matthew 25. The goats suffer “destruction” forever. That’s not torment.

Fire in these instances is figurative, meaning ‘destroyed forever’.

At death, people are “aware of nothing.” Their “thoughts perish.”
(Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4) The dead can’t be tormented. You were taught lies. Don’t believe them.

 

[joelr]

You take that to be literal?

In Revelation 20:13-14, death is cast into fire. How can you burn death?

It simply means, whatever is hurled into the fire, is gone forever, never coming back.

Read the rest of Matthew 25. The goats suffer “destruction” forever. That’s not torment.

Fire in these instances is figurative, meaning ‘destroyed forever’.

At death, people are “aware of nothing.” Their “thoughts perish.”
(Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4) The dead can’t be tormented. You were taught lies. Don’t believe them.

Regardless eternal torture, eternal hell,eternal destruction, there are multiple interpretations between JW, and different Christian schools of thought. Either way the biblical God does not "love humanity". He loves only worshipers.
The modern concepts of hell were added into the OT during the 2nd temple period while the Persians were occupying Judea.
They took the concepts from them. Along with the ideas of a messiah, the apocalypse and many other concepts not yet in Judaism.

:
"
During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8] In the Septuagint, the Hebrew ha-Satan in Job and Zechariah is translated by the Greek word diabolos (slanderer), the same word in the Greek New Testament from which the English word "devil" is derived.["scholars believe that many elements of Christian mythology, particularly its linear portrayal of time, originated with the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism.[29] Mary Boyce, an authority on Zoroastrianism, writes:

Zoroaster was thus the first to teach the doctrines of an individual judgment, Heaven and Hell, the future resurrection of the body, the general Last Judgment, and life everlasting for the reunited soul and body. These doctrines were to become familiar articles of faith to much of mankind, through borrowings by Judaism, Christianity and Islam.[30]

Satan - Wikipedia

The earlier creation stories are borrowed from Mesopotamian creation stories. Noah's Ark is actually a direct rip-off of The Epic of Giamesh. SO what is or isn't taken literal isn't really an issue. They are stories same a the Greek epics.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

First off, is Jehovah God governed by time? According to the Bible (the only extant book that tells us about Him), He doesn't age. Billions of years mean nothing to Him.
He installed the processes & mechanisms affecting life...why wouldn't He let them 'do their job'?
Natural selection serves God's purpose, and His love for humankind (when one meditates on what the Scriptures reveal). Believe it or not.
I can show you, if you want to learn about it. BTW, I was taught this... I didn't reach this understanding on my own. But I will be glad to share it with you.

Take care.

So with the creation it took billions of years, yet with the Flood, Exodus, Jericho and a whole lot more it did in a flash.

No bible says he kick-started evolution, they're all very clear on that.

I would be delighted if you could show me, I can then show you if it's right or wrong. This is a subject where we have a mountain of evidence, such as all the different hominid species, some we even shared the Eart with.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Who decided what?

Who decided Bahaullah was the second coming, a messenger from god and could write 15,000 tablets without any approval from this god?

Here's something I asked in another thread and couldn't get an answer on. Can you give us an answer please.

1. ■The oneness of God
   
   
2. ■The essential unity of religion
   
   
3. ■The unity of mankind
4. 
   
5. ■Harmony of religion and science
   
   
6. ■Independent investigation of truth
   
   
7. ■The need for universal compulsory education
   
   
8. ■The need for a universal auxiliary language
   
   
9. ■Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics

Are the above a call for one religion, government, education, language a call for the best one currently available or the Baha'is view?

Would one religion such as Christianity, language such as English and so ob satisfy Baha'is?

Obedience to government means no one can object to what the government decrees, even if it's lock up all Baha'is.

The biggest problem with this thinking is shown in the way other attempts of a one-world government have faired. Bringing together hugely different cultures, economies, people will fail. It's impossible to govern China and Malta or US and Yeman, etc. Having one religion, god, mankind, language, etc requires that. On the face of it it looks like it was tried, Germany in the 30s and 40s, Russia for most of the 20th century for instance. There are other examples, N. Korea, Cambodia, etc.

