Abortion

[Kenny]

Well, obviously that isn't true, objectively.

But I guess that doesn't matter much to religious folks.
Fetal children do not breathe. Fetal children aren't protected by the same legal rights born people have.

"Pro-life" people will go to great lengths to protect fetal children. Too bad they take so much less interest in the born children. I find this most notable concerning immigrant children.
Tom

And that is why you believe two wrongs make a right. You have no regard to life.

 

[columbus]

And that is why you believe two wrongs make a right. You have no regard to life.

That's not true either.
You are the one with little regard for life, as we know it. You think that it's the afterlife that matters. I don't. I think that it's this temporal life that matters. I don't believe in heaven. Death is the end of us as individuals, that's why I oppose human beings feeling entitled to choose death for other human beings.

That's why I opposed the Bush wars and Trump reigniting conflict in the Middle East. It's why I oppose capital punishment. It's why I oppose capitalistic healthcare. And a raft of other Prodeath policies that conservative Christian people tend to support.
I see absolutely no reason to believe that there's a God who cares about anything or will Save us from anything. We have to do it for ourselves, or it just won't happen.

So, tell me again. Why is it wrong for parents to get their kids straight into Heaven, without the risk of anything going "wrong"?
Tom

 

[Deeje]

This is about the Christian obsession with abortion in America.

1. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.
2. This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.
3. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.
4. As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.
5. So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

My question is: Why are Christians so adamant about preventing women from having abortions? I’m looking at this from the point of view of the abortionee. (unborn child)

This is a good question and one that is hard to answer if one subscribes to the beliefs you outline.

If I may address your points....
1. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.

Most people have a misconception about what is called "original sin".
King David put it this way....Psalm 51:5....
"Look! I was born guilty of error,
And my mother conceived me in sin."

What is "sin" anyway? According to Paul, sin is an "inheritance" from Adam, passed down through generations in a gene pool that affects all of us down to this day. (Romans 5:12)
The word is an archery term meaning "to miss the mark"...so what mark are we all missing?

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". (Romans 3:23) We are no longer 'perfect' in body and spirit. We have only an inheritance of sin causing death.

2. This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.

No it doesn't. David lamented that sin is something we are born with, a defect that prevents us from fully reflecting God's glory. That is why it can be said that babies are born 'sinful'....all have to fight the inclination that sin produces in us. This "sin" is not the same as the one we commit deliberately. That is a sin we answer for....'original sin' is not our fault, but God teaches us how to resist its leanings.

3. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.

It is true that those chosen for life in heaven become sinless as soon as they shed their mortal flesh. But not all are bound for heaven. If God had wanted us in heaven, he would have put us there in the first place, like he did the angels. God designed humans to live on earth...forever. This is what Genesis tells us. Removing sin from humankind will take 1,000 years according to Revelation.

4. As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.

Heaven is actually a hive of activity. God is a worker and every one of his children has an assignment. He didn't put humans on earth to sit around blissfully eating plums all day.....we had a work assignment too.
Where do people get this blissful nothingness of heaven from? Certainly not the Bible.

5. So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

It is certainly a different experience of life from what the scriptures describe, and only spirit beings can occupy that space....but then earth was supposed to be an eternal paradise, so how come we transferred that life to heaven when God promised a wonderful life for the majority of us right here?

Revelation 21:2-4 tells us what the apostle John saw as the outcome of God's purpose, once the earth was cleansed of all wickedness and those who oppose the rulership of his son....

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

What a beautiful scene! Jesus and his bride (his fellow priests and rulers, God's chosen ones, Revelation 20:6) are seen bringing the blessings of the Kingdom to "mankind". With what result? God is now with his people, and he will remove all suffering and pain by removing what causes it. Jesus came to deliver us from that original sin of Adam. He paid with his life to get it all back for us....everlasting life in paradise. This former life with all its trauma, will be a thing of the past....never to be experienced again! Isn't that good news?

 

[Kenny]

So, tell me again. Why is it wrong for parents to get their kids straight into Heaven, without the risk of anything going "wrong"?
Tom

circular

 

[pearl]

Not only that, I think you entirely ignore the fact that there's a recently impregnated girl here, who's life and how it goes is also in question.

We some how get so caught up in the legal, moral issues we forget there are two lives here to be deprived of their 'becoming'.

 

[Messianic Israelite]

This is about the Christian obsession with abortion in America.

1. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.
2. This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.
3. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.
4. As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.
5. So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

My question is: Why are Christians so adamant about preventing women from having abortions? I’m looking at this from the point of view of the abortionee. (unborn child)

Ezekiel 18:20 says:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

It's a horrible evil to terminate an innocent life. They should be given the same opportunity as the living, to experience life and bring their lives in to a state pleasing to Almighty Yahweh. Why should an innoncent child have to die because one or both their parents, or even someone else, chooses that they should no longer live? It's wrong.