 

[Bird123]

I believe that God reveals laws through Messengers. That is why they are called Laws of God.
You are free to believe as you wish.

Because nobody has ever seen God and nobody knows what God is doing at any time.

How can you speak for everybody?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you speak for everybody?

I do not speak for anybody. I am just passing along what I believe. I believe that the Essence of God is unknowable and God exists in His own high place, forever separate from humans. As such, nobody can ever know what God is doing at any time, nor has anyone seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sure you did, right here:

My parents NEVER talked about God or any other religious matter.

And I have a full understanding of my own mind and memories.

You will find that most people get upset when some idiot comes along and tries telling them this or that did or did not happen in their lives, when they have no idea what they are talking about.

Anyway, your opinion is noted and since you have nothing else to offer but this constant repeating of your opinion, I think we are done.

You really can be sure of that - having perfect recall of all your early years? I don't think so. And it might not have come from your parents.
As a child? You had the same understanding as you do now? I don't think so. That is the problem. What we experience as very young children is a bit cloudy rather than crystal clear. You won't even countenance a different explanation for what you experienced.
Yes, I understand that many will react as such when their treasured beliefs are questioned, carry on as normal.

Geez...

I post this:

"You will find that most people get upset when some idiot comes along and tries telling them this or that did or did not happen in their lives, when they have no idea what they are talking about."

And you reply with more of the same.

I can see that you are not serious in honest discussion, but just trying to be annoying.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who decided Bahaullah was the second coming, a messenger from god and could write 15,000 tablets without any approval from this god?

God decided.

Here's something I asked in another thread and couldn't get an answer on. Can you give us an answer please.

1. ■The oneness of God
   
   
2. ■The essential unity of religion
   
   
3. ■The unity of mankind
4. 
   
5. ■Harmony of religion and science
   
   
6. ■Independent investigation of truth
   
   
7. ■The need for universal compulsory education
   
   
8. ■The need for a universal auxiliary language
   
   
9. ■Obedience to government and non-involvement in partisan politics

Are the above a call for one religion, government, education, language a call for the best one currently available or the Baha'is view?

Neither one. It is a call for something new.

Would one religion such as Christianity, language such as English and so on satisfy Baha'is?

One religion would be ideal but that won't happen for a long time. We envision one universal auxiliary language but it would not necessarily be English.

We also believe that everyone should keep their native languages, so everyone would be able to speak both languages.

Obedience to government means no one can object to what the government decrees, even if it's lock up all Baha'is.

That's true.

The biggest problem with this thinking is shown in the way other attempts of a one-world government have failed. Bringing together hugely different cultures, economies, people will fail. It's impossible to govern China and Malta or US and Yeman, etc. Having one religion, god, mankind, language, etc requires that. On the face of it it looks like it was tried, Germany in the 30s and 40s, Russia for most of the 20th century for instance. There are other examples, N. Korea, Cambodia, etc.

As it is envisioned by Baha'u'llah, every nation would continue to govern themselves but a world government would oversee all those governments. This is a big subject.

What Will the New World Order Look Like?

 

[joelr]

I do not speak for anybody. I am just passing along what I believe. I believe that the Essence of God is unknowable and God exists in His own high place, forever separate from humans. As such, nobody can ever know what God is doing at any time, nor has anyone seen God at any time.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

except there are many accounts of men seeing God directly from Abraham, Moses, many Israelites and several others and John says Jesus said if you see him you see the father and that angels see God as well.
So now you are going to say all of those direct accounts are fiction because they don't match up with the stories you say are true?

You are also quoting someone who you don't believe was saying true things? Because in between those verses are clear statements about non-believers in Jesus having no eternal life and getting the wrath of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

We know for a fact people can delude themselves into belief. We have examples of people who have "proven" something to themselves that we are sure is not true. Cults, Scientology, radicallized religious belief. Without good demonstrable evidence this personal "proof" is likely to be more delusion.

How do you know those people actually proved those to themselves? Maybe they just believed without looking for proof.

If you believe a religion is true then you believe something without good evidence.
Personal experience has been shown to be the worst path to truth.

I never said that my personal experience was why I believed my religion is true.

Ah, so now one groups God-stories are myth but your God-messenger is legit. Sorry, you're just one of them now. None of it has good evidence and self delusions have been shown to be very common and a part of human experience.

Those Bible myths have nothing to do with my God-messenger.

Of self-delusions are a common part of the human experience that would apply to more than just religious beliefs.

Logic says these are stories created by people. Comparative mythology, literary styles, extra-biblical evidence, historicity, archeology - no gods. If you want to pick and choose it can only be for emotional reasons or delusion. What exactly is a revealed word of God? What is so impressive to you that you cannot imagine a human writing it down as wisdom for other people in the society?

There is nothing in logic that says that the stories to cannot be created by people but also inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Yeah and Scientologists think the same about L. Roh Hubbard.

That means absolutely nothing and it is a logical fallacy called the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization and the Fallacy of Jumping to conclusions to say that just because Scientologists think x and x is not true that of Baha’is believe x, x is not true.

I'm reading Gems of Divine Mysteries now and it's a bunch of flowery prose that just isn't impressive at all. Not my first time reading this scripture. It's hard to read.... tolkens of his power, GEM of his wisdom Wonders of his power...on and on..... Yeah, a person wrote this.

That is your impression but that is biased by the fact that you do not believe that Baha’u’llah was more than a person. I was not impressed by what Baha’u’llah wrote when I first read it either but that was because I did not understand what it meant, so I gave up and read other Baha’i Writings until I learned more about the Faith. Now that I know the divine station of Baha’u’llah, it all makes sense to me why He wrote what He did the way He did.

Last time I investigated different parts of the scripture I found the same to be true.
But I'll stick with the fact that he considers obvious myths to be "messengers of God".
sorry, those are myths about sky-gods, demons and how to get rid of sin with magic.

I agree, those are myths.

As is Baha'i scripture:

Can you give me an example of a fictional story in Baha’i scriptures?

Great please demonstrate how you can show what was inspired by God and who a messenger of God is. Using scripture as a source is the same as proving Jesus was real because it says so in the gospels.
Then show whatever was inspired by God could not possibly be simply written by a person with a good idea. [/quote]
Nobody can show/prove that any scripture was inspired by God, that is a matter of belief; and nobody can show/prove whatever I believe was inspired by God could not possibly have been written by a person with a good idea, as that is also a matter of belief.

Except Jesus (your source) also showed up after resurrecting, was glowing and flew into space.
Even worse now you are claiming what's metaphorical and what isn't and are saying your scripture IS inspired by God but all scripture that mentions Yahweh showing up in person is a metaphor?
Is Jesus returning to life as a super-Jesus also a metaphor?
wow, you are so special to know what is and what isn't. And funny how it exactly supports your beliefs? Wow, imagine that.

Yeah, sorry, it's all BS. It's written by people.

The only way to know what is false is to know what is true. I believe that as a Baha’i I have that advantage, so I do not have to wonder if Jesus resurrected or if Jesus is going to return because that is all explained in the Baha’i Writings.

Yes, I get it. Gods are clearly not showing up anymore. So believers have to scramble and say things like "it's no longer needed".
Religion is revealed in no way, ever. These are stories written by men. I see the law system modernized a bit in this movement. The concept that a God is dictating these things and meanwhile any group of intelligent people could easily come up with this on their own makes the God thing completely ad-hoc.
There is no logic in this belief. It is an emotional appeal to an idea of a divinity communicating with men.

If you believe that you believe that. I am not going to try to talk you out of your beliefs.

My belief in Messengers of God is logical to me, not emotional. It is logical because I understand why God uses Messengers having analyzed the reasons repeatedly.

Same logic applies to this scripture. Interpretations or reinterpretations of the Qurʼan, changing the literal meaning of old Persian myths about resurrection, judgment day and hell and endless flowery prose about how great God is. Mormonism, Scientology and the Branch Dividians are ever newer but I'm not looking to believe in obvious fiction.

If you want to run it all together like that, that is your choice. Too much knowledge can be a veil. Baha’u’llah wrote that and it makes sense, if you understand what He means.