 

[RabbiO]

Ezekiel 18:20 says:
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die: the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

It's a horrible evil to terminate an innocent life. They should be given the same opportunity as the living, to experience life and bring their lives in to a state pleasing to Almighty Yahweh. Why should an innoncent child have to die because one or both their parents, or even someone else, chooses that they should no longer live? It's wrong.

So how would you deal with an ectopic pregnancy?

 

[Glaurung]

This is about the Christian obsession with abortion in America.

Pro-life Christians believe that it is morally repugnant to take the lives of unborn children.

• Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.

• This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.

Original sin is the loss of original justice initially possessed by Adam and Eve. It is 'acquired' on conception, not birth. I put acquired in quotation marks as original sin is better understood as a lack of sanctifying grace rather than an actual demerit.

Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.

No. Heaven is for those who die in sanctifying grace. Baptism is means by which sanctifying grace is imputed.

As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.

It is a place and state wherein one has the direct vision of God. A consequence of this vision is eternal happiness.

So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

It is infinitely better than life on earth.

My question is: Why are Christians so adamant about preventing women from having abortions? I’m looking at this from the point of view of the abortionee. (unborn child)

1. We may not do evil so good may come of it.
2. This life is the one and only life where we can acquire spiritual merit (treasures in Heaven).
3. There's no assurance that the unbaptised unborn will go to Heaven. We hope that though some means unknown to the Church, God in his mercy will impute sanctifying grace on the innocent who die without baptism. But there's nothing in scripture or tradition that promises such an act on God's part.

So how would you deal with an ectopic pregnancy?

Though the doctrine of double effect ectopic pregnancy can be treated even if it means the death of the unborn.

 

[RabbiO]

Though the doctrine of double effect ectopic pregnancy can be treated even if it means the death of the unborn.

Actually, I was interested in how the member to whom I addressed my question would answer that question.

 

[Mitty]

And that is why you believe two wrongs make a right. You have no regard to life.

Did the writers of Numbers 5:20-28 have any regard to life when they commanded the abortions of adulteresses, or when they commanded genocide and the butchering of children and the unborn (Deut 7:16)?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is about the Christian obsession with abortion in America.

1. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.
2. This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.
3. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.
4. As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.
5. So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

My question is: Why are Christians so adamant about preventing women from having abortions? I’m looking at this from the point of view of the abortionee. (unborn child)

@Gerry, would it not have made more sense to post this in the Christianity DIR?

 

[Jesuslightoftheworld]

This is about the Christian obsession with abortion in America.

1. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believes everyone is born with original sin.
2. This would imply, as far as I can tell, that prior to birth, there is no sin.
3. Most of Christianity, from what I understand, believe in a heaven for those who are sinless.
4. As far as I can understand, this is considered a place of peace and bliss.
5. So the Christian concept of life in heaven is one that is far better than life on earth.

My question is: Why are Christians so adamant about preventing women from having abortions? I’m looking at this from the point of view of the abortionee. (unborn child)

Because it is murder.

 

[Mitty]

Because it is murder.

Is it murder to abort the pregnancies of adulteresses as commanded in the bible (Numbers 5:20-28 Leviticus 20:10)?

 

[columbus]

Because it is murder.

Personally, I'm a pretty hardcore Prolifer. I oppose people choosing death for other people. It goes way beyond elective abortions. I'm more Prolifer than most conservative Christian folks.
But I find the word murder unhelpful in this conversation. It's too much about emotional response and not enough about objective meaning. Technically, in the USA, any abortion within RvW guidelines is legal and therefore not murder. But then, so is capital punishment which I oppose as well. But I don't call it murder, because it's legal.
Tom

 

[Messianic Israelite]

So how would you deal with an ectopic pregnancy?

Hi RabbiO. Good afternoon. Sorry, I missed your post. I only re-visited this thread by chance. Sadly, no medical technology currently exists to move an ectopic pregnancy from the fallopian tubes to the uterus but expectant management would probably be preferred. The term ‘expectant management’ is usually defined as watchful waiting or close monitoring by medical professionals instead of immediate treatment. Thus these pregnancies will end naturally. It's psychologically draining to destroy a fertilised egg and it has consequences. But we would say pray about it and have faith. Rachel could have saved her life alive if she were to have gotten an abortion before giving birth at Ephrath, but then Benjamin wouldn't have been born, one of the tribes of Israel.

 

[columbus]

Hi RabbiO. Good afternoon. Sorry, I missed your post. I only re-visited this thread by chance. Sadly, no medical technology currently exists to move an ectopic pregnancy from the fallopian tubes to the uterus but expectant management would probably be preferred. The term ‘expectant management’ is usually defined as watchful waiting or close monitoring by medical professionals instead of immediate treatment. Thus these pregnancies will end naturally. It's psychologically draining to destroy a fertilised egg and it has consequences. But we would say pray about it and have faith. Rachel could have saved her life alive if she were to have gotten an abortion before giving birth at Ephrath, but then Benjamin wouldn't have been born, one of the tribes of Israel.

You might want to learn more about the medical issues involved with ectopic pregnancy.
The usual outcome is that the child develops until s/he outgrows the fallopian tube. Then the tube ruptures causing the baby's death. That leaves a woman with a decomposing corpse in her abdomen, small but very deadly. She will almost certainly die a long, slow, painful death. You might not understand that, but it remains true.

Your "expectant management" is nothing more than a primitive plan for standing around while a mother dies in agony. Thank God most modern people won't allow your religious beliefs to interfere in medical treatments, because we are far too Pro-life.
Tom

 

[Messianic Israelite]

You might want to learn more about the medical issues involved with ectopic pregnancy.
The usual outcome is that the child develops until s/he outgrows the fallopian tube. Then the tube ruptures causing the baby's death. That leaves a woman with a decomposing corpse in her abdomen, small but very deadly. She will almost certainly die a long, slow, painful death. You might not understand that, but it remains true.

Your "expectant management" is nothing more than a primitive plan for standing around while a mother dies in agony. Thank God most modern people won't allow your religious beliefs to interfere in medical treatments, because we are far too Pro-life.
Tom

Hi Colombus. Good afternoon. Research has shown that, in patients with an ectopic pregnancy who are properly assessed and their pregnancy hormone level (beta hCG) is dropping, up to 50% of these pregnancies will end naturally and there will be no need for an operation or a drug to treat the condition. But you are right, I have never heard of ectopic pregnancy before today. I would have to consult on my faith's opinion, but your concern comes about because you have no faith in Yahweh. In my faith we have faith in Yahweh.

 

[columbus]

I have never heard of ectopic pregnancy before today.

Research has shown that, in patients with an ectopic pregnancy who are properly assessed and their pregnancy hormone level (beta hCG) is dropping, up to 50% of these pregnancies will end naturally and there will be no need for an operation or a drug to treat the condition.

Do you seriously expect me to believe that in less than one day you became an expert on such an issue?
I don't.

What I do believe is that you quickly searched for an internet answer that protected your religion by telling you things that aren't true.

In my faith we have faith in Yahweh.

And you've just demonstrated to me that your faith is based on wishful thinking and ego. Don't get me wrong, that's not personal. It's what I generally find among religionists. You just made it unusually clear.
Tom

 

[Messianic Israelite]

Do you seriously expect me to believe that in less than one day you became an expert on such an issue?
I don't.

What I do believe is that you quickly searched for an internet answer that protected your religion by telling you things that aren't true.


And you've just demonstrated to me that your faith is based on wishful thinking and ego. Don't get me wrong, that's not personal. It's what I generally find among religionists. You just made it unusually clear.
Tom

Hi Colombus. I'm sorry you feel that way. I got my information from the ectopic pregnancy trust. Is that not a reliable source? It's not ego I have. I just believe Yahweh is able to do things the medical profession can't. You believe the medical profession can do things Yahweh can't. Maybe if I didn't believe in Yahweh I wouldn't have the faith I do. But I do believe in Yahweh and believe He can do all things. But how can He work a miracle, if we go ahead and administer methotrexate to stop the pregnancy growing.

Our Head Deaconess, went in to hospital with a heart condition and came out with a new heart valve. That was a miracle that Yahweh did. I believe in miracles and if Yahweh wanted to He could implant that egg in the womb.

 

[columbus]

Hi Colombus. I'm sorry you feel that way.

No problem, really. Except that I'm a hardcore Prolifer, and I very much care about what improves the human situation and what does not.

Leaving an ectopic pregnancy alone and hoping God fixes it is not at all pro-life, in my very firm opinion.

I got my information from the ectopic pregnancy trust. Is that not a reliable source?

I have no idea why you'd think it was. I've never heard of it. I don't really care. I do know that there's lots of internet sources for false medical opinions which match some religion or anothers faith.

I have a bit of education on the subject of ectopic pregnancies, I didn't just hear about it today.
There are two main reasons for this.
1) My own mother would have died from ectopic pregnancy, back in the 50s, if surgical abortion had not been an option. She and Dad wanted a big family. But their second pregnancy went awry. She survived, and they went on to adopt the flock of kids they wanted.
But if they and the doctors had waited around for God to fix things, she'd have died and that would have been that.
2) I'm quite opposed to elective abortions, but I also realize that pregnancy is a chancy proposition. Some pregnancies are just doomed from the start. Learning to sort out the risks and benefits was important to me, so that I had an informed Prolifer ethic. Not just something someone told me to believe.

I just believe Yahweh is able to do things the medical profession can't. You believe the medical profession can do things Yahweh can't.

What I know is that the medical profession does things that God doesn't do! If Yahweh did these things humans wouldn't happen to find ways to do them on our own. But He doesn't, or can't, or refuses to, or whatever. Sufficient evidence for me that there is no God who cares about anything. By "sufficient evidence", I mean proof.
I have proof that there is no God who cares about anything, much less humans. God doesn't care what we believe, do, or what happens to us.
And ectopic pregnancy is strong evidence.

Your beliefs about Yahweh are strong evidence that your God is a human invention.
Tom