“Know verily that Knowledge is of two kinds: Divine and Satanic. The one welleth out from the fountain of divine inspiration; the other is but a reflection of vain and obscure thoughts. The source of the former is God Himself; the motive-force of the latter the whisperings of selfish desire. The one is guided by the principle: “Fear ye God; God will teach you;” 29 the other is but a confirmation of the truth: “Knowledge is the most grievous veil between man and his Creator.” The former bringeth forth the fruit of patience, of longing desire, of true understanding, and love; whilst the latter can yield naught but arrogance, vainglory and conceit.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 69

Not really, it looks like a copy of Babism complete with the ideas about God, Islam and re-interpreting judgment, resurrection and so forth.

Looks and first impressions can lead one to the fallacy of jumping to conclusions.

Either way the actual evidence for this "God" who now according to these movements were vastly mis-interpreted which is incredibly presumptious but still equally a bunch of woo-woo.
When there is evidence to believe something that is the time to believe.
Flowery writings and religious syncretism is great for people looking for some woo to believe in.
I'm sticking with truth.

You are sticking with what you believe is truth and that is your choice, because we all have free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Daniel has been interpreted over and over, here are dozens of them in order:

Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia

Now you are going to claim to have the correct version of THIS as well. Wow. One really has to bend that truth up really good to get into this movement?

Unfortunately 2nd comings have to do more than write flowery praises about God. A modern 2nd coming could at least give us electromagnetism, relativity and more since we were really close to that understanding.
It's all typical nonsense. Would a God of the universe really fluff around with hidden messages and movements that people bearly notice? I'll wait until the God of reality decides to use empirical evidence since he created science which works so well and surely understands that looking like a myth is only what myths do.

Believe whatever you want to believe and I will believe what I believe. Obviously you are not open to changing your beliefs and neither am I, because I have been a Baha’i for 50 years and I have solid reasons for my beliefs, even if they would not be reasons for you to believe.

The God of the universe has always fluffed around with hidden messages and movements that people barely notice in the beginning, and for a long time afterwards. You will be waiting a long time of you are waiting for God to do something differently. All the evidence indicates that God has always revealed Himself by sending Messengers who establish religions so there is no reason to believe that God is suddenly going to change His Method.

 

[Trailblazer]

except there are many accounts of men seeing God directly from Abraham, Moses, many Israelites and several others.

I do not believe those stories, they are just stories.

and John says Jesus said if you see him you see the father and that angels see God as well.

That is absolutely correct. Since Jesus was a mirror image of God, seeing Jesus was akin to seeing God, but in Jesus only the attributes of God were seen, not the Essence if God, so Jesus was God manifesting God's attributes in the flesh. The Essence of God forever remains a mystery.

So now you are going to say all of those direct accounts are fiction because they don't match up with the stories you say are true?

That's right, I am going to say they are fiction, because nobody has ever seen God. The most I would believe is that the Israelites heard God's Voice but even that is a stretch.

You are also quoting someone who you don't believe was saying true things? Because in between those verses are clear statements about non-believers in Jesus having no eternal life and getting the wrath of God.

I do not know what verses you are referring to, but I believe there has been an update. Eternal life now comes through belief in Baha'u'llah, but I cannot say that it cannot also be attained through Jesus, and I cannot say that nonbelievers have no chance of eternal life. Baha’is do not believe that heaven is a geographical location, but a Baha’i once asked the Guardian of the Baha’i Faith (Shoghi Effendi) how to get to heaven, and here was his answer...

"To 'get to heaven' as you say is dependent on two things--faith in the Manifestation of God in His Day, in other words in this age in Bahá'u'lláh; and good deeds, in other words living to the best of our ability a noble life and doing unto others as we would be done by. But we must always remember that our existence and everything we have or ever will have is dependent upon the mercy of God and His bounty, and therefore He can accept into His heaven, which is really nearness to Him, even the lowliest if He pleases. We always have the hope of receiving His mercy if we reach out for it."

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, January 12, 1957)

Lights of Guidance (second part): A Bahá'í Reference